The Valiant

The DS-9 ep "The Valiant" was just on today, and my brother caught a possible flub in the Red Squad rankings.

The first member of the crew that they meet is identified as both a 'chief' and a 'cadet'. Ok, so she, as an officer in training, agreed to participate in the exercise as an enlisted crewperson? That has to be the answer, because the only other one is that the Starfleet enlisted program has cadets and a Red Squad of it's own. "The best of the best of the enlisted"?

Any thoughts on that. Plus, wouldn't Nog, as an acutal ensign, actually outrank ALL of those RS punks? I mean by this time he has been actually posted to DS-9 and has had combat service.

I assume once all the "actual officers" were dead, that idiot kid-captain gave field promotions to all the crew.

Within my experience of AROTC, there are ranks such as CDT LTC, CDT SGM, CDT CPL.

This might be a possibility.

It was the original captain that started the field promotion bit which was continued by the cadet field promoted to captain. Nog probably could have challenged all the promotions and taken command, but he got rapped up in what was going on and original did not have any reason to challenge the field promotions. For all that we know Nog's might have been a field promotion too. (A brevet/temporary promotion as far as what happen with Riker.) But it see like in "Lower Decks" (ensign to Lt.,jg) and with Wesley (acting ensign & ensign) that a captain could make promotions with out approval of Starfleet Personnel.

Assuming similarities with current military, the cadets would have a command structure to begin with cadet ranks - cadet captain, cadet commander, etc. so field promotions should not have been need. A Captain sure as heck could not field promote any one to a captain rank to begin with.

I assume once all the "actual officers" were dead, that idiot kid-captain gave field promotions to all the crew.

Yep, this is indicated in dialogue. The senior cadet clearly mistook the position of captain with the rank, and assumed powers he did not legally have.

As the only actual commissioned officer aboard, Ensign Nog should have assumed command.

However, it is true, the Ensign would have precidence over all the cadets. However, the brevet (field promotion) rank would complicate things, especially that given by an actual Captain (O-6). As for the other brevet ranks, since they weren't bestowed upon the others by an actual commissioned officers, those could be challangeable.

It is now showing on Spike here in the PDT

So the other part; that the 'Chief' could have been a cadet too?

The other thing that i wonder about is those braces made of some kinda metal that would destablize with their torpedo hits? The first time I heard this I thought, "There is no way that the Dominion would have a flaw THAT big in their ship designs." Although my brother says that when you have disposable soldiers, then you don't really need to have 'indestructable' ships, just fast ones with lots of guns!

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Originally Posted by Tricky

So the other part; that the 'Chief' could have been a cadet too?

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Yes. By the time Nog & Jake came on board only the cadets survived the previous Dommion attacks. The original captain was the last one to die.

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Originally Posted by Tricky

The other thing that i wonder about is those braces made of some kinda metal that would destablize with their torpedo hits? The first time I heard this I thought, "There is no way that the Dominion would have a flaw THAT big in their ship designs." Although my brother says that when you have disposable soldiers, then you don't really need to have 'indestructable' ships, just fast ones with lots of guns!

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As I recall, the Valiant failed in its attack and was destroy.

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Originally Posted by spshu

As I recall, the Valiant failed in its attack and was destroy.

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You're correct-- near the end of the episode The Vailiant makes a run on the Dominion ship and fails to damage it, despite their supposed information. Then they are destroyed and only Jake, Nog, and a female cadet make it off the ship.

However, it is true, the Ensign would have precidence over all the cadets. However, the brevet (field promotion) rank would complicate things, especially that given by an actual Captain (O-6). As for the other brevet ranks, since they weren't bestowed upon the others by an actual commissioned officers, those could be challangeable.

Um, no, not really. First off, a brevet is not a field promotion, it is a temporary acting rank. A field promotion is a genuine promotion, but is not permanent until confirmed by headquarters. Both, however, confer legal rank. The cadet was made "acting captain," which in Trek does not confer any actual rank. If the captain had given the cadet a field commission to ensign, he would have been legally in command and his position would have overridden Nog's seniority in grade.

If you use the modern yardstick for the situation, Nog as an actual commissioned officer would have had every right to take command of the Valiant. However, given the cult of personality existant on the Valiant, there is no way the crew would have supported an outsider taking over.

Perhaps 'Chief' referred to a departmental chief (EG Chief Engineer, Security or whatever).

I'll have to look the episode out and have a look

:-)

Cheers

Tas

And I think that the end of the Valiant's crew shows the danger inherient in treating some cadets better than others.

Not that I wanted the 'space cool kids' to all die, but they were so 'We're Red Squad, we are the BEST!" that you knew they were all going to die.

And, after Red Squad members participation in the failed Star Fleet coup, do you really think that they would be given this kind of treatment?

My own thoughts on Red Squad was that they were a remnent of what the parasites that infiltrated SF had done; gather the best cadets in one group as potential hosts, to better control SF!

It would explain how they just kinda appeared outa nowhere, had lots of SF support, but not real support from rank and file officers (Like Sisko).

There is a group, that come could consider similar to this group in modern day US AROTC. IE "Ranger Challange". They go through all the regular training, and courses a normal AROTC CDT goes trhough, however they volunteer to do additional training on the side to hown thier physical abilities, and basic soldiering skills.

However, unlike red squad, they aren't seen as better then other Cadets. Rather they are seen as having more time and trying to be HOOAH. For, there are to many prior service soldiers in the CDT ranks who know what it means to be truly HOOAH. Therefore, it never gets into their heads that they are a cut above the rest of the CDT Corps in that particular school.

And not in their wildest dreams would a Ranger Challenge Cadet be stupid enough to think that they are deserving of being 'Tab'ed cause they did some "Cadidiot" stuff in AROTC.

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And, after Red Squad members participation in the failed Star Fleet coup, do you really think that they would be given this kind of treatment?

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At the end of the coup, Red Squad "vanished" sent off by Admiral Layton to keep them incomunicado. They were already out on their mission when the war started and out of contact until Nog and Jake encountered them.

If you notice, the helmsman of the Valiant is the same cadet that Sisko questioned concerning the raid Earth's power stations the gave Layton the excuse he needed to nearly usurp Pesident Enyo.

I thought that kid looked familar.