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Greetings!
Has anyone ever thought about this? Would there be? Maybe as an assisstant or subordinate to the Ship's Consulor?
If so, what humna religions would be allowed/most common? Unitarians? Buddhists? Taoists?
I just can't believe that all humans in the future are non-religious.
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"We are Klingons!"
Cmdr. Kruge, ST III
* Keeping stricly to topic, and avoiding any reference to religious beliefs *
I think there would be Chaplains in Starfleet, serving on vessels. However, I doubt that they would be active Starfleet personnel, as their religious and spiritual duties to and for the rest of the crew would not allow time for them to fulfil their duties to Starfleet or to the ship.
More likely, IMHO, Chaplains would be civilian crew members attached to the Medical department (maybe answering to the ship's counsellor), and could be found working on any ship of Size 5 or larger (anything else is relly getting too small for the crew needs and ship facilities).
In any event, a Chaplain's duties would be limited to the observing of religious occasions and ceremonies - Marriages and Funerals are presided over by the ship's Captain (or Commanding Officer), and Births are handled by the Medical staff. Any serious religious events or beliefs are usually taken by the being concerned back to his homeworld, or to the nearest convenient facility.
As to their religious persuasion - in order to be effective, they would need to be grounded in quite a few major religions, and working knowledge of some of the smaller ones. The training required for this alone would not allow time to enlist in Starfleet (maybe some basic training in ship's procedures and systems). Similarly, chapels would have to be rather neutral in design and decoration, so as to be able to cater for the many beliefs out there. Otherwise, you could need up having one chaplian for every 10 crewmen, and 1 chapel per race on board - and most ships simply aren't that big, nor have such wide-ranging capacity for all of the religious support required.
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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 06-29-2001).]
Chello!
And there was a chapel in canon..."ST:TOS Balance of Terror."Quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
As to their religious persuasion - in order to be effective, they would need to be grounded in quite a few major religions, and working knowledge of some of the smaller ones. The training required for this alone would not allow time to enlist in Starfleet (maybe some basic training in ship's procedures and systems). Similarly, chapels would have to be rather neutral in design and decoration, so as to be able to cater for the many beliefs out there.
That's also why I mentiooned Unitarians....they'd be the type to appreciate all religions the best (at least Human anyway http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif).
Uh oh....
Dan's personal opinion - I suspect that most human beliefs would survive to the 23rd and 24th centuries. The structures of the religions would be different, but the core beliefs would remain. Contact with aliens would change many religions, create new ones, and cause some to end. I see Babylon 5 as the most realistic portrayal of religion in the future.
Dan's opinion of religion on Star Trek - I believe that the Federation would allow any religion. However, it is my opinion that by the 24th century of Star Trek most humans are either agnostic or atheist, given the overwhelming attitude towards religion shown by Starfleet figures.
Well, IMHO, it's not that Gene's vision of the future is non-religious, it's just thatQuote:
Originally posted by Dan Stack:
Dan's opinion of religion on Star Trek - I believe that the Federation would allow any religion. However, it is my opinion that by the 24th century of Star Trek most humans are either agnostic or atheist, given the overwhelming attitude towards religion shown by Starfleet figures.
Kirk, Picard and company keep their religious beliefs on a personal level and out of their professional lives where they could become a bone of contention, so to speak...
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Even in this age of technological wonders, the human mind is still the most powerful weapon in the universe.
A chapel does not, nessicarily, denote a Chaplain. Most hospitals have a chapel which is just a room set aside for prayer and/or religious services. Any visiting clergy can use it, as can people of any faith. I envision most Starfleet facilities, including vessels, having one of those, even if it is just an auditorium that may be reserved for private use. Basicly, I'd think Starfleet would treat religions like any other social group (no gurantees of religious holidays off, but we will try, just like we try to let the guys on the baseball team have time off for practice).Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Kjeran:
Chello!
And there was a chapel in canon..."ST:TOS Balance of Terror."
Chaplains are another matter.
IMO, the main role of a Chaplain in in environment like Starfleet would be twofold: he would officiate religous ceremonies, and he would offer spiritual councelling. e would be required, as Army Chaplains are today, to offer these services to crewmembers of all faiths.
On a Starfleet Ship, many of the cerimonial aspects overlap duties of the Captain, such as performing weddings.
As for the counceling aspect, today we see many clergy who have advanced degrees in counceling because their job overlaps strongly with more secular types of councelors, and I expect this trend to continue into the future.
Simply, I do not think there would be Chaplains as such, but I do think that a high percentage of Ships' Councelors would be ordained clergy.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
In this case, I think Religion iin Star Trek has taken a back seat, people have managed to get over the My religion is the One and only true religion,and they have embraced the fact that all religions are right for whomever. The way this Universe is set up, Mankind got a wake up call after the third world war, when it reliazed that to go on with such a philosiphy was not only productive, but down right stupid. I think there would be a chaplin, but look more to the support end of a Starship, like Recreation or something similiar.
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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
I've always found the anti-religion aspect of Star Trek interesting...most seem to think religion is somehow inherently bad; primordial superstition.
But there are certain metaphysical points to religion that even the 'particle of the week' science of Trek hasn't accounted for. Religion fills in that void -- albeit unscientifically. It can be very comforting.
It also provides a set of moral and societal norms. There's a lot of opposition to the idea of religiously-imposed norms, but I would suggest that even secular ones are usually couched in the same basic norms that almost every religion shares: don't kill people, don't steal stuff, try not to piss other people off unnecessarily, concentrate on being a good person.
I think there's a place for religion in Trek; it is a great way to flesh out a character or even a race. The different religions of some of our characters makes for great differences in their world outlook and philosophy. It also provides great material for character interaction.
Chello!
I did not say that it did. I know better than to use suxh a logical fallacy. I was responding to Paul's post where he says:Quote:
Originally posted by spyone:
A chapel does not, nessicarily, denote a Chaplain.
"Similarly, chapels would have to be rather neutral in design and decoration, so as to be able to cater for the many beliefs out there."
The point being that the chapel shown in BoT is neutral in design.
Also, many officers could presumedly keep a religious shrine in their quarters such as Spock's "meditation nook" show in both TOS, ST2, and ST6. And, a holodeck can also double as a chapel...just load the appropriate program. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
"Computer, one Gothic Catholic Cathedral. One Priest, Irish. Decorations appropriate to the worship of the Bajoran Prophets. Begin program."Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Kjeran:
And, a holodeck can also double as a chapel...just load the appropriate program. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
Religion of choice?
The only real problem I see is that several of our current major religions require clergy with certain qualifications, like ordination or some kind of testing to achieve that level. Those religions that emphasize individual worship, do not require regular attendance of meetings officiated by an authority, or better still recognize the ability of any member of the faith to serve as clergy would definitely have a leg up in integrating into such a multi-cultural environment.
[sigh]
Life was so much easier when all the people in your country, and thus in your government services, shared a single faith. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/tongue.gif
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
I suspect that as far as Starfleet (and, in
all likelihood, the Federation as a whole)
is concerned, "religion" and "spirituality"
tend to be regarded as "slightly eccentric
hobbies." In my opinion, most of the
Federation's citizens (at least its human
ones), are either agnostic, atheistic, or
subscribe to either some vague form of deism
(with a passive "clock-maker" deity), or
some equally vague flavor of pantheism.
Nobody thinks about it very much. A more
concrete, well-defined kind of religion is
probably fine (I.D.I.C., and all that,
y'know), but getting really excited about it
is regarded as a vaguely disreputable
eccentricity.
Re. chaplains...
It's a hobby. Starfleet doesn't recognize
chaplains, but if there happen to be several
members of the Centaurian Reorganized
Orthodox Congregation of Trans-Gnostic
Believers serving aboard the same vessel,
they can probably reserve the use of a
holodeck (or, in the T.O.S. era, the ship's
chapel, if there is one), for their Tuesday
evening Sabbath services, perhaps with the
"most-qualified" member leading the rituals
(some religions might allow "holo-clergy,"
I suspect most would not).
Whether they get to use the holodeck *every*
Tuesday will depend upon how the officer in
charge of the holodeck feels about Centaurian
Trans-Gnosticism. They might have to
squabble with, say, ship's intra-mural
full-contact zero-G soccer league now and
then...
Okay, the way things appear is that religion on the Whole is givin a passing nod, If you are Christian fine, If you are Wiccan fine, If you are Centuarian Trans Gothic(See above post) Fine, as long as it is not forced on others and rammed down throats it is all good. Now there might be Chaplians there might not be, givin that the Captain of any Starshipas with any sailing ship is also in charge of the wedding (He/She is the Officiator)
Could there be a Chaplian, I would think so? , but imagine the Courses that person would have to go through. Human Religion 101-105, Vulcan Mysticsm 101-110, Regulan Beliefs , so on and so on!!!.
Man My head would spin.
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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Stack:
Dan's personal opinion - I suspect that most human beliefs would survive to the 23rd and 24th centuries. The structures of the religions would be different, but the core beliefs would remain. Contact with aliens would change many religions, create new ones, and cause some to end. I see Babylon Five as the most realistic portrayal of religion in the future.
The best thing about religion in the future, once we've achieved the stars, will be the grudging abandonment of millennial and apolcalyptic thinking. Despite the pessimistic and often illogical interpretation of books like Daniel and Revelation, it is doubtful that God created such a vast universe merely as a backdrop to the happenings on our squalid little planet.
Later Trek is clearly hostile to religion: I held my gorge only with difficulty at some of the rhetoric placed into Picard's mouth during the TNG episodes "Devil's Due" and "Who Watches the Watchers."Quote:
Dan's opinion of religion on Star Trek - I believe that the Federation would allow any religion. However, it is my opinion that by the 24th century of Star Trek most humans are either agnostic or atheist, given the overwhelming attitude towards religion shown by Starfleet figures.
I know many say, "What about DS9? They're respectful to religion on that show." I'm not certain I agree with that assessment. Starfleet seems always to regard Bajoran faith with an edge of skepticism/disdain... and the fact that not a single human espouses one of today's dominant religions speaks volumes in its silence.
On Star Trek, "religion" too often seems synonymous with "fanaticism" and "superstition," while the word "spiritual" has been emasculated by the all encompassing "I'm OK, your OK" pablum of late 20th century psychobabble.
Keep in mind that much of what we would
consider either "spiritual" or "occult"
falls into the catagory of "psionics" in
the "Star Trek" universe. Although the
degree to which psionics is understood
scientifically is unclear, it generally
seems to be taken for granted, and accepted
(or rejected) merely as itself, rather than
as a manifestation of supernatural power.
An inhabitant of the Federation might fear
and/or distrust psionicists ("...those sneaky
telepaths, reading our minds and taking
advantage of us...") but would regard them
as, say, minions of Satan.
Matter-of-fact acceptance of psionics does
tend to undermine the importance of religion,
if only by shuffling so much out of the
catagory of "the miraculous."
Oops!
I meant to say, would never regard
them as minions of Satan.
Big mistake. Sorry.
I doubt anything about Christianity has any similarity to psionics. That shuffling wouldn't undermine the importance of my religion.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
I am reminded of a Voyager episode where Janeway is undergoing some alien religious ritual where the aliens want to explore her spirituality, and Janeway says "I guess I made science my religion." (or words to that effect).
Seems to be a popular faith in Starfleet. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
The recent talk about psionics reminds me of a book I read for school.
Very long story cut short, the author's thesis was that the foundation of investigation of ESP was scientists who were devout Christians trying to reconcile their beliefs in scientific explanation with the accounts of miracles. Basicly, if Saint such-and-such is said to have levitated, you must accept that he did or that your religious texts can be innacurate. Then, you must believe that you can detect, study, and duplicate the forces that allowed him to levitate, or you must accept that there are forces at work in your world that you cannot detect, study, measure, and re-create.
The author's thesis was that the men who began searching for evidence of psychic powers were looking for a universe where their Christian texts were not innacurate, but where everything could be studied and understood.
(As an aside, his presentation was lacking. My report on the work began with "This is the most stultifyingly dull book I have ever read. It was so dull that I found myself unable to remain awake while reading it, no matter how well rested I was when I began reading. This problem was so great that in the 6 weeks I had to read this book, I only completed 3 chapters.")
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Would the Icon rules allow for psionic powers that depend on a God? I don't see Bajoran Prophet- worship having anything to do with psionics. I would be surprised and amused if Decipher Trek were to include mechanics concerning the otherworldly aspects of Earth religions.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
Well ......
Kai Opaka and other vedeks seem to be able to "sense your pah" by placing a hand behind your ear.
Is this a perception granted to them by the Prophets? Or is this a form of telepathy they naturally have, perhaps developed through training they recieve as part of their Vedek training?
As I see it, it is open to interpretation. I could see two Vedeks arguing over this very point, with one maintianing that the power comes from being directly touched by the Prophets while the other argues that the Prophets placed the potential into some or all Bajorans as a genetic trait for telepathy, but it was devloped through simple training that would work on anyone, religious or not.
In an RPG context, powers derived from God (or any god-like entity) can be a real problem. Basicly, all powers available to a PC should either be delivered capriciously, as Orb Visions could be (I'm afraid you see nothing. Apparently the Prophets decline to help you make this decision), or need to be based of of a _quantifyable_ characlter trait (You're praying for a Miracle? Okay, roll against your Faith ...).
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
*shrug*
Re. Psionics and Christianity
I suspect that I am creeping out onto very
thin ice, but I'd say that the understanding
and widespread matter-of-fact acceptance of
psionics would undermine the importance of
things like many of the miracles performed by
the saints, speaking-in-tongues, faith-
healing, and so forth.
Re. Religion and those "Energy Beings"
And the "Star Trek" universe is also
positively infested by "energy beings." Some
might not be well-known, but the reality of
others (notably the Organians, who had a
*major* effect upon the course of Klingo-
Federation history) would be undisputed.
The existence of "energy beings" would,
undoubtedly, give theologians plenty of
headaches. In the "Star Trek" universe, the
ancient Greek gods were really "just"
advanced alien visitors. Some might leap to
the conclusion that other religions had
similiar origins...
I think of Trek religions like the Bajoran Faith as the misguided worship of beings who are advanced, but who I wouldn't call divine. I find it interesting that the Klingon Faith is treated as true.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
Re. Klingon Religion
*dons fireproof suit*
Perhaps because the central event of
Klingon theology is an act of rebellion
against the gods, leading up to successful
deicide?
Seriously, though...it fits (in a kind of
brutish, nasty, Klingon way) with the whole
"Star Trek" notion of transcending the need
for faith, and striking out into the
universe armed solely with self-confidence,
rationality, and the scientific method.
But perhaps I'm reading too much into it...
I wouldn't say the Klingon faith is treated as true, per se. It is treated with some reverance, but ....
The only time the Klingon faith factored in, that I can recall, where it was anything other than someone's spiritual beliefs was when Belanna visited the afterlife, and this was neatly done as it was left open whether this was a true experience or just an hypoxic hallucination. All the groundwork was there for her to just have been halucinating, prompted into these visions by her subconscious, but she chose to interpret it in a spiritual context. IIRC, it was unresolved as of "Endgame" whether her Mother is in fact dead.
On the flip side, Neelix had a crisis of faith when he died and did NOT visit the afterlife he had expected.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Klingon faith is like Romulan faith. It is faith in themselves, as individuals and as a species.Quote:
Originally posted by Cochrane:
I think of Trek religions like the Bajoran Faith as the misguided worship of beings who are advanced, but who I wouldn't call divine. I find it interesting that the Klingon Faith is treated as true.
Klingon mythology holds that they killed all their gods, because they were too much trouble.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
I do agree that Trek is largely about outgrowing faith, but I think I might modify that if I ever play the RPG.
I think Lanna really was in the Afterlife. I actually find myself hoping that the Elder Mrs. Torres truly is dead and proving it, although I'd enjoy seeing a reunion with her in the mortal world.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
I'm not sure I like the idea of a "Star
Trek" universe in which the details of
*anybody's* favorite brand of theology are
correct, but I do find the prevailing notion
that the universe is fully comprehensible to
anyone who is rational and "reasonable"
enough vaguely distasteful. I've always
felt that there is something *arrogant*
about "utopia-through-technophilia", and
that there ought to be things that are just
too old, too big, too complex, too powerful,
too subtle, and too *alien*, for human beings
to comprehend...
...a good "bit" from a Saberhagen novel
entitled "Berserker Man":
A metallic ring which is absolutely and
*perfectly* circular. If, however, you
measure its circumference and its diameter,
and then divide the former by the latter,
you will notice that Pi, at least as far as
this particular ring is concerned, is exactly
*three*.
I suggest casually dropping this strange
alien artifact into your campaign, without
fanfare or explanation. Just let the PCs
find it in, say, a footlocker in the
wreckage of a tramp freighter, with a spare
pair of socks, a half-empty bottle of Romulan
Ale, and a few less esoteric alien odds and
ends. Do something to draw attention to it
(it's wrapped up in a richly-embroidered
piece of silken cloth), but let the PCs
discover its secret on their own. Then let
them got nuts, trying to figure out what it
is, what (if anything) it does, where it
came from, how old it is, so forth... The
mystery ring, incidentally, has *nothing* to
do with whatever happened to that
freighter, or why the PCs are aboard it...
Starfleet Chaplain Overlay
Administration (Interfaith Organizations) 1 (3) (Starship Personnel) (2)
Artistic Expression (Vocal Music) 1 (2)
Charm (Influence) 1 (2)
Computer (Research) 0 (1)
Culture (appropriate religious culture) 2 (3)
First Aid (choose specialization) 0 (1)
History (Federation) 1 (2) (Religion of one planet) (2)
Language, Federation Standard 1
Law (Starfleet Regulations) 1 (2) (Religious Codes) (2)
Medical Sciences (Psychology) 1 (2)
Personal Equipment (Universal Translator) 0 (1)
Persuasion (Counseling) 2 (3) (Oratory) (3)
Shipboard Systems (Communications) 0 (1)
Social Sciences (Anthropology) 1 (2) (Sociology) (2)
Theology (Comparative Theology) 3 (4) (choose specific religion or faith) (4)
Starfleet designates a few of its ships to those officers who feel a need for a chaplain. Many chaplains know mainly about a variety of religions from one species or world.
I didn't bother to check the point total, and I know I left out some skills that are normally required for all starfleet officers, but I explain these by saying chaplains are a bit separated from other starfleet officers. I tried to make the point total as close as possible to normal without adding it up. Comments are welcome, as are suggestions. I think this is the first Overlay I ever created.
Early Life Packages
Christian Youth Seminary:
Theology (Christian) 1 (2)
History (Christan) 1 (2)
+1 willpower OR +1 empathy edge
Fanatic -2 OR Pacifism -2
Religious Family
Theology (choose) 1 (2)
Culture (choose) 1 (2)
+1 any edge, except psi edges for those who are not psionic
-2 Fanatic, Pacifism, Code of Honor, Intolerant, Obligation OR Weak Will disadvantage
Private Religious Tutelage
Theology (choose) 1 (2)
History (choose) 1 (2)
Patron +2, Arrogant -1, Argumentative -1
Advanced Training
Proffessional Seminary
Administration (religious order/ church) 1 (2)
Persuasion (Counseling) 1 (2)
Theology (choose) 1 (2)
Proffessional Career
Starship Chaplain
Theology (choose specific) 2 (4) (choose another (3)
Promotion +2 OPTIONAL: increase rank/ balance with Dependant -2, Hides Emotions -2, Obligation -2 to -3, and/ or Impulsive -1
Starbase Chaplain
Theology (comparative) 2 (4) (choose specific (3)
Promotion +2, OPTIONAL: increase rank/ balance with chronic pain -2, obsessive tendencies -3, and/ or weakness -2
Comparative Theologian
Theology (comparative) 3 (4) (choose specific) (4) (choose another) (4)
Argumentative -1, Rival -1
I guess some of the packages need a lot of work. comments and suggestions welcome.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
[This message has been edited by Cochrane (edited 07-31-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Cochrane (edited 08-01-2001).]
Oh yeah, feel free to add your own packages or whatever.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
I can't believe no one mentioned this, so I'm gonna =)
As we as a species moves closer to science, we move further from religion. There are more atheists and agnostics right now (myself being an agnostic) than there were in any point in history. Just three hundred years ago, the idea that there wasn't a god (or even might not be one) was completely absurd.
As we accelerate science beyond even the levels we have now, I believe we'll move even further from religion. We'll discover scientific trivia that seems to explain a good deal of mystical belief ("See this energy signature? It seems to be released by the cerebral cortex at the moment of brain death... if these readings are right, the last image a dying person should see is a point of light, slowly growing brighter, as if moving through a dark tunnel toward it") Whether these explainations will be accurate or merely fit the expected findings I can't say, but more and more people will, in fact, believe them to be so.
By the time we get to anything as advanced as Star Trek, there will probably be very few believers left, but a sizable portion will, no doubt, still pay lip service to various religions (well, my religion says no pork... I'm not crazy about pork anyway, so I'll go along with it). But those who have strong religious beliefs, to the point of it affecting their public everyday lives, will be most likely seen as a touch backwards, in the sense that we would look upon someone using leeches for medicine.
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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together
Quote:
Originally posted by Cochrane:
Starfleet Chaplain Overlay
Medical Sciences (Psychology) 0 (3)
On a technical note only...
The above skill cannot exist in ICON. Zero level specialisations can only exist as 1 point specialisation, after that level, the player must purchase the entire skill.
In the above example instead of the 3 DP for the example skill the character would either;
a - have the same DP total for the skill total of 2 (3)
or
b - pay a further 3 DP to get your recommended specialisation level of 2 (3).
As you said the points were not totalled, and the template as it stands totals 65 points, 9 points over the standard 56 point template.
On a personnal level I disagree with the over ubandance of zero point skills in an officers template.
I know that should ayone want a chaplain in my game they'll be taking a slightly altered version of the counselor template, as the many skills you dropped in favour of making the character the multi-skilled specialist (the kind that would only be required in a game heaviliy focused on religion, which if previous debates are to be believed would be rare), unforunatly, these dropped skills are the standard starfleet training that ALL officers attending the academy receive, for survival and multi-tasking purposes...
That is however just my opinion, and I will be happy to come up with the slightly altered version and post it here later.
The packages look fine though, although if you are going to have a Christian focused package, then you really should also add either alternates for ALL other known and canon alien religions, or better yet make it as 'widescale' as possible, using no names to allow it to apply to whatever religion is required.
Remember there are people that read the words and take them as written in stone (if you'll excuse the pun), rather than take an idea and alter it to suit the preferred religion.
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DanG.
"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk
[This message has been edited by Dan Gurden (edited 07-31-2001).]
OK, here is my version of a chaplain, based off the counselor overlay, I see it as a slightly more balanced character, which is probably easier to do as (not being a religious type) I see Theology as a social science rather than a skill in its own right...
Administration (Starship Personnel) 2(3)
Persuasion (Counseling) 2(3) (Oratory) (3)
Social Sciences (Theology) 2(3), (Choose Specialisation) (3)
Medical Sciences (Psychology) 1(2)
or
First Aid (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Athletics (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Computer (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Dodge 2
Energy Weapon (Phaser) 1(2)
History (Federation) 1(2), (Chosen Religion) (2)
Language
Federation Standard 1
Choose Language 1
Law (Starfleet Regulations) 1(2)
Planetside Survival (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Vehicle Operation (Shuttlecraft) 1(2)
Pacifist -1
I feel the slightly more rounded crewmember would be better represented in the average game, without sacrificing what they are to effectiveness in a game that doesn't feature religion.
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DanG.
"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk
I have to disagree on this point. CS Lewis once said that it takes less faith to believe in a Creator than to believe in Evolution.Quote:
Originally posted by Traska:
I can't believe no one mentioned this, so I'm gonna =)
As we as a species moves closer to science, we move further from religion.
To believe in a Creator takes only a single act of faith... to believe in the Creator's existance.
To believe in Evolution one has to believe that thousands of events transpired in a particular order producing the current result. Any one of those thousands of events going awry would have resulted in something else, or nothing at all.
This assumes, of course, that what we consider humanity and sentience is something special... which I assume as a default, since if we're not then there's no point to anything. It's sort of like Pascal's Wager.
In any case, the evidence for at least limited evolution is irrefutable... however, it also seems clear that evolution doesn't hold the entire answer. Therefore I personally subscribe to Creator-directed evolution. I also believe that no human religion has pinned down the nature of the Creator... and we probably aren't meant to. The universe was created for exploring, and we were created to explore it.
There: a harmonious combination of Science and Religion... of Reason and Faith.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
Very interesting, and workable...Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
OK, here is my version of a chaplain, based off the counselor overlay, I see it as a slightly more balanced character, which is probably easier to do as (not being a religious type) I see Theology as a social science rather than a skill in its own right...
Administration (Starship Personnel) 2(3)
Persuasion (Counseling) 2(3) (Oratory) (3)
Social Sciences (Theology) 2(3), (Choose Specialisation) (3)
Medical Sciences (Psychology) 1(2)
or
First Aid (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Athletics (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Computer (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Dodge 2
Energy Weapon (Phaser) 1(2)
History (Federation) 1(2), (Chosen Religion) (2)
Language
Federation Standard 1
Choose Language 1
Law (Starfleet Regulations) 1(2)
Planetside Survival (Choose Specialisation) 1(2)
Vehicle Operation (Shuttlecraft) 1(2)
Pacifist -1
I feel the slightly more rounded crewmember would be better represented in the average game, without sacrificing what they are to effectiveness in a game that doesn't feature religion.
My personal take is that ordained individuals would fill the standard roles aboard ship (the Science officer might be a Buddist priest, the Counselor a Catholic priest, etc...) which would be separate from their role as religious leaders.
Many Counselors might be ordained... but an ordained individual wouldn't HAVE to be a Counselor if they wanted to join Starfleet, and and ordained individual who was a Counselor would minister, in their role as Counselor, to any crewmember. The religious role of crewmembers would be secondary and unofficial in Starfeet's eyes
(though likely informally coordinated by the Ship's Counselor).
One of the reasons for this is that with the hundreds of Human religions, multiplied by the number of Federation species would make having the correct religious representative impossible. The US military is having this problem already... and we don't have to worry about Vulcans, Andorians, etc.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
What I meant is this. As a species, we are moving further from religious, that much is unmistakable. Hence, we are moving away from religion, for religion is just the unified theory connecting a number of smaller theories. As we gain more scientific knowledge, science is sure to explain (or convincingly seem to explain) many of the concepts we theorize in religion today.
As more and more of the unknowable becomes known, more and more people will begin to believe that the universe isn't so mystical, and perhaps face value is all we have.
That is the core of my belief system regarding religion vs science... as we move closer to one, we move further from the other, as a species.
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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together
Scene: You are aboard a new ship on its first REAL warp test. The tech said, "It did fine." But don't tell me it doesn't take faith to flip the warp drive switch or that there wasn't a muffled prayer somewhere on board.
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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"
Chello!
If scientific advancement precludes devout religion, explain then, in Trek:
1. the Vulcans who practice a mysticism which borders on religious;
2. The Klingons, who have a mystical religion centered on Kahless;
3. the Bajorans;
4. the Bteazoids; well, maybe they're more hedonists or epicureans, but their rituals celebrate Life.
Just an idea or two.
BTW, Dan, I like Dan's overlay the best (thus far!). Cochrane, your life packages rock; I say I like Dan's overlay better because it is closer to what I envision. Good work, guys!
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"We are Klingons!"
Cmdr. Kruge, ST III
[This message has been edited by Lord Kjeran (edited 07-31-2001).]
I edited the overlay. I figure the higher levels I had before can be added by packages. The reason I didn't have packages for other specific religions is that I am not an authority on those subjects. However, I may add packages for Andorians, Vulcans, Centaurans, Betazoids, Bwuutut, Mensaeans, Setif, Vaan, Bajorans, etc.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
[This message has been edited by Cochrane (edited 07-31-2001).]
I disagree... or perhaps a better way to put it is that we are becoming less religious and more spiritual. Religions developed as a way to explain unexplainable events. As science grew, most of these events have been explained... indeed, they were explained decades or centuries ago.Quote:
Originally posted by Traska:
What I meant is this. As a species, we are moving further from religious, that much is unmistakable. Hence, we are moving away from religion, for religion is just the unified theory connecting a number of smaller theories. As we gain more scientific knowledge, science is sure to explain (or convincingly seem to explain) many of the concepts we theorize in religion today.
As more and more of the unknowable becomes known, more and more people will begin to believe that the universe isn't so mystical, and perhaps face value is all we have.
That is the core of my belief system regarding religion vs science... as we move closer to one, we move further from the other, as a species.
Howver, science can't explain "why"... why are we here, for what purpose?
I find it extremely unsatisfying that the scientific answer might be "because an amino adic mutated"...
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
Science has proven many things in the Bible could have possibly happened for scientific reasons. I for one say "so what?" Science is the explantion of the natural world, our limited explantion of it. There are things out there that science will never be able to explain (like Why? And don't say why not), sorry but that is just the way it is. I'll stop now as this thread is not a discussion on the basics of religion and faith.
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In the Praetors Name!
Okay, y'all are clearly misunderstanding me.
What I am saying is that we, Mankind, the Human race, are moving away from religion. That's point one... and I don't think it's a stretch to claim that. I happen to believe it's due to our discovering more and more scientific knowledge regarding things that before were explained purely on basis of belief in deity.
And religion and spirituality aren't the same thing at all. It's possible to have faith but not religion. I have faith that tomorrow the sun will rise... but I don't think some guy's pulling it along in a chariot. Similarily, I hope and wish for things, but I don't pray for them.
I think that our species will continue this trend toward looking to science for answers instead of religion, and when that happens religion is sure to take a backseat.
Now, that's not to say that it won't be around during something like Star Trek... I just think it won't be the defining belief of a person's life.
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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together