Klingons & Romulans

According to the Romulan Boxed Set, the Klingon-Romulan Alliance in the 23rd century gave cloaking technology to the Klingons and matter/antimatter warp technology to the Romulans.

On Enterprise, however, we did see Romulan vessels with warp technology.

I know this is nitpicky, but I'm trying to come up with an explanation for warp-capable Romulans in my ICON Series.

The way I see it, there are a number of options:

1. 22nd-century Romulans did not have any warp technology; this is contradicted by both existing RPG material and onscreen evidence
2. 22nd-century Romulans had magnetic bottle warp technology (one-way only); this is contradicted by onscreen evidence
3. 22nd-century Romulans had standard warp technology, but it was inferior to most other starfaring powers; this is contradicted by existing RPG material

Regarding the Klingons and cloaking technology, it seems that the ICON material may be correct; we didn't see cloaked Klingon ships on Enterprise. While that doesn't mean that they didn't have such technologies, the evidence seems to support this theory.

The 22nd-century Romulans had some pretty fancy technologies. They had visual and sensor-cloaking technologies, holographic projection, and psychic-operated starship controls. That they might not also possess warp technology seems odd, but I guess that it's a possibility.

The 22nd-century Klingons also had some impressive technologies. They had tractor beams, extremely powerful tactical systems, and sensor technologies clearly superior to Starfleet.

How did Starfleet so quickly surpass their advancments? Was it the alliance with Vulcan, Andoria and Tellar that led to Starfleet's superiority? Was it the fact that humanity developed technology more quickly than its adversaries?

What I've been thinking is this:

Romulan technological development is slow, much slower than human scientific advancement. Their science has developed over centuries, based on ancient Vulcan science taken into their future along the lines of the Way of D'era, focusing toward expansion and conquest rather than exploration. With lifespans upwards of 200 years, perhaps the Romulans felt little need to hurry in their development of new technologies. Perhaps they were more interested in developing their tried and true technologies instead of coming up with new stuff.

The Klingons, on the other hand, are more like cavemen who happened to stumble on fire rather than creating it on their own. The hur'Q Invasion may have provided Qo'nos with warp technology, energy weapons, power production, and so on. This technological surge led to the Klingons' push into space as a major power, but didn't make immediately them an advanced civilization. Klingon scientists and technicians reverse-engineered their former oppressors' technologies once they were driven away by the Klingon uprising, and while they learned how to operate, repair, and even reproduce it, they didn't have a true understanding of the underlying principles of it until decades or centuries later. This led to Klingons as the equivalent of space Vikings, utilizing stolen technologies that they didn't truly comprehend, spreading their empire through war and conquest.

I've talked and written a lot about 22nd-century Klingons, even calling them "space Vikings" before. They are a really great adversary species for pre- and even early post-Federation Earth, they are superior to humanity in many ways (i.e. technology, physiology, aggression, etc.), and they really have no strong centralized government to file a complaint with when Klingon raiders from the House of Duras seize your ship and kill your crew.

I've not really addressed the Romulans of the 22nd century much before now, mainly because there wasn't a lot of canon information to be had, and also because I took a break from Star Trek roleplaying for a while. Well, now that Enterprise has ended and I'm back in the game (so to speak), I'd like to find all my notes from over the years, write some new material, and produce an extensive Enterprise-era "bible" for my Series.

I love the Romulans as villains, too, but for a whole different set of reasons than the Klingons. Where the Klingons are the Mongols of the 22nd-century Star Trek universe, the Romulans are more like the Chinese. They are calculating, they are secretive, and they are patient. They can be driven to acts of extreme brutality, are masters of war, and are as likely to shoot first as not, but they are not savages or bloodthirsty warriors like the Klingons. They have a centralized government, a centuries-old culture and civilization, and a sizeable empire to boot. They clearly possess energy weapons and photon torpedoes (or perhaps plasma torpedoes), they have cloaking devices (which I believe we've only seen from the Suliban and the Xyillians to this point), and they are militant and extremely organized. They are clearly the biggest threat to early Starfleet.

The Earth-Romulan War began in 2156 and ended in 2160 with the Battle of Cheron. Romulan forces were smashed when Starfleet warped in with a massive battlegroup and wiped out the enemy ships. The armistice was negotiated over subspace radio, so neither humans nor their Vulcan, Andorian or Tellarite allies ever saw the Romulans. The Klingons presumably sat out the Earth-Romulan War, but perhaps not. Maybe the forces of some of the Great Houses served as mercenaries for one side or the other (more likely Romulus than Earth), or maybe the Klingons provided covert support for the Romulan war effort, especially since mankind was indirectly responsible for the flat-headed Klingons that were seen throughout the TOS era. Further, human-Klingon relations had a spotty track record to begin with, and the High Council may well have wanted to see the upstart Terrans laid low.

While all starships of the era are comparable to one another, each race clearly had it's strengths and weaknesses. Human ships were more versatile than their contemporaries (equipped for scientific exploration as well as rescue operations and self-defense) and possessed newly-developed transporter technologies and pretty good propulsion systems. Romulan ships were fitted with cloaking technologies and had decent weapon systems. (Did the Romulans have deflector shields in "Minefield"?) The Klingon ships are war machines, fitted with weapons more powerful than most other spacefaring powers, and also possessing tractor beams and (I believe) deflector shields.

The Vulcans, I think, had the best overall starships of the era. They were fast, powerful, sported deflector shields and tractor beams, and were generally a match for nearly everyone else. A single Vulcan ship - designed primarily for exploration, mind you - could mop the floor with any two enemy ships. The Andorians, like the Klingons, had warships fitted with decent weapons and (I believe) shields. I'm not sure about the Tellarites. While the porcine aliens are known as exceptional engineers, I'm not sure that we saw enough of their ships to make much of a guess as to their capabilities.

I know that there were others, but I need to take a break for a bit. I'll come back and write more later.

mactavish out.

Notes:

-The Sh'Raan, which faced down three Mazarite cruisers more or less by itself (the Ent was pretty beat up), was explicitly described as a 'combat cruiser.' I think it'd be Size 7 by ICON standards, which is comparatively pretty huge. However, the Vulcans are also described as 'sticking close to home.'

-The Vulcans were still, essentially, a client state of the Romulans until the events of 'Kir'Shara.' It's likely that Romulan agents were placed on Andoria (they kidnapped an Aenar without too much trouble) and probably Tellar, Mazar, Coridan, the Syndicate, Arkonia, definately the Klingons, Rigel, etc etc. Their military power might not be as significant as their hidden leverage over the region.

-Manny Coto said that the use of cloaking devices in "Minefield" was a mistake and wouldn't be repeated, had the series continued.

Well Hmm tricky subjects prone to fanwars haha :)

I suspect that several of the above could be true... What I should say is that anything that the rulebooks say is kind of moot as compared to your own game. The rule of Canon is also that it always overrules whatever else is out there, which includes any game books ! :D

My take on the Romulans is that they have to have had some sort of 'warp' drive, be that magnetic bottles, low warp or whatever.. space travel is just not practical without some sort of FTL. It Could be that due to their location or whatever the Romulans had no access to Dilithium crystals, which allow cultures to stabilise the M/AM reaction. So they kept with fusion reaction technologies, both pushing them to the heights that were the best they could go to (low warp 1-3 at most) and creating the magnetic bottle, which allowed them to go at high warp BUT was basically a one time only boost. So for example they could leave their spaceport to their location using a magnetic bottle - but then limp back home using fusion based technology, albeit at low warp, which could explain 'simple impulse power' of TOS. Later they advanced the magnetic bottle into a full artificial quantum singularity, which is in many ways superior to regular M/AM technology, at the price of being able to turn it off!

With regards to cloaking technology, well there is a cloak and then there's a cloak... I mean in Japan today they have basic optical cloaks, which are a bit rubbish, but doable. Beyond that cloaking devices are a question of an arms race. So it may well be that Romulan cloaks were quite capable of fooling Enterprises sensors, they may not have fooled others (after all T'pol managed to detect them, and constantly mocked humans sensor technology)

With regards to how the Federation managed to outstrip the Klingons and Romulans, well that's fairly obvious: They were both on their own. The Federation, through their unity and huge diversity of technological sharing, were able to rapidly develop new technology, by combining their respective knowledges together, hence through the assistance of Vulcans, Tellarites and Andorians, all of whom had advanced technologies, meant the Humans suddenly REALLY overwhelmed the Romulans at the battle of Cheron, and what I think set the Federation on their rapid ascent. As the Federation ascended, they rolled in yet more technologies, as they shared with their new parners. In some ways I suspect the reasons the Klingons and Romulans managed to catch up was both through the axiom of necessity is the mother of invention, and just a little industrial espionage! And of course, when you factor in advanced sensor technology, simply being able to observe your enemies weapon / defence systems tells you how you should improve your own!

With regards to the Mazzerite, I don't think I saw the episode, but quite often there can be quite a difference in technologies.. Enterprise, in a straight fight was no match for a Vulcan cruiser, which had nothing to do with their respective sizes.. It was how different their technologies were. The Vulcan's had much better shields and energy weapons. Since the Andorians had to have at least partly comparable ships to have even been IN a war with the Vulcans, and not rapidly defeated, they must have had fairly powerful technology!

On the Romulans and Warp drive: To be honest we have never heard on screen that the Romulans lacked Warp propulsion. We have heard:

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Originally Posted by Balance of Terror

Kirk: "Well, gentlemen, the question still remains: can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?"
Scott: "No question. Their power is simple impulse."
Kirk: "Meaning we can outrun them."

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"Their power is simple impulse" being the key phrase. Not their drive, not their propulsion, but their power. As you stated in your question the exchange was for matter/anti-matter warp technology (and that was, again replaced by Singularity warp technology in the 24th century)

On Klingons having Cloaking tech in the 22nd century: (From what little of Ent I have seen) Only a member from the House of Duras seemed to have a cloaking device. A House established back in TNG to have had long held ties to the Romulans.

So fast forward to the 23rd century: The Klingon Empire and the Romulan Empire exchange advanced warp technology for empire wide cloaking technology.

Klingon Technology advancement, the quick answer: Klingons are warriors not inventor, their technology comes from subjected species or reverse engineering captured technology. This also helps to explain the continued fielding of D7's, the Klingons didn't find a better design until the 24th century. That was most likely due to Federation engineering principles.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

On Klingons having Cloaking tech in the 22nd century: (From what little of Ent I have seen) Only a member from the House of Duras seemed to have a cloaking device. A House established back in TNG to have had long held ties to the Romulans.

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Whoa hey. What episode was that? I never heard mention of it.

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Klingon Technology advancement, the quick answer: Klingons are warriors not inventor, their technology comes from subjected species or reverse engineering captured technology. This also helps to explain the continued fielding of D7's, the Klingons didn't find a better design until the 24th century. That was most likely due to Federation engineering principles.

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'Bounty' [ENT] mentions a Tellarite freighter being cannibalized by the Klingons.

A secondary, complimentary explanation for Klingon technology is that they are definitively not a centralized authority. The democratic Federation and the ogliarchic-fascistic romulans are both set up to encourage the central collection of scientific innovation; Klingons are organized into Houses which we know compete against each other economically as well as politically. Poor houses may not have the resources to construct or buy new ones–perhaps the patent for constructing Vor'Cha class ships are held by the House of Kang and are leased as favours.

Technological advantages would be used to gain power inside the Empire first, then outside.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Whoa hey. What episode was that? I never heard mention of it.

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Caught bits and pieces of an Ep. where a House Duras ship(s) (looked smallish) had entered into the Sol system to ambush the returning NX-01, quick battle with two more Earth based ships then poof the Klingon ship vanish again. With what little I saw of that episode I just thought cloaking tech was involved. If I'm wrong that's OK too.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

'Bounty' [ENT] mentions a Tellarite freighter being cannibalized by the Klingons.

A secondary, complimentary explanation for Klingon technology is that they are definitively not a centralized authority. The democratic Federation and the ogliarchic-fascistic romulans are both set up to encourage the central collection of scientific innovation; Klingons are organized into Houses which we know compete against each other economically as well as politically. Poor houses may not have the resources to construct or buy new ones–perhaps the patent for constructing Vor'Cha class ships are held by the House of Kang and are leased as favours.

Technological advantages would be used to gain power inside the Empire first, then outside.

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Never watched 'Bounty', sorry. As for the rest, you'll get no argument from me on that.

I don't remember the 22nd-century Klingons having cloaking technology, either. I'm not saying that they didn't, just that I don't remember it.

The point made regarding the relative speed of Federation technological development (or the relative slowness of the Klingons and Romulans, if you prefer) being related to the diversity of the UFP is a good one. Of course, mankind made some pretty impressive technological leaps between 2063 and 2150, and all (it would seem) without any outside assistance.

Zefram Cochrane independently developed warp drive technology on a post-holocaust Earth. Over the next 80-90 years, humans progressed from warp 1 to warp 5, and that was with the Vulcans not helping (and possibly actively hindering) them with their research. Vulcans, on the other hand, developed warp drive technology centuries earlier, but only managed to reach warp 6.5 by the mid-22nd century.

Humans - warp 1 to warp 5 in 87 years
Vulcan - warp 1 to warp 6.5 in, say, 650 years

Sure, Vulcans are maybe 50-100 years more advanced than humanity when they make First Contact in 2063, but mankind makes some big strides over the next nine decades, largely thanks to the Vulcans. I always assumed that the Vulcans brought along technologies and techniques to clean up what radioactive contamination remained from World War III as well as advances in medicine, power production, gravity manipulation, sensors, and so on. They would, of course, keep the best and most cutting edge stuff to themselves, but technologies that they had possessed for centuries might well be used as bargaining chips (though I can't be sure what humans had to offer their Vulcan acquaintances).

Moreover, the Vulcans introduced humanity to the larger interstellar community, bringing them together with the Denobulans (and presumably others) before Enterprise left the nest and made contact with the Andorians, Tellarites, and the dozens of others that would become allies, enemies, and interesting neutral parties. I've also operated under the presumption that the Vulcans were among the most advanced contemporary races (technologically), and - as both humans and Andorians seemed to confirm - lorded their technological superiority over everyone else. Sure, some races had faster ships or better weapons, but the Vulcans were more advanced in all areas, and those advancements seemed to always make the difference.

The Vulcans that eventually became Romulans left Vulcan roughly 2,000 years ago. They did so in STL ships. Last Unicorn Games indicated that they got to Romulus via a wormhole that subsequently collapsed. Over the next 20 centuries, the Romulans formed their empire and expanded it to neighboring systems, again [presumably] without warp drive. I'd like to think that the Romulans developed warp technologies around the same time as humanity (~2050, give or take a decade), but - like the Vulcans - their progress was slower than that made by humans. Of course, as was mentioned in a previous post, they didn't have the benefit of another, more technologically-advanced race to help them out by introducing other devices or techniques, but they didn't have the Vulcans to stymie their efforts, either.

I'm going to say that the Romulan Star Empire (in my rendition of the Star Trek universe) developed their first warp drive - powered by a fission reactor - in 2050, and used the prototype to explore nearby star systems. Building a fleet of ships, they traveled at low warp (say 2.5, maximum) to several of the systems they explored earlier and built colonies on habitable (but unoccupied) worlds, while their military forces conquered those planets occupied by less advanced races. In this manner, the Romulans built their empire on the backs of their client races, expanding their reach over the next century. When they encountered other technologically-advanced races (warp-capable ones, typically), they either overpowered them and stole their technologies, or bartered for their advances if they appeared too tough to force into capitulation.

By the time they encountered NX-01 Enterprise, the Romulans had [again, in MY version of the Star Trek universe] either developed or acquired stealth technologies (cloaking devices), and utilized them to explore and interfere without ever being discovered. In this manner, they not only placed [sometimes surgically-altered] undercover operatives on Vulcan, Andoria, and elsewhere, but in fact managed to learn of mankind and Earth, and even put a few Romulan agents (posing as Vulcans) on the ground to check things out. Combined with data taken from the Vulcan High Command and the Science Directorate, the Romulans knew a great deal about humans prior to their first face-to-face encounter (so to speak).

Over the next couple of centuries, the Romulans managed to improve their drive technologies. I am going to say that MY Romulans did so in many ways, but primarily through exchanging technologies with the Klingons in the 2220's. Again, this exchange gave the Klingon Empire cloaking technology while it gave the Romulan Star Empire faster warp drives and matter/antimatter power generation technology. At some point, the Romulans switched from... whatever they were using... to artificial singularity engines for their energy production. Regardless, their warp drives - while based on the same principles used by humans, Klingons, Vulcans, and so forth - are powered in a different manner.

Assuming for the moment that Romulan scientists developed technologies to fool sensors [cloaking devices], I'd assume that - again, as mentioned in an earlier post - they were pretty limited. While they may have fooled most races encountered, they likely would be uncovered eventually (as they were in Enterprise) by the Vulcans. Or perhaps T'Pol was just lucky, as the Romulan spies on Vulcan learned enough about how Vulcan sensors operated to program their cloaking devices to compensate. Hmm...

Now, assuming that the Romulans did NOT develop their own cloaking technologies, from whom were they acquired? Possible candidates include the Suliban Cabal ("Broken Bow") and the Xyrilians ("Unexpected"), though I'm sure there are other possibilities, too. Perhaps they discovered a Xyrilian ship hiding in their plasma wake, disabled them, and enslaved the crew and reverse engineered their vessel. In this way, they may have gotten quite a technological boost, from a new power plant design to photon resequencing holography to cloaking devices and psionic technologies. This could also explain their chameleon ship raider ("United"), which made extensive use of holographic disguise and was remotely operated by an Andorian sub-race [Aenar] pilot via psionic interface.

Though their history as a spacefaring race extends back much further than mankind, the Romulans' technological progress seems to follow a path more like their Vulcan progenitors (read as "slow"), though it was also likely supplemented with acquired technologies (both stolen and exchanged).

Next up, the Klingons and their technological progress, such as it is in MY Star Trek universe.

mactavish out.

I don't remember the 22nd-century Klingons having cloaking technology, either.

They had it by the time of STIII, and played a prominent role in STIV, V and VI. I've never bought into the idea that TOS Romulans did not have warp drive - that's based on a really extreme interpretation of ambiguous comments by Spock in Balance of Terror - but the Klingon/Romulan technology exchange is quite explicitly established in The Enterprise Incident, where the Romulans are using Klingon ships (established both visually and in dialogue).

Actually I rather like the use of the Xyrilians, as a plot device for the Romulans to be filching technology from! Early cloaking devices would likely be holographic in nature, and the Xyrilians is more of a stealth technology: The Suliban technology was far more advanced, and dangerous to give them so early on!

what you've written so far sounds pretty reasonable MacT. It does make me wonder if part of the reason Romulans and Vulcans were so slow in developing technology was purelly because of their long lifespans and mating cycles.. they are basically less numerous, plus, with the dividing of their culture, as it was 2000 years ago, it's not hard to imagine that Romulus has a pretty small population compared to many industrialised worlds, as with Vulcan.

I also sort of imagine what slowed down the Vulcans, in their technological prowess, was because while they were curious, they suffered a little from the V-ger problem, they were limited by the rigidity of their logic. One of the traits I did like about the sparring between T'pol and Archer was his basic ability to have a broad imagination: Not to be limited by what logic dictated was not logical. Humans pushed harder at the boundaries of conventional reality, because they refused to be limited by them. Vulcans through logical deduction had arrived at many advanced technologies, but that can be slow. Sometimes humans just fiddled with the settings and tried other things, just to be sure if they couldn't find a better way of doing things by dumb luck! :) Sometimes it is possible to achieve the same thing, by doing it in different ways: hence there are quite a few different types of warp drive: The warp 5 project was using a linear drive system, whereas the Vulcans used a ring system. The Linear drive was, because of it's crudeness a much slower system, plus the Vulcans looked at it, and saw it was inferior to their technology and it was not the logical end result, as their system was.. However of course, as we know later on, they refined it and ultimatelly it proved to be the best system (why exactly we don't know, but starfleet doesn't use the ring design, which was in the enterprise era the fastest known design!). this is an example of the kind of fuzzy logic the Vulcans seem to have a problem getting.. the 'best' way isn't always the 'best' :)

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

I don't remember the 22nd-century Klingons having cloaking technology, either.

They had it by the time of STIII, and played a prominent role in STIV, V and VI. I've never bought into the idea that TOS Romulans did not have warp drive - that's based on a really extreme interpretation of ambiguous comments by Spock in Balance of Terror - but the Klingon/Romulan technology exchange is quite explicitly established in The Enterprise Incident, where the Romulans are using Klingon ships (established both visually and in dialogue).

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All of which happened in the 23rd Century... ;)

The Klingons of MY Star Trek universe were a race of bloodthirsty warriors who organized themselves first into tribes and eventually into Houses. They functioned at a pre-industrial level (roughly equivalent to 15th-century Europe) for millennia. They honed their skills as warriors, but managed to take enough time to build thorps and hamlets, eventually building the great cities of Qo'nos.

Roughly eight centuries before they first encountered mankind, the Klingon homeworld, Qo'nos, was conquered and its inhabitants subjugated by an alien race called the Hur'q by the Klingons themselves. (Hur'q is apparently the Klingon-native word for "outsider.") For a period of several years, the Klingons fought against their oppressors, staging raid upon raid against their bases. Finally, in a coordinated attack by tens of thousands of Klingons armed with bat'leths and other melee weapons, the Hur'q were driven out, fleeing Qo'nos never to return.

The Hur'q presence, however, was not so easily forgotten. The implements of their conquest - primarily warp-capable spacecraft, energy weapons, and computers - were scattered across the face of the planet. Scars from their weapons may still be seen to this day, and many memorials to the lost ancient warriors stand on all continents.

While known for their fierceness and dedication to battle, there are among them those Klingons whose primary drive is not military conquest, but scientific conquest. The wise men of many Klingon Houses studied the Hur'q weapons and other technologies, and eventually (after decades of research) some managed to gain a rudimentary understanding of their functions. Weapons, of course, were quickly understood and the elite warriors of many Houses carried Hur'q energy pistols and rifles into battle, though most still relied primarily on their bat'leths to lay their enemies low.

The true breakthroughs came, however, when one of the Klingon scientists uncovered software in the Hur'q computers that translated the systems into his particular dialect of the Klingon language. This single event revealed millennia of scientific and technological study to the fortunate Klingon. Though his intellect was great, the sum total of Hur'q technological knowledge was simply too vast. However, as he studied the basic concepts of science - biology, chemistry, physics - his understanding grew. He became a teacher and spread these ideas throughout the lands controlled by his master's House. In time, the more advanced concepts were understood by students who stood on the shoulders of their wizened teachers, and eventually - after nearly six centuries - the science of the Hur'q was theirs.

Thus, some time early in Earth's 20th century - under a shakily united planetary empire - the Klingons produced the first of their own warp-capable vessels. Of course, they'd been traveling between the stars for nearly 200 years by then using the scores of Hur'q ships left behind so long ago. Nevertheless, the engineers of the Great Houses produced the first raptor-like ships which they used to visit world upon world, conquering many less advanced races, using their technological edge to subjugate dozens of systems in the region around Qo'nos. They colonized scores of worlds and reinforced garrisons on worlds they had colonized or conquered centuries earlier.

Thus, using technology and knowledge not of their own making, the Klingon Empire became a power to be reckoned with. Their ascent to interstellar travel came faster than for mankind, but humanity did the work on their own. The Klingons made their way to space through darker means, yet the end result was the same. Perhaps part of the Klingons' hostility comes from the fact that they rose to power not through their own wisdom, but as the result of their bloodthirst. Indeed, perhaps it is because their savagery earned them so much that they remain both advanced and primitive, civilized yet savage, into the late 24th century.

While the Klingons did not create their science or technology, that is not to say that they do not understand it. They sowed the seeds of their technical expertise initally by throwing off their shackles, but they spent centuries cultivating that knowledge until it bloomed. Like Vikings who found jet skis and assault rifles, the Klingons worked tirelessly for centuries to create a society both ancient and advanced, treacherous yet honorable.

Contact between the Klingons and Vulcans occured around the terrestrial year 1920. Though the Vulcans had studied numerous Klingon colony worlds from afar, first contact was initiated when a Klingon raider savagely attacked a Vulcan explorer. When a Vulcan battlecrusier arrived on the scene, the Klingons suddenly became far more open to friendly communications. Though the relationship was limited, Vulcan envoys traveled to Qo'nos, and even established a consulate there, leading to decades of lopsided trade (in favor of the Vulcans) and knolwedge acquisition (again, largely in the Vulcans' favor).

While somewhat more advanced than 22nd-century Earth in both propulsion (warp 5.6) and tactical systems (beam weapons, energy-based missiles, deflector shields, tractor beams), they were retarded in such fields as medicine and various other sciences, both life and physical. Despite their extensive library of scientific knowledge, the Klingons were more interested in practical application than theoretical science. Further, since the biology studies were primarily concerning the Hur'q, little of that information was actually applicable to the Klingons. Indeed, even in the 22nd century, Qo'nos is still plagued by disease, seriously damaged limbs are amputated, and zoology focuses mainly on animals that are threats or serve as good hunting material.

Whew! That took a lot out of me.

I'm going to take a break for a while, but I really wanted to get some thoughts out there about MY Klingons.

mactavish out.

Why wouldn't they simply use the Hur'Q ships that they had? Fly around, find some Orions, take their ships (and possibly nomenclature) and keep going?

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Why wouldn't they simply use the Hur'Q ships that they had? Fly around, find some Orions, take their ships (and possibly nomenclature) and keep going?

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Im not so sure about that: everyone can drive a car but many are dumbfounded if it starts to make problems. If the Klingons fly around in Old Hur'Q or Orion ships without fully understanding the Principles behind how it functions its a sure shot recipe for disaster. Ships need constant maintenance so i think only after a few years those Hur'Q and Orion Ships will break down. This probably hampers the Klingons and their advance at building an empire.

They finally understood enough about the principles of warp ships to build their own and then resume their further ascent to an star spanning empire.

Gawd I want to play a klingon in macs game so bad :)

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Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Im not so sure about that: everyone can drive a car but many are dumbfounded if it starts to make problems. If the Klingons fly around in Old Hur'Q or Orion ships without fully understanding the Principles behind how it functions its a sure shot recipe for disaster. Ships need constant maintenance so i think only after a few years those Hur'Q and Orion Ships will break down.

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That's why they steal another one. Or enslave alien engineers. It fits the modus opperandi, is all I'm saying.

There's probably one very simple reason actually.. the Hurq' ships probably outclassed most other vessels in the region in that era, with the exception of the Vulcans, whom they couldn't, or avoided, defeating (the Vulcans being a tough nut to crack, given their huge battle cruisers, and relatively small range of operations, meaning it was not hard to call on a HUGE fleet!) Klingon ships appeared to be among the most powerful warships of that era, though of course being outnumbered 5-1 wouldn't help :D

your vision sounds pretty much what I imagined actually. The Klingons' semi feudal society points to technology being thrust on them, and where they did advance was primarily in weaoonry, hence they more or less managed to keep pace with the Federation at the expense of pretty much every other advancement :D

The Klingons aren't stupid, just more interested in practical application than research and development. They learned how the Hur'q stuff worked, used it while educating themselves using Hur'q computers, and then - once they had enough of an understanding - they abandoned the aging Hur'q ships and built their own.

I never said they didn't use the technology that the invaders left behind. Indeed, quite the opposite. It took them a long time since they were essentially of a medieval mindset and were suddenly exposed to technology that might as well have been magic. They learned how to use the Hur'q machines, and then did so until they could produce their own.

I wish that the stuff the LUG guys wrote about the Klingons was all available to us. I'd love to have a look at the information about Klingon culture, then make whatever small adjustments were needed to keep it all in compliance with what we saw on Enterprise. I know from the previews alone that I would have shelled out nearly any amount of $$$ to get that text into my collection.

The Klingons of MY universe are pretty much the same as they appear in the standard Star Trek setting. Though my historical background is certainly not canon, it does make the Klingons more interesting to my players. It also provides a nice backdrop for a time travel story.

I think that both the Klingons and the Romulans are good as adversaries in an Enterprise-era Series, but for completely different reasons and in completely different ways. The Romulans are a sneaky, stealthy foe with a massive empire and plenty of resources at their disposal. The Klingons are a direct and brutal for with a sizeable empire and really powerful ships. The Romulans are centrally controlled, but the Klingons are quasi-feudal in nature; only when a catastrophic situation arises do the Klingons work together. Otherwise they are as likely to attack each other as they are other vessels they encounter.

I'd like to flesh out the Malurians as an adversary race. The Klingons and Romulans get plenty of screen time in the 23rd and 24th centuries, but - while Starfleet is relatively small and green - using lesser regional powers can be particularly entertaining. Having the Orions, themselves ancient beyond the reckoning of even the Vulcans, flitting around causing problems is also good for a few encounters.

I want to use some of the races we saw on Enterprise specifically for this reason. The Klingons and Romulans are fleshed out, but the Suliban are not. Neither are the aliens from "Silent Enemy" or the aliens who persecuted them (the guys led by Dean Stockwell). These races (and several others) can be brought back and explored further.

Klingons and Romulans will be there. I'm thinking of a new direction.

More later.

mactavish out.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Why wouldn't they simply use the Hur'Q ships that they had? Fly around, find some Orions, take their ships (and possibly nomenclature) and keep going?

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Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Im not so sure about that: everyone can drive a car but many are dumbfounded if it starts to make problems. If the Klingons fly around in Old Hur'Q or Orion ships without fully understanding the Principles behind how it functions its a sure shot recipe for disaster. Ships need constant maintenance so i think only after a few years those Hur'Q and Orion Ships will break down. This probably hampers the Klingons and their advance at building an empire.

They finally understood enough about the principles of warp ships to build their own and then resume their further ascent to an star spanning empire.

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I'm going to partially agree with both of you on this one, if you compare the D-7 to any other Klingon design there is a philosophy design difference. The D-7 is the only (non-FASA) design to incorporate the tall bridge module, the large command section in conjunction with the slender neck section or the more open to the surrounding area general layout. All other designs are similar with the boom concept but the 'neck' is much more robust - to me that translates into a less structurally sound material. Also the designs are more compact when compared to the D-7, with only weapons protruding past an undefined point. However the technology would be the problem as Otto pointed out. The D-series may have originally been a H'urk design, mainly the superstructure. Starting with the D-1 (a purely H'urk built craft) the Klingons reverse-engineered the technology over a period of time to end up with the D-7 and their own technology but still keeping the frame, as it was found being superior to any thing the Klingons could produce. Over time the number of replacement D-series frames dwindled forcing the Klingons to produce their own new designs. Due to the fact that they were familiar with the layout of the D-series and the Klingon philosophy of leading from the front the design linage remained similar, giving rise to the distinguishing Command Boom Section and the Engineering Secondary Hull of the Klingon fleet.
The K'T'Ingas ,if you notice, actually do have more structural re-enforcements along the neck section. Again to me, that equals the point in Klingon technology was capable of producing their own D-series frames.

the idea that the Klingon designs could be in part based on Hurq' technology could explain why they kept the same basic planform, and in a way why the Romulans chose to abandon their designs for the Klingon designs (other than the obvious) - because it had certain practicalities and might aid their warp mechanics - it was based on the much more sophisticated technologies of the Hurq'.

It is Retcon, but I do like to think that designs are that way for a reason. human warp drive works in the way which means having a Starfleet shaped ship is the best shape, and likewise with other alien warp mechanics, hence their lineages have a design history.

Of course, all this is assuming the Hur'Q were an advanced species when they invaded the Klingon Homeworld.

How advanced do you need to be to invade a pre-industrial world?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

How advanced do you need to be to invade a pre-industrial world?

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The more salient question may be: "How advanced do you need to be to invade a pre-industrial world and then move one of its great cultural treasures from the Beta Quadrant to the Gamma Quadrant?"

I suppose the Sword of Kahless could have ended up there much later, but it's just as likely that the Hur'q had either much better FTL than either the Federation or the Klingons have in the 24th C. or a truly appallingly long lifespan.

Yes, but then that raises other questions: Namely, why would the Hurq' travel halfway across the galaxy, to fight with a bunch of medieval aliens, to steal a cultural relic, if it wasn't reasonably easy for them to do? Sure as a 'trophy of war' it's reasonable enough for them to have taken it, but WHY would they go all that way, maybe spending centuries in cryosleep, to go to a planet on the opposite side of the galaxy?! One possible reason could simply be that a reasonable method of transport opened up to them that wasn't there before? A wierd wormhole (maybe related to the one that got the Romulans to where they are now?) access to a Vaduaar underspace conduit or some other thing. If it had just been the Bajoran Wormhole, why didn't they do the same to the Bajorans (and it's likelly the Bajorans would have detected them, as they were apparently solar sailing as early as the 18th century, and have a culture 10,000 years old) or any of the other local cultures, such as the Andorians, who would also have provided an equal 'challenge' if their only motivation was trophy gathering? Such a method does of course then explain why the Klingons didn't get transwarp era technology along with the Hurq' technology database :)

Well, since the term hur'q is not the actual name of the race that invaded Qo'nos, maybe it was the Vaadwaur. I hadn't thought of that, but it actually makes a lot of sense.

Think about it: the Vaadwaur traveled the galaxy using their subspace corridor network. They were known to be conquerors, they possessed advanced technologies (presumably including warp technologies), and they generally ventured fairly far afield. They certainly possesed advanced weaponry, ion drives, and other stuff that would be considered advanced by a medieval-level society.

So, why Qo'nos? Perhaps their network of subspace tunnels had an exit point in the area. Why not go from there to Bajor? Andoria? Tellar? Maybe there weren't corridors nearby. Maybe - though they lkely possessed warp technology - their FTL speed was only in the warp 1-1.5 range. Perhaps they could travel faster than light, but not a LOT faster.

So, once the Klingons drive the invaders out, they have a sizeable number of technological implements laying around. The aliens [Vaadwaur] settled on the surface. They built advanced structures and brought (or produced) the various items that made their culture a technologically- and scientifically-advanced one. All of those things were left on Qo'nos, giving the Klingons access to everything, including many of the alien vessels.

So, over the next several centuries, the Klingons fly around in the warp-capable ships. They explore, colonize, and gradually decipher the invaders' computers. Using that knowledge, they became educated (after a fashion) and used their knowledge to improve on the aliens' designs. Perhaps the Klingons had a genius or two whose quantum leaps of intellect not only decoded the aliens' knowledge, but actually improved on it. On top of that, they would have had a couple of centuries (at least) or more to make modifications and improvements to the technology once they became capable of producing it on their own.

In the end, who the Hur'q were really doesn't matter, though having them be the Vaadwaur would be both convenient and cool. In fact, I think that the Vaadwaur WILL be my Hur'q. It integrates the Delta Quadrant (one of favorite Trek elements) with an Enterprise-era setting (another of my favorite Trek elements), so I like the idea a lot.

Oh, and as for the sword of Kahless? The subspace corridors can certainly explains its location as well.

Anyway, I am getting tired. I'll write more later.

mactavish out.

The span of time between the Hur'Q invasion and the rediscovery of the Sword is a thousand years. A thousand years. That's a lot of time for all sorts of crazy stuff to happen.

If it were the Vaduaar, it could also solve a number of other issues: Namelly, why, if these corridors exist, why were there none round our neck of the woods, when given the ranges they covered, there could easily be some: The Vaduaar also had the technology to collapse the under-space corridors, so it may be that the Klingons also possess such technology, but they never had the ability to use it, because there are no functional conduits for thousands of light-years!

It also opens some other interesting story threads... What if the Vaduaar weren't the only species with access to that technology: Perhaps the Orions used them for their vast trading empire, which in a way makes some sense too, since they are also incredibly old, yet had only basic warp drive and weaponry (who needs good weaponry and drives, when in an instant you can jump out of space-time and emerge a few hundred light-years away shortly after!), relatively speaking, which meant that at the same time their whole society imploded at around the same time! And of course, with the Vaduaar up and about, who knows, they may know of ways of re-opening the conduits, or just fly from a few thousand light-years away, with a grudge against the Klingons haha :)

But yes, it would be a cool shock for any time travel episode, to run into the vaduaar, and depending on when you set it, they may have no clue what they are facing!

The Xindi had subspace corridors.

Well, the Vaadwaur fell from their lofty perch between 800 and 1,000 years before Voyager encountered them (I think it was 900 years, but we can play with that a bit).

Say the Turei Alliance saturation bombed the Vaadwaur homeworld roughly 700 years prior to the launch of NX-01 Enterprise. While they didn't say so in Voyager, I'm going to assume that they also targeted the Vaadwaur colonies and client worlds that they were able to locate. I'm also operating under the assumption that the Turei were unlikely to locate all (or even most) of their Vaadwaur holdings, so I'd guess many survived for at least a while after the destruction of their homeworld.

Why weren't the Vaadwaur in "our neck of the woods"? Maybe they were, but we're talking the 14th-15th century. Maybe they found the Sol system. Maybe they even visited. I'm going to have events unfold this way:

1. A fleet of Vaadwaur vessels exited a subspace corridor in the region near Qo'nos. Fearful of the Turei and attempting to recover from the thrashing they'd received, the Vaadwaur convoy - consisting of transports, cargo freighters, and combat vessels - determined the immediate need to establish a new base of operations.

2. After scanning the region, Qo'nos was discovered. It had the necessary resources and was M-class, so the Vaadwaur moved closer to see what else the planet had to offer. The discovery of, say, 500 million Klingons was of little concern. In spite of their numbers, the natives hadn't even reached the Steam Age; superior Vaadwaur technology had historically proven equal to the task of subjugating a low-tech race and their arrogance prevented them from even considering the alternative.

3. In multiple waves, the Vaadwaur fighters strafed the larger population centers. Their few capitol ships bombed the surface from orbit, unleashing both explosives and chemical weapons. After only a few days, many of the more powerful Houses capitulated and the Vaadwaur landed many of their ships.

4. Over the next few years, the invaders - called the Hur'q by the natives - struggled to consolidate their power. The Klingons, however, proved less than desirable as subjugates. The constant attacks against both Vaadwaur personnel and property were bad enough, but they clearly had troubling following even the simplest directions... even those that weren't constantly rebelling (and there weren't many of those to begin with).

5. The attacks continued to grow until one day, just shy of a decade after their initial conquest, the Great Houses formed an alliance and unleashed the most vicious attack ever seen on Qo'nos. They killed the Vaadwaur by the thousands until the decision was made to abandon their colony and flee the planet.

6. The remaining Vaadwaur took all that they could, both in terms of native cultural artifacts (including the sword of Kahless), natural resources and finished goods (including technology), but their numbers were greatly reduced and their infrastructure was in shambles. They left the planet and - in formation with the larger ships still in orbit - entered a subspace corridor and fled the region forever.

7. Many Vaadwaur insisted that they shouldn't abandon the sector so precipitously, but - given their weakened state and their stinging defeat by pre-warp humanoids - the final decision was to travel to another quadrant and attempt to start over. They eventually found their way to the Gamma Quadrant.

8. The remaining Vaadwaur vessels exited their subspace network in the central region of the quadrant. Upon returning to normal space, they very quickly discovered a serious problem. A battlegroup of Jem'Hadar ships detected their presence and engaged them. In a battle that lasted less that five minutes, the Vaadwaur were completely obliterated, the debris from their ships scattered over thousands of kilometers. If any ships escaped, their final fate remains unknown.

The Klingon side of this tale has already been told in some of my previous posts.

This works very well in my Enterprise-era Series, so I think I'll use it. In fact, I think I'll put this all down in my notes and expand on it later.

mactavish out.

That sounds pretty cool, with one observation.. The Sword of Khales was found within ruins on a city, and it was identified as being Hurq' - so perhaps this location was one of their refuges from the network at large (an extremelly difficult to find conduit) However their presence attracted the growing Dominion. The Dominion I suspect, wouldn't have attacked imediatelly, but would have been curious about them, perhaps even trading with them, and inviting them to join the Dominion.. they refused, and the rest is history :)

Tobian: Yeah, that works, too. ;)

I suppose that some of the Vaadwaur may very well have made their way to an out-of-the-way planet in Dominion space. Assuming they were either a.) able to defend themselves against the Dominion long enough to build a new colony, or b.) forced to join the Dominion and then perhaps destroyed later when they rebelled or refused to surrender information about the subspace corridors, then perhaps finding the sword on the planet would make more sense.

On the other hand, perhaps the world where the sword was found was assumed to be a Hur'q planet, or perhaps it was recovered from space by another Vaadwaur ship/convoy that located and attempted to rendezvous with the fleet driven from Qo'nos, or perhaps the planet on which the sword was found was a Vaadwaur-subjugated planet and the natives (like the Klingons) drove them out; that last possibility would certainly explain the technological similarities between the two races.

The Vaadwaur are such a great mystery race, and I really think that they can be easily presented as the Hur'q. Moreover, have them come back in a TNG/DS9/Voyager-era setting - having conquered some new worlds, acquired new technologies, and updated their armada - and use their subspace corridors to gain access to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. A Klingon-Hur'q War would be really groovy, particularly in the wake of the Dominion War.

Think about it... the race responsible for the Klingons presence as a quadrant-level power, responsible for them achieving warp technology (which they may or may not have done on their own), returns to get some payback. The Klingons - looking to settle a 1,000-year-old score - are all too willing to take part. In their weakened condition, they may well be challenged by the Vaadwaur, particularly if they managed to secure stuff like chroniton torpedoes or isokinetic cannons.

Given the state of the region in the post-Dominion War era, lesser powers like the Breen and the Son'a might be looking for someone to follow, and the Vaadwaur would likely be willing to take them on as junior partners. The boost in ships and manpower would make things even deadlier.

I'll be posting more later.

mactavish out.

Back to the Romulans.

The Romulan Star Empire of the mid-22nd century has roughly disc-shaped vessels with sweeping wing-like structures ending in war nacelles. They appear to utilize either a pulse disruptor or some kind of energy torpedo system (when they fired over the top of Enterprise in "Minefield"). They also appear to possess fairly substantial cloaking technology.

Though we don't truly know the Romulans until two centuries after the founding of the United Federation of Planets, we did see enough in the Enterprise episodes featuring them to see that they clearly had a centralized government (as evidenced by the appearance of a senator), they were militant, and they were technologically-advanced as a race.

I wrote in previous posts that Romulan scientfic advancement was slower than human development, so they are likely slightly more advanced than Starfleet, but less so than the Vulcans. Given their relatively slow scientific development, I am going to assume that they are equally sluggish in their social progress as well. Given that statement, it seems reasonable to assume that the Romulan Senate was likely establish centuries or even millennia earlier, and - since that system has worked so well for them - they have maintained it, making any necessary changes incrementally and over time.

I'm going to also assume that the Romulan Star Empire includes several other planetary systems by the mid-22nd century, given that they have been a spacefaring people for over a thousand years by that point. Since Romulus shares a star system with Remus, I'll also assume that the Remans have been subjugated for nearly the same length of time that the Romulans have been in the system.

Now I know that there are already plenty of features of the Romulan government already established in canon lore, so I'm not going to write anything additional in this thread.

During the Earth-Romulan War, the Romulans had a clear technological advantage, though not a huge one. In MY universe, Starfleet defeated them for three reasons:

1. The humans had support from the Andorians, Tellarites and Vulcans. This support may have been strategic, material, or even direct assistance in combat. I'm saying that Vulcan tacticians aided with planning, the Tellarites with engineering and technological assistance, and the Andorians with ships and personnel.

2. Humans produced ships and equipment faster than the Romulans. Despite their likely superior number of combat vessels and their potentially greater resource chain, the Romulans were used to slow and steady. Once humanity realized the level of the threat, they started cranking out new ships and equipment just like during World War II. In the four years the war lasted, human production hummed along, producing new ships constantly.

3. The Romulans were too arrogant to think that mankind - a relative newcomer in the scheme of things - could possibly best them. For this reason, they underestimated both Earth's capability to make war and its resolve to see it through to the final end.

The Romulans, too assured of their own superiority, failed to make use of their client races as soldiers or starship crewmembers. Consequently, while humanity had multiple allies, the Romulans had only themselves and perhaps some mercenaries to fight. Seeing how Romulans were pathologically secretive, I'm assuming that even those who they brought onboard to fight for them never knew much about them. Thus, the human war machine was likely far larger and far more diverse than the Romulan's military.

Why did the Romulans underestimate Earth? Well, I'm going to guess that the information they collected through their network of spies suggested as much. Reports of their technological capabilities from various sources would have indicated such things as a lack of deflector shields and tractor beams, limited weaponry, and a top speed of warp 5 (or so). While the Romulan ships were likely slower, they were more heavily armed and defended. Also, secrets gleaned from the Vulcans would have likely painted mankind as a race of inept barbarians, so this unintentional misinformation may have fed the Romulans' overconfidence, too.

More later.

mactavish out.

My take on the Romulan war, given the events, especially as revealed in Season 4 of Enterprise is that the Romulans quite possibly had expansion plans, and were beginning to make the push to reconquer Vulcan, and quite possibly others in the would be early Federation. They manipulated Vulcan politics and use the Vulcan's own sense of superiority against them. What they didn't count on was the Humans, and how they (with Captain Archer at the helm) shattered this plan, and then began to form a co-defence treaty, which was exactly what they didn't want.

I think you're right, I think that the misinformation that the Vulcans had on the Humans would have led the Romulans to assume that the Humans were the weakest target of the group. However this I think was their undoing, because that very fact, and the growth of the foundings of the Federation, meant Earth had some very powerful friends to call on when the whole thing went badly, and the rest is of course history :D I think the Humans were, to the Romulans, more or less an irrelevancy, a puppet of the Vulcans, who were their real aim, and the tasty morsels of Andoria and Tellar would have fallen next, it's just the Humans both foiled their plans and proved instrumental in forming a bridge between the species, where only emnity had existed before! :D

There's something weird about the Romulans. They seem expansionistic, arrogant and aggressive, but willing to hide behind their borders for century-long stretches at a time. Maybe the Doctrine of Unlimited Expansion isn't necessarily about glorious conquest; the Romulans in the Dominion War certainly seemed very cautious about what resources they used and where. It seems more like a slow-burn manifest destiny.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

There's something weird about the Romulans. They seem expansionistic, arrogant and aggressive, but willing to hide behind their borders for century-long stretches at a time. Maybe the Doctrine of Unlimited Expansion isn't necessarily about glorious conquest; the Romulans in the Dominion War certainly seemed very cautious about what resources they used and where. It seems more like a slow-burn manifest destiny.

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What I liked about LUG's Taurhai was the way they contributed to explaining the last Romulan isolationist spell--the Romulans weren't really hiding behind their borders, they just chose to be inactive along one while they expanded or dealt with business on another side of their territory. It's not impossible that they were expanding and consolidating elsewhere during the hundred years after the Earth-Romulan war brought them to an impasse in that direction.

Yeah the Taurhai Unity were a pretty good explanation, but beyond that, yes, Space is 3D, and given they had had a withering defeat against the Federation, and moreover, with warp speeds increasing exponentially, and Romulus being So close to the nascent Federation, it was probably a much wiser move to build a wall, and consolidate. The Romulans also have the Klingons to contend with too, as well as probably a few other alien races who may be more or less powerful than them (Such as the Breen?) so it's not hard to imagine that they decided to keep away from the Federation, and concentrate on softer and easier targets, as while they are expansionistic, expanding into the Federation must have just been too hard for them!

Besides humans and Klingons, who do you suppose the 22nd-century Romulans had to regularly deal with? The Breen were mentioned, as were the Taurhai, but who else?

What relationship do the Romulans of this era have with, say, the Nausicaans? The Orions? The Suliban (Cabal or otherwis)? What about the Andorians, Tellarites, and Vulcans?

Well, clearly they had contact with Vulcan. Indeed, it seems that they were - as Tobian has written - attempting to directly (though covertly) influence Vulcan politics in an effort to take control of their people's homeworld. It seems also that they had operatives on Andoria, as they were able to kidnap an Aenar [Andorian subspecies] for use as a pilot of one of their chameleon attack drones. Given the interactions between the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites, it seems likely that the Romulans dealt with the natives of Tellar as well.

Now how about the Klingons? We know that they eventually made contact, even forming a troubled alliance for a time, but I am a bit confused by that fact. If the Klingons have contact with Vulcan (as we know they did) and they also have contact with Romulus (as they eventually did), why didn't they ever say to the Vulcans, "Hey, we met a race that is nearly identical to you genetically. They call themselves Romulans, and they sure do look like you guys"? It seems to me that neither humans nor Vulcans actually know about the Romulan-Vulcan connection until the 23rd century.

Oh, as an aside - not being a TOS fan, I wasn't aware of the connection - I learned that the Malurians from the Enterprise episode "Civilization" were eventually wiped out by the Nomad probe in Star Trek. The probe apparently was launched from Earth, met up with an alien machine, the two merged, and the resultant machine tried to destroy all organic life. They wiped out 4 billions Malurians before eventually being stopped by Kirk and the NCC-1701 Enterprise. I like the Malurians as an enemy race, and now I feel free to use them however I want, knowing that their civilization will eventually be destroyed.

So anyway, the Malurians do work well as an enemy, particularly since Archer screwed them out of a lucrative business on a pre-warp planet. Did they speak for their government? Probably not, but surely they would have spread the word that humans were bad and not to be trusted. Given that a human machine eventually causes the race's extinction, it seems that they were right.

Okay, Romulans... who else did they have contact with? Were there Romulan agents on Risa? How about Earth or other human-occupied worlds? They could certainly pass as Vulcans, and their undercover agents would certainly have the training to pull it off. Since humans didn't care for Vulcans, and since they were fairly deferential towards them, they would probably leave any Romulans posing as Vulcans alone.

So anyway, I think I've written enough about these two races for the time being. I think I'll start a new thread to talk about some of the races introduced in Enterprise: the Xindi, the Suliban, the Denobulans, and some of the other, minor species we were shown.

mactavish out.

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Originally Posted by mactavish

Now how about the Klingons? We know that they eventually made contact, even forming a troubled alliance for a time, but I am a bit confused by that fact. If the Klingons have contact with Vulcan (as we know they did) and they also have contact with Romulus (as they eventually did), why didn't they ever say to the Vulcans, "Hey, we met a race that is nearly identical to you genetically. They call themselves Romulans, and they sure do look like you guys"? It seems to me that neither humans nor Vulcans actually know about the Romulan-Vulcan connection until the 23rd century.

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What about the Rigelians? They're close enough genetically to share diseases and attendant medical information–even if they have four or five genders. Given the complicated histories of some spacefaring cultures, something like that might not be notable.

Besides, I don't see a Klingon sitting around chatting with a Vulcan about genetic data they've collected from a secretive, xenophobic alien culture. It's entirely possible that rogue Klingon scientists or uncharacteristically cooperative Vulcans would have noticed it–But what're the chances the Vulcans didn't know the Romulans were, well, Romulans? T'pol's expression in "Minefield" was certainly suggestive. Some Vulcans knew about the Romulans. How extensive was the Romulan infiltration of their society? Given that basic anthropological details like how they reproduced were unknown by educated, well-traveled humans in the 23rd century, how many more human questions would have been answered by a stony Vulcan silence?

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Okay, Romulans... who else did they have contact with? Were there Romulan agents on Risa?

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Pfft. Of course. Everyone has agents on Risa. Pre-Federation, the Risan government is probably totally corrupt.

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How about Earth or other human-occupied worlds?

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Given that the Klingons were able to capture someone off of Earth, this also seems likely.

I just had a thought about the H'urk - What if they weren't conquers, say a species that only wanted to bring the Klingons out of some type of disaster or to introduce them to the greater interstellar culture. Only to have been attacked (possible destroyed) by the Klingons (the reason we don't know who they are)?

Just a thought, as history is written by the victors and all that.