I want to know what is the difference between officers personnal and enlisted personnal.
I dont even know what is a waaren officer????
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I want to know what is the difference between officers personnal and enlisted personnal.
I dont even know what is a waaren officer????
An officer is a graduate from Starfleet Academy. An enlisted member, is a person who has not graduated from the Academy.
Ooh Boy! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
In laymans terms enlisted are the people who sign up for military duty, do a basic but intense training course (typically 2-4 mths) and then enter the field as a full fledged private/crewman etc.
Officers being the 'incharge type' go to 'military uni' for typically 4yrs of training and graduate as lts or ensigns etc.
In trek terms, Officers go to the academy for 4yrs and graduate as ensigns, doctors for 8 years and graduate as Lt Jr.
Enlisted begin as crewman 3rd class after basic training but they are out and about serving almost 4 yrs before officers are.
Im sure more miltary inclined members here will add to this rendition but this is the barebones of it.
http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
Oh and Warrant officers are a go between enlisted and officers. In effect they are enlisted with a warrant to be a officer and a way for enlisted to achieve officer status.
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SIRSIG :D
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever ;)
Well hmmm . . . this is very complicated. However, let us keep this simple.
There are two types of personnel . . . officers and enlisted.
Officers are those personnel which command is delegated to and delegated by. Officers in the end are the ones in charge, all actions done under their command are their responsability. Like previosly stated officers go to a long term school (i.e. Colorado Springs, West Point, Annapolis), or an advanced training program (ROTC, OCS) with some other background already been achieved.
Enlisted personnel are those who have gone straight into service without going thru one of the afformentioned programs. They go through boot camp, and take their branch course to learn their specialty. These people are the doers and make up the bulk of the personnel.
One way to look @ it is, if the officers are the brains, the enlisted are the body. Without one, the other cannot survive. But of course NCO's will disagree with that statement.
Perfect Sir Sig! The only thing I would add is that the Warrant Officers, who are go-betweens enlisted/officers, also act as specialist. Some in administration (yeomen), others medical aids (corpsmen), ect. In the "real world" it is difficult (but not impossible) for a Warrant Officer to become an officer; if they do, they also start as an Ensign.
Another way to look at is to use a business/industry model. I think this makes for a pretty good paradigm. (Before anyone flames me, I'm a former military NCO...)
Officers are Management. Enlisted are Labor; NCOs are Foremen.
This also leads to why I've always thought that the "officer only" Enterprise was a horrible idea. Can you imagine a business with nothing but managers? That sounds like a Dilbert-esque nightmare to me...!
That sounds like a Dilbert-esque nightmare to me...!
So that's why Picard's tunic is constantly curling up!
OK!!!Did someone have the rank of the enlisted personal???
By the way, can you give the officer rank to???
Thanks!!!!!!!!!
The only main character from the enlisted Pool was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien. However many of the individuals referred to as crewman on DS9 and Voyager are NCO's and enlisted...
As a rule of thumb. If theres no rank insignia on their collar, they are enlisted, except for O'Brien.
This has however led to a complete ranking insignia system for the enlisted ranks.
Officer ranks tend to be given out to academy graduates, except in very rare circumstances... Theres something going round at the moment called 'Maverick promotions' basically enlisted by-passing Warrant Officer and becoming an officer...
This is rare enough to be fine with most player character types, but as a GM I would still make the player develop an NCO character and buy the Brevet Promotion advantage (as an equivalent advantage)...
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Dan.
"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"
Speaking as a veteran:
Enlisted are those who do the work. The laborers, as mentioned above. As an aside, NCOs are enlisted. Warrant officers are, in fact, commissioned.
Warrant Officers (The next level) are typically ranking enlisted that became commissioned, but didn't make the cut to be an actual officer. Warrants are often more-respected by the troops because "they have been there" and the troops know it.
Officers. Some officers (a very small amount) were actually enlisted, first, and pulled college courses or strings with governmental contacts and stepped up to become officers. Most, however, are graduates of the Academy and have never been enlisted.
This was one point of contention that I have always had with Star Trek, despite the fact that I love the setting. Enlisted personnel are what make a military force (even an expeditionary force like Starfleet) go 'round. Without them, there is no military. Star Trek never focused much on them and I feel they define a military organization's personality. Officers are there, and very visible, but so are enlisted and there are a lot more of them...
Old Naval Phrase: It takes a high school diploma to fix something and a college degree to break it again...
[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]
Of course, it may be that O'brien was given rank insignia because he is a Chief Petty Officer. Chiefs are another little bit of fun, at least in the American navy.
Chiefs (and their more ranking fellows) are a "brotherhood" for lack of a better term. There are some that believe they have the right to tell an officer where to go (usually among the Senior and Master Chief ranks) and actually get away with it among the younger officers.
They also wear rank pins on their collars (like officers) where enlisted personal typically wear only rank patches on their sleeves. These are the guys that make the enlisted portion of the organization run like a machine. Compare them to higher ranking sergeants in the army and marines. The troops will follow a good chief into hell with no hope of return if they respect him or her.
Enlisted ranks and their ensignia can be found under the Tactical list on the main TrekRPG board (few lines above the discussion contection). It is about third or forth line up from bottem of the Tactical list.
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I have not seen an on-line list of the officer ensignia for you to see, but lowest to highest. . . .
Ensign..........one gold pip
Lieut. J.G......one gold/one black pip
Lieutenant......two gold pips
Lieut. Cmder....two gold/one black pip
Commander.......three gold pips
Captain.........four gold pips
Commodore.......one gold pip in gold rectangle
Rear Admiral....two gold pips in gold rectangle
Vice Admiral....three gold pips in gold rectangle
Admiral.........four gold pips in gold rectangle
[This message has been edited by redwood973 (edited 05-15-2001).]
I got to thinking once, way back when when I had the notion to become a pilot in the Navy (Come one, I was raised in San Diego, and watched Top Gun an Upteenth number of times) (Damn me and my partial color blindness!): Why is it that it takes someone with a Doctorate to design the mechanics to how a plane will work, someone with a Masters to actually design the plane, someone with a Bachleors to fly it, and someone with a High School Diploma to fix it?Quote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
Speaking as a veteran:
Old Naval Phrase: It takes a high school diploma to fix something and a college degree to break it again...
My think is that if someone with a High School Diploma successfully designed a plane, then all the above would only need a High School Diploma to do all the aformentioned. Kinda odd don't you think?
I believe the enlisted rank structure for Star Trek goes thusly:
Rank (American Equivelant)
Crewman 3rd Class (Seaman/Airman/Constructionman Recruit)
Crewman 2nd Class (Seaman/Airman/Constructionman Apprentice)
Crewman 1st Class (Seaman/Airman/Constructionman)
Petty Officer 3rd Class (Same)
Petty Officer 2nd Class (Same)
Petty Officer 1st Class (Same)
Chief Petty Officer (Same)
Senior Chief Petty Officer (Same)
Master Chief Petty Officer (Same)
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (No known equivelant)
Officer Structure:
Ensign
Lieutenant JG
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain
Commodore
The admirals of Star Trek confuse me a touch. In times of war, I think there should also be a fleet admiral. As well, I think there should be varying degrees of admiral at any other time. So, here is my proposed version of admirals in Starfleet:
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral
I hope this clears things up, for you, and gives some inspiration for your LUG game.
[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]
Not exactly. Although they are granted the privileges and status of a Commissioned officer they are given a Warrant, not a Commission. It is entirely possible for a Warrant officer to eventually become a Commissioned officer through subsequent promotions.Quote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
Warrant officers are, in fact, commissioned.
That makes it sound like becoming a Warrant officer is somehow a failure. Becoming a Warrant officer is a great honor; the rank is only granted to those with exceptional skills, abilities, and experience. (At least that's how it works in the Marines...)Quote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
Warrant officers (The next level) are typically ranking enlisted that became commissioned, but didn't make the cut to be an actual officer.
Or they are promoted through the Warrant officer ranks to eventually become a Commissioned officer. Or they are sent to a Service Academy (Annapolis, West Point) and are given a regular commission upon graduation.Quote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
Some officers (a very small amount) were actually enlisted, first, and pulled college courses or strings with governmental contacts and stepped up to become officers.
Or they are graduates of an ROTC program, in which case they are given a commission in the Reserves, but serve on Active Duty. Their next goal (usually around the time they are a First Lieutenant) is to become “augmented,” in which case their Commission is converted from a Reserve Commission to a Regular Commission. If they fail to get “augmented,” they stay in the reserves but are eventually taken off of Active Duty.Quote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
Most, however, are graduates of the Academy and have never been enlisted.
Keep in mind that this is all based on the USMC’s way of doing things; I’m sure the other services have their own ways of handling these things.
And yes, I can see this all adapted to Star Trek RPGs. You could set up a character who was not been to Starfleet Academy, but who is trying to gain a regular commission through “augmentation.” I’m sure there would be plenty of politics involved in this process, even in an RPG. Alternately, you could have a character who is an officer but who is a “mustang.” (former enlisted) He’s very competent and very skilled, but isn’t in the “Old Boy’s Club” of Starfleet Academy graduates…
Has there been a Five Pip Boxed Admiral in Canon? I don't think I've seen one. But has there been an Admiral Refered to as Fleet Admiral? In my recollection, I don't think so. However, if there is, then I am mistaken and hereby retrack my previous statement; but until then I shall go on with my statement. Therefore I go by a more modern rank systems (which have been around for the last 175 years or so):[*] Rear Admiral (Lower Half)/CommodoreQuote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
The admirals of Star Trek confuse me a touch. In times of war, I think there should also be a fleet admiral. As well, I think there should be varying degrees of admiral at any other time. So, here is my proposed version of admirals in Starfleet:
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral
[**] Rear Admiral (Upper Half)
[***] Vice Admiral
[****] Admiral
But what happened to that Admiral rank that they were messing around with in the early TNG? You know, the one that tappered of with like 9 pips, each one getting smaller as the triangle got smaller.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cessna:
Or they are graduates of an ROTC program, in which case they are given a commission in the Reserves, but serve on Active Duty. Their next goal (usually around the time they are a First Lieutenant) is to become “augmented,” in which case their Commission is converted from a Reserve Commission to a Regular Commission. If they fail to get “augmented,” they stay in the reserves but are eventually taken off of Active Duty.
Keep in mind that this is all based on the USMC’s way of doing things; I’m sure the other services have their own ways of handling these things.
And yes, I can see this all adapted to Star Trek RPGs. You could set up a character who was not been to Starfleet Academy, but who is trying to gain a regular commission through “augmentation.” I’m sure there would be plenty of politics involved in this process, even in an RPG. Alternately, you could have a character who is an officer but who is a “mustang.” (former enlisted) He’s very competent and very skilled, but isn’t in the “Old Boy’s Club” of Starfleet Academy graduates…
In the US military all Warrant Officers are technically "commissioned" when they are promoted to WO2... it is for certain UCMJ reasons and other legalities.
A Warrant isn't a soldier who failed the "cut" for commissioned status, in the US, they are technical specialists. A commissioned officer has to move around too much for career progression... a warrant can stay in one place forever and get really good at that one thing.
Though they recieve leadership and tactical training they are not considered combat leaders... except in Aviation and Special Forces.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
History of warrant officers: Originally, a 'warranted' officer was an non-commissioned officer in a position befitting an officer: paymaster and the like in the ground forces, or a position like 'master' for the naval vessels, in times when there was no officer to fill the slot.
This mutated into a position where the officer is not commissioned, but warranted; their position had to be approved by a flag-rank officer, but not any civilian agency (like the admiralty, or the dept. of navy, etc...) They filled a role as subject expert, without having any of the paperwork responsibility of a commissioned officer. they have no legal authority -- punishments, etc. ordered by a warrant must be apporved by a commissioned officer or someone in the NCO chain of command. Often, this was a position given to sergeants major and the like who were as far as they could go in the ranks, but who were -- for whatever reason -- considered unfit (read, not moneyed, titled, etc...) to be a full-fledged officer.
They now occupy a hazily-defined purpose in the US military; namely, they are the subject/technical experts. Many are pilots (usually helos), military intelligence analysts & interpreters, etc..etc... They are now given their warrant by the various departments of the navy, army, what have you. They rarely have any kind of legal authority (promotions, punishments, etc...) and like it taht way. They are -- in essence -- non-commissioned officers who have escaped the supervisory and paperwork hastles of the enlisted chain of command, but have not ben stuck with the responsibility/paperwork of a commissioned officer.
Simple language: the warrant officer is the guy who does his job and puts up with the least shit. the commissioned officer's job is to lead and catch all the crap coming down form the echelons above god. The NCOs have to make the work happen for theofficers to look good n their fitreps, and the enlisted get shafted if they can't find a place to be out of sight and mind...
To my knowledge we have never seen a 5 star admiral. (And I look hard for people's rank).
There has been a handful of 4 stars admirals around, lest then 6 maybe even 3-4. The most recent being Adm. 'Whatley'? from the DS9 ep where Bajor is about to sign for fed membership.
There has been a couple of Fleet Admirals, Shanthi (Redemption pt2) for instance. But I think she was only a 3 star admiral (or thats what the show put on her).
Commordores was a 1 star admiral and has been phased out (at least in name) from TNG.
Apparently in TNG the 3 star and occasionally the 2 star admirals did all the work.
But they were terrible with rank names. Vice Admiral Nechayev who had 2 stars a few times when she should of had 3. Nechayev is later promoted to fleet admiral and still wears 3 stars.
Plus in TOS there where Fleet Cpts who were different to Commordores (who seemed to do everything Admirals did)
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SIRSIG :D
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever ;)
Please correct me I am wrong, but isn't Commodore more a "postion" rather then a rank? Like Sargent Major and Field Marshal. The "rank" of commodore is given to any senior officer in charge of a tsk force.
I always thought that the SF rank of Fleet Captain was analogous to that of Commodore, Garth was (as far as I remember) the only Fleet Captain listed in canon. After that they refered to them as Commodore.
If I am mistaken please correct me.
I was under the impression that, while in use during TOS times, the rank of "Commodore" had fallen from Starfleet use by TNG times.
While I agree that there should be some middle-ground betwen Captain and Admiral, Starfleet (AFAIK) has seen fit to remove that middle ground...
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A couple of comments to throw in times of stress to that person who's really annoying you...
"Oohhh. Did I just step on your itty-bitty ego?"
"How many times do I have to flush before you go away?"
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
I was under the impression that, while in use during TOS times, the rank of "Commodore" had fallen from Starfleet use by TNG times.
While I agree that there should be some middle-ground betwen Captain and Admiral, Starfleet (AFAIK) has seen fit to remove that middle ground...
Why? There is no "middle ground" between Colonel and General (equivalant to Captain and Admiral).
"I always thought that the SF rank of Fleet Captain was analogous to that of Commodore, Garth was (as far as I remember) the only Fleet Captain listed in canon. After that they refered to them as Commodore.
If I am mistaken please correct me."
You are mistaken. Pike was a Fleet Captain as well, in Menagerie. Commodore Mendez appears in the same episode, so the two ranks were in use at the same time. While the exact nature of the Fleet Captain rank was never made explicit, my best guess is that it's a Captain placed in command over other starship Captains - in effect, a brevet Commodore.
While it's been stated off screen that the Starfleet rank of Commodore has succumbed to the US Navy's silly two-tier Rear Admiral system, a piece if inanity perpetrated by no other Navy I know of, it's never been confirmed on screen - no one-pip Flag officer has appeared in the TNG/DS9/Voyager era - so I'm perfectly in line with canon in keeping Commodores in my campaign.
Works for me...thanks, Owen. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
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A couple of comments to throw in times of stress to that person who's really annoying you...
"Oohhh. Did I just step on your itty-bitty ego?"
"How many times do I have to flush before you go away?"
What do you mean, "two-tier Rear Admiral system?Quote:
Originally posted by Owen E Oulton:
[i
the US Navy's silly two-tier Rear Admiral system.
I thought warrent officers were used more to fill positions where an officer (ie someone above the enlisted ranks) is thought to be required but it's not a duty for "real" officers.
My impression was that this is how it works for some Army pilots and comms types. (Others are officers however so forgive my confusion).
I know the difference between a commission and a warrent, I'm just sure when/how it applies.
Owen means that the US Navy has decided to make one-star and two-star admirals as rear admiral as followed:
Rear Admiral (lower half) - admiral with one star
Rear Admiral (upper half) - admiral with two stars
I don't know if they would say that fully during a formal introduction [e.g., "I present you the new Commander of the Pacific Fleet, Rear Admiral (lower half) Russell Chan"] but it sounds ridiculous to be referred this way. No offense intended, US Navy.
I still adhere to the Royal Navy ranking standard and allow one-star admiral the title of Commodore while the two-star admiral the simple title of Rear Admiral.
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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
[This message has been edited by REG (edited 05-16-2001).]
Off hand, I adhere to this policy, for hearing Rear Admiral for both ranks is a tad bit confusing. However, in game I reger to both as Rear Admiral due to historical references, believing that the US had more surviving unit after WWIII.Quote:
Originally posted by REG:
I still adhere to the Royal Navy ranking standard and allow one-star admiral the title of Commodore while the two-star admiral the simple title of Rear Admiral.
Furthermore, it's far easier in Notorization.
One small note on enlisted ranks, at least according to the US Army, Sergeant Major is a rank. It is pay grade E-9, however there are three positions associated with it, Sergeant Major (a staff position primarily), Command Sergeant Major (senior[highest ranking] enlisted person in a battalion or larger command), and Sergeant Major of the Army (as above, but for the entire service). In conversation the proper way to address one is "Sergeant Major" as opposed to "Sergeant" for most of the rest of the NCOs.
None taken. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gifQuote:
Originally posted by REG:
No offense intended, US Navy.
Theoretically a Fleet Admiral should be a 5 star admiral right? Or are they a fleet adm in name only and as such head up a whole fleet worth of ships, maybe even multiple sectors worth.
For the sake of nothing else I'd make a Fleet Captain a 5 pip rank. And a Commordore a 1 star Admiral.
But thats just me http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
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SIRSIG :D
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever ;)
Actually, for Fleet Captain I use the rank insignia that Director Sloan used when he first appeared on DS9 under the guise of an investigative officer looking for traitors on the station - a Captain's four pips with a bar beneath them.
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http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/sig_staff.gif
Hmmm, Interesting.Quote:
Originally posted by Owen E Oulton:
Actually, for Fleet Captain I use the rank insignia that Director Sloan used when he first appeared on DS9 under the guise of an investigative officer looking for traitors on the station - a Captain's four pips with a bar beneath them.
I might have to track down a screen capture from this episode which ironically was on tv the other night and I was to tired to watch it. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
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SIRSIG :D
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever ;)
I always thought that the 'under bar' was ment to signify their status as Sec31 members, not to mention those uniforms. Do not in that episode, the two LT's in the shot also had the 'under bar'. Thus this means that the 'under bar' isn't specific to CAPT Sloan.
Therefore I would be careful if, inside game, or outside for that matter, if you meet an officer with a little gold line/bar underneath their pips. Don't start running, or they might get suspiciuos and come after you.
Remember that the 'under bar' was only used when he was masquarading as Internal Affairs, when they went into the Leather S31 uniforms, there was no insignia at all...
Owen, I see your point, the insignia does work that way weel, Now I have to choose whether I like the fleet captain or my original opinion of an Intellgence officer rank...
Of course in my idea, it puts IA into Starfleet Intelligence...
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Dan.
"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"
[This message has been edited by Dan Gurden (edited 05-17-2001).]
In naval history (U.S) a Fleet Admiral is a five star. . .the stars aranged in the form of a pentagon. The rank has not been used in the U.S since World War Two; when there were four of them (I might be mistaken on the number). (As a side note. . .some navies call there five stars, as in Germany, Grand Admiral.)Quote:
Originally posted by SIR SIG:
Theoretically a Fleet Admiral should be a 5 star admiral right? Or are they a fleet adm in name only and as such head up a whole fleet worth of ships, maybe even multiple sectors worth.
For the sake of nothing else I'd make a Fleet Captain a 5 pip rank. And a Commordore a 1 star Admiral.
But thats just me http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
Calguard, true. I should have been more precise. To clarify:Quote:
Originally posted by calguard66:
In the US military all Warrant Officers are technically "commissioned" when they are promoted to WO2... it is for certain UCMJ reasons and other legalities.
Warrant officers are not comissioned. Chief Warrant Officers ARE comissioned.
This is basically what it all boils down to from a 12 year veteran in the greatest Navy in the whole worls. Enlisted are specialist they are there to learn one specific job and to become subject matter experts. Officers are generalist they learn a little bit about everything taught to them by senior enlisted personnel, JO (Junoir Officer) should do well if they are liked and respected by enlisted people, Officers careers can be made of broke by enlisted personel. Yes we can severly screw an officers career up.
This is an excellent attitute for an NCO "rival" of a junior officer to have.Quote:
Originally posted by Thierry:
This is basically what it all boils down to from a 12 year veteran in the greatest Navy in the whole worls. Enlisted are specialist they are there to learn one specific job and to become subject matter experts. Officers are generalist they learn a little bit about everything taught to them by senior enlisted personnel, JO (Junoir Officer) should do well if they are liked and respected by enlisted people, Officers careers can be made of broke by enlisted personel. Yes we can severly screw an officers career up.
Some long-service NCOs are resentful of officer authority, and attempt to bully junior officers because it gives them a feeling of acomplishment or control.
What most fail to realize is that it is their job to train and mentor the new officer... while at the same time not undermining their authority.
A good officer recognizes and utilizes the experience and ability of their NCOs... a good NCO passes that experience along, while recognizing that the officer not only has the authority, but bears the ultimate responsibility as well.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
Well, it wouldn't be specific to Section 31... since Section 31 doesn't exist.Quote:
Originally posted by JALU3:
I always thought that the 'under bar' was ment to signify their status as Sec31 members, not to mention those uniforms. Do not in that episode, the two LT's in the shot also had the 'under bar'. Thus this means that the 'under bar' isn't specific to CAPT Sloan.
Therefore I would be careful if, inside game, or outside for that matter, if you meet an officer with a little gold line/bar underneath their pips. Don't start running, or they might get suspiciuos and come after you.
Crewman: "What's that bar under your rank insignia mean, Sir?"
Sloan: "It means I belong to a super-secret intelligence organization nobody knows about..."
It might mean he is an IG or Internal Affairs Officer... but since the ST costumes department seems to do such things for no reason whatsoever, I'd just ignore it.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain