Unnecessary skill ?

Let's see if I can throw a loophole into just about every Starfleet overlay ...

Anyone else thinking that Vehicle Operation (Shuttlecraft) would be better served by using Shipbard System (Flight Control) ?

Shuttles basically have all the same characteristics as any other ship. Warp drive, weapons, sensors etc etc etc ...
Every Starfleet character has some rating in Shipboard Systems so could pilot and work the systems on a shuttle with that skill regardless of whether they have the (Flight Control) specialty for piloting ...

Seems a little unnecessary to me ...

The loophole then becomes replacing every overlay with something in its place ... especially the odd one that have it at 2 (3) level ...

Still pondering new skills from other sources and such and a whole new way of doing Starfleet overlays and advanced training to replace the whole "command" as a branch right from the get go. So this skill was one of the ones that had me wondering about its value ...

Even the Fighter Pilot overlay in the DWS uses Shipboard Systems and the fighter's are no bigger than the shuttles. It makes sense to me that that's how it should be as you need a crew to work all the systems, otherwise you would think it would all be covered under Vehicle Operation (Fighters) as shuttles are, but that overlay has Vehicle Operation (Armored Assault Craft or other aircraft).
So I'd see Vehicle Operation covering the non-warp capable atmospheric craft, workbees etc & land/water/air vehicles.

I don't really understand why ICON makes some of these distinctions, especially since half of the skill roles you'd make with a Shuttle would be indistinguishable in description from a larger ship. What's the difference, really? That it can enter an atmosphere?

I think it was a case of the two being separate skills in FASA.

How about a less severe alteration and go with Shipboard Systems (Shuttle) and a new sepecailty that applies to asll the systems on the smaller craft. There are some real world difference between a Battleship and it's launch.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

I don't really understand why ICON makes some of these distinctions, especially since half of the skill roles you'd make with a Shuttle would be indistinguishable in description from a larger ship. What's the difference, really? That it can enter an atmosphere?

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Exactly. Personally I like the idea that a shuttle is strictly an impulse driven small vessel. Obviously that's shot all to hell by canon ...
Seems odd to me you have such a sophisticated, and LARGE, area on starships as engineering, yet for a tiny little shuttle you basically have all the same features just to a much lesser degree and don't even need ,for all appearances sake, a warp core.

I agree with Tonyg that it was possibly a case of following FASA's lead in having a Starship Helm skill & a separate shuttle skill.

Maybe, if I'm thinking of re-writing a lot of stuff to my tastes anyways, I'll just scrap the whole warp-capabale shuttlecraft/fighter/small craft thing altogether ... maybe limit warp-capability to Runabouts and larger ...

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Originally Posted by tonyg

I think it was a case of the two being separate skills in FASA.

How about a less severe alteration and go with Shipboard Systems (Shuttle) and a new sepecailty that applies to asll the systems on the smaller craft. There are some real world difference between a Battleship and it's launch.

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I agree with you in theory, definitely with the real world scenario. But it seems the games have made shuttlecraft tiny spaceships, helm, ops, tactical etc on a lot.

I agree with your point, specifically along the lines of my own thinking that shuttles should just be small impulse craft. Then I would indeed see a MAJOR difference in the level of skill involved in running a starship and a shuttle.

Sooooooooo, maybe what I may end up doing then is keeping Vehicle Operation with specialties like Shuttlecraft and Fighter etc and specify that they're all non-warp ...

Guess if I really want to make more work for myself, that's a good way to start ! :)

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Originally Posted by RealPity

I agree with you in theory, definitely with the real world scenario. But it seems the games have made shuttlecraft tiny spaceships, helm, ops, tactical etc on a lot.

I agree with your point, specifically along the lines of my own thinking that shuttles should just be small impulse craft. Then I would indeed see a MAJOR difference in the level of skill involved in running a starship and a shuttle.

Sooooooooo, maybe what I may end up doing then is keeping Vehicle Operation with specialties like Shuttlecraft and Fighter etc and specify that they're all non-warp ...

Guess if I really want to make more work for myself, that's a good way to start ! :)

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But shuttle can be warp capable.
I was just thinking that training in shuttlecraft could apply to doing more that flying the shuttle (like Engines, sensors whatever) but only because the shuttle is less complex that a larger vessel. Flight Ops could apply to flying the shuttle, but not for any other shuttle related tasks. On the other hand, the shuttle specialty wouldn't apply to other types of ships.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by tonyg

Flight Ops could apply to flying the shuttle, but not for any other shuttle related tasks.

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Like what?

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Like what?

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Basically any sort of Shipboard Systems roll the related to a shuttlecraft.

The idea is that the character has specialized in knowledge of shuttlecraft systems. THe trade off is that the specialization wouldn't apply to any rolls made off of a shuttle the way Flight Ops would apply to a ship.

I think there is a distinction that can be accepted here between the two skills, making them both necessary.

I understand that we are talking technology levels well-beyond any comparison I make below, but you have to agree that piloting a small Boston Whaler is a far cry different than that of a cruise liner. The Boston Whaler has a very simple, rudimentary guidance system and controls... a cruise liner has numerous systems that drive the ship. Also, you need to take into account size, mass, etc.

How about comparing the tech needed to fly an F-22 or a Cesna? Some might think the Cesna more difficult for the limited computer aid in keeping the plane in its flight path. Let's go up a notch... how about a 747? More mechanics but less maneuverability, but less demand on the pilot... maybe. Then again, the 747 pilot has to monitor a lot more systems... different set of skills, although they are in the same grouping.

So, taking this to the future - a starship has a huge computer core, along with numerous redundant systems, that are constantly assisting the helmsman and navigator in keeping pitch and yaw of the vessel. The computer is scanning forward of the ship to see far beyond the pilot's eyes, and it adjusts the course (or at least warns) as needed.

A futuristic shuttle certainly has a tech level beyond the smaller comparisons above, but it can't possess the same size of systems or computing power. It can't have the same number of stabilizers, thrusters, etc. But it is lighter, and I know in a vaccuum that is not a major issue, so its flight might be a bit more erratic.

Thus the need for two distinct flight skills.

Anyway, just a couple cents I thought I'd throw in.

From my search for fan made ICON skills/specialisations I seem to recall seeing three FASA pilot skills: Starship Helm, Shuttle Pilot & Small Craft Pilot. How and why Small Craft does not include shuttles I have no idea.

This has been a topic going way back to when I joined these boards. Just two examples I found using my Computer (Search-fu) 0 (1). :p

Question on fighter pilots & skills

Question on Shipboard Systems vs. Vehicle Operation

Hmmm, same discussions, guess I should have done a search.

So if you limit Vehicle Operation to size 1 or 2 craft & 3+ uses Shipboard Systems, that then brings up the whole "Now what about attack fighters and Talon scouts that are size 2 ?" question ... guess you can make exceptions for anything that isn't a "shuttle", but then again the whole thing isn't really making sense.

I BELIEVE the FASA shuttle skill would have been going on an assumption that TOS didn't use warp capable shuttles, but I could be way off ... haven't seen any episodes in ages that had shuttles used.

But Vehicle Operation covers things like cars... it seems weird that someone with Vehicle Operations (Buggy) would be able to apply that to shuttlecraft piloting. What if you combine shuttlecraft operations into Starship Systems (Shuttlecraft) and replace vehicle ops with Primitive Vehicle Systems?

Damn ICON skill lists. They fell into this hole between too specific without enough points to make it worthwhile to be broadly capable.

I know, that's why I thought in the first place Shipboard Systems relates more to it. Sure they may be simplified versions of what's on starships, but they are in essence the same sort of systems, for game purposes they all work the same. If you have to use Shipboard Systems to use sensors & fire phasers etc, then why would the piloting be excluded. Makes no sense.
You're absolutely right about Vehicle Operations, the 1 (2) grants you the 1 in ANY vehicle in the category ... I'm with you, ground vehicles, hover vehicles, aircars & buggy's relate more to each other than shuttles (a starship basically albeit waaaay scaled down) does.

We had this discussion once in our group.

I simply told my players that not everyone gets training on full fledged Shipboard systems. This way a scientist does not need to spend any skills on shipboard systems at all (if he chooses not to choose sensors) and still be able to steer a shuttle at least. If in a generous mood a Narrator might allow such a character even a chance to fly a Star ship...with some hefty penalties

Guess I have to gauge how I want to do it seeing as all the shuttle systems and shuttles as spacecraft themselves work absolutely the same (rules-wise, unless I've missed something) as any other ship ... therein lies my whole reason for pondering this in the first place.

Hmmmm, still leaning towards Shipboard Systems at this point as the base in that skill without specialties covers all systems, kinda like it's being suggested the Vehicle Ops (Shuttle) skill covers all systems ...

I'm thinking of leaving Vehicle Operation more for the ground vehicles, aircraft, atmospheric type vessels ... workbees, impulse-only shuttles, things of that sort. Still a valuable skill to some Overlays ... Engineers come to mind with regards to workbees and such

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Originally Posted by RealPity

Guess I have to gauge how I want to do it seeing as all the shuttle systems and shuttles as spacecraft themselves work absolutely the same (rules-wise, unless I've missed something) as any other ship ... therein lies my whole reason for pondering this in the first place.

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Yeah, but that is probably due to the nature of the rules. As far as the system goes, all the other vehicles work the same too.

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Originally Posted by RealPity

Hmmmm, still leaning towards Shipboard Systems at this point as the base in that skill without specialties covers all systems, kinda like it's being suggested the Vehicle Ops (Shuttle) skill covers all systems ...

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That was what I was suggesting with the Shipboard Systems (Shuttle) idea. Basically, I can see some overlap. For instance a pilot who is skilled in 23rd-24th centruy atomposheric creat is probably cable of piloting a shuttle, much the way a 21st centruy prop plane pilot has some overlap with the skills of a jet pilot.

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Originally Posted by RealPity

I'm thinking of leaving Vehicle Operation more for the ground vehicles, aircraft, atmospheric type vessels ... workbees, impulse-only shuttles, things of that sort. Still a valuable skill to some Overlays ... Engineers come to mind with regards to workbees and such

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But that has some rough spots too. THw workbee is operating basically the same as a shuttle. If you tack on a impulse or warp module, or one of the super/killer/assault "sleds" then you would need another skill to cover it.

Personally, I think Shipboard Systems should work for all vehicles with a LCARS type interface (or similar for pre-LCARS ships) and vehicle ops reserved for craft with steering wheels, flight sticks and such. I'd probably let one substitute for the other at half ability it it was related.

For instacne, FLight Ops can probably overlap a beit with most flying vehicle ops, and Sensors are probably sensors.

"Yeah, but that is probably due to the nature of the rules. As far as the system goes, all the other vehicles work the same too."

Hmmm, good point, must go through DWS and see how/if it's suggested the various systems on say a hovertank are handled ...
Weapons, Sensors and such all covered through Veh Ops or just the movement of the vehicle ....

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Originally Posted by RealPity

"Yeah, but that is probably due to the nature of the rules. As far as the system goes, all the other vehicles work the same too."

Hmmm, good point, must go through DWS and see how/if it's suggested the various systems on say a hovertank are handled ...
Weapons, Sensors and such all covered through Veh Ops or just the movement of the vehicle ....

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I've got mixed feelings about the DWS. I have a hard time accepting that a tank does less damage than a hand phaser.

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Originally Posted by tonyg

I've got mixed feelings about the DWS. I have a hard time accepting that a tank does less damage than a hand phaser.

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For me it was seeing the massively jumped up Deflector Shield rates (90's 100's+) that blew away Galaxys and Sovereigns ... figured they should all be halfed or three-quartered to keep things level with the published stuff.

I see it refers to using Vehicle Operations for driving vehicles but Shipboard Systems for (Sensors) and (Tactical/Weapon Systems) etc ... so I guess no different than what the main rules seems to imply. Everything but movement on anything is Shipboard Systems and movement only is Vehicle Ops for shuttles.

Seems like Vehicle Operation (Heavy Vehicle) would be an appropriate skill for tanks and personel carriers. Where there every any pictures of these things? Just wondering what a Federation tank would look like, tracked or an anti-grav thing and stff like that.

Nope, just FASA did that I think ... I seem to recall ground vehicle drawings in the Klingon supplement

So I found a picture of a tank I was going to write up. I got out my copy of the Dominion War Sourcebook and looked over the rules for ground vehicles.

Anyone else think rating ground vehicles with speeds en excess of 1,000 kph a bit much? No need to put anti-personnel wepons on these things--there is no way you could react fast enough to get out of ones way!

It currently is a ten minute drive for me to get to work. Get me a hover craft from the Dominion War book and it would be a three second trip. Hell, that's even quicker than beaming, isn't?

To say nothing of something like a grenade launcher ... you'd be going so fast it'd end up on your own roof or in your lap as tried to fire one ahead to clear a path ... guess that'd be side and rear arcs only ...