Proposed ICON changes

Thought I'd start a thread of ideas to improve upon ICON with all the work being done in the past few days.

Here's some ideas and/or desires to start:

After a quick discussion with Redwood973, re-word Shipboard Systems to System Operation (as per CODA) to alleviate a problem with people on ground-based facilities or such.

I had an idea that I'd like to see some more skills needing separate levels for different choices rather than specializations.
Certain skills don't seem to me that you would have a base level of at least 1 in everything ... so, such things as: Culture, History, Theology, Law, World Knowledge (again, much like CODA)
Or, for a cheaper cost, is the idea of zero level skills more appealing to deal with this ?

A way to convert CODA's starship system, or something similar, to ICON ... especially with regards to loosing the power distribution system ...

There's already a discussion on my questioning what skill for shuttles ... Shipboard Systems or Vehicle Operation, I lean towards Shipboard Systems.

I've proposed some other skills from other sources (mostly FASA) in other threads. I like Carousing and see it as a specialization of Persuasion or Charm to indicate how successful an impression you make or how well you network as opposed to Streetwise where I see something like (Locate Nightlife) to actually get into the scene. Damage Control as a specialty of either Engineering or as a separate skill used by Communications Officers or Ops officers (depending or era), some discussion was had as to whether it's a "hands on" or a "coordinating the techs" skill ... I lean towards a separate coordination skill by the comm/ops that could then grant a bonus to the engineers ...

Perhaps the Repair and Construct skills from CODA being incorporated into ICON ...

Anyone else ?

I once did a write-up to use the CODA ship rules with ICON, because they were much better. Should be up on my old page. It's probably way from perfect, but maybe it can give you a start.

Besides that I would also recommend redoing attribute-tests. The system does work ackwardly when you have to use base attributes, e.g. like forcing open a door with strength. As a house rule we decided that edges may be used as points added to the dice roll instead of extra dice, but this helped only marginally.

Some here.

Cool, thanks both

Some suggestions for tweaks:

1) Attributes: Rather that apply the +2, -1 etc from thing's like Strength, just used the total. For damage use (Fitness+Strength)/2-1. That way a character with Fitness 5 will be Stronger than one with Fitness 1 Strength +1.

For some physical tests, like lifting and running, give a certain "free" amount based on the stats then roll when exceeding it. So if a character could lift, say 100kg per Fit+Str or so without a roll, then a Gorn would be able to lift more than, Captain Kirk -something it generally can't do now.

2) For specilizations, I always liked the way the D6 system did it-expcet in Star Wars. In the other D6
games, the specialization added to the base skill. So you could have System Operation (Sensors) 2 (+1) or some such.

The advantage is that it is much cheaper to buy a +1 that it is to, say, raise a 3 to a 4. Likewise raising a +1 to a +2 is cheaper than raising a 4 to a 5.

That would Make skills more like Attributes, and open the door for getting rid of the biggest problem with character generation-the way all those 1(2) skills don't add.


3) Haven't seen Evan's rules for using CODA stats in ICON. I have been working on doing up a ship construction book and am trying to get it to work for both CODA and ICON. TO be honest, I'd love to chuck out the Power stat and go with some rule for weak/rundundat power grid. Getting rid of power allocation really speeds things along and the CODA maneuvers are a lot more like the TV shows.

RealPity, there are a lot of specializations scattered throughout the ICON books that do not appear in the consolidated list of the books. They are in character write ups, Overlays and packages. I'm going through all the books again for the Consolidated Skills List I'm making, which will also include fan made skills. Once all lumped together this Consolidated Skill List will change things a little bit (one example is Fast Talk becoming a specialization of Influence). There already is an option in the Players Guide to drop the Specializations from certain skills and make each specialization it's own skill as is done with the Language skill. I've not cut the specializations for these skills, but I've made a notation for those skills for which this is a valid option.

Looking over the fan made skills/specializations it looks like most are additions from other game systems, which reminds me. . .I have a B5 book here that I was reading thru and found a cool skill I wanted to add to the list. Need to see if I can find that again.

Where you thinking of just renaming Shipboard Systems to become Systems Operation? As that still would imply anyone with Systems Operation could man the helm of a starship because he has "Systems Operation (Medical Systems)" to use in his private practice in a nice little office in Boston. I'm thinking it might be better to go Knoweldge: Medical Systems to let the good doctor use his biobed and the whatnots around his office, but stopping him from jumping on the controls and helming the good ship Enterprise while taking a tour.

Here is what I wrote for an optional skill system when I worked on Fantasy ICON many years ago. Sorry but the table formatting got screwed up. :(

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Skills (Optional Skills System)

Presented here is an optional skills system you can use in Fantasy ICON. While it remains compatible with other ICON games, some of the finer details work a bit differently than what you may be familiar with. The specific changes have to do with skill specialisations and how they can be improved over your character’s lifetime.

In Fantasy ICON, your character has skills and specialisations in those skills—just like in other ICON games. However, your character can only gain a specialisation in a skill at up to two levels higher than his base skill. When you first acquire a skill, you automatically gain one specialisation at +1. The cost of the first specialisation your character gains in a skill is included in the cost to gain the base skill—you don’t pay extra for it.

Furthermore, once your character gains a specialisation in a skill, he never loses it, even if he improves his base skill afterwards. In other words, your character’s specialisations never actually “bottom out” with his base skills if his base skills improve—although specialisations can increase when you spend points to improve them separately from base skills.

Specialisations are listed alongside your character’s base skills as modifying values, or ‘+X’. By improving a specialisation from +1 to +2, you are stretching your character’s knowledge of the specialisation to even greater heights. This expertise, however, doesn’t affect your overall knowledge of the base skill, so it remains at the same level when you improve a specialisation. Improving a single specialisation to +2 (or gaining a new one at +1) always costs less Experience Points (or Development Points during character creation) than improving your overall base skill by one level.

For instance, if your character has the History skill at level 1, and his specialisation is Ancient History +1, his skill is listed as follows: History (Ancient) 1 (+1). What this means is that when you roll dice for your character to make a History test, you add the skill level of 1 to the highest die rolled if the test uses the base skill History. You add the skill level of 2 if the test uses the specialisation Ancient History (because the specialisation adds +1 to your base skill).

The main changes under this optional skills system are that your character can only have specialisations of +2, and when you combine his skill levels and specialisations he can wind up with +8 bonuses to most skill tests.

For instance, in other ICON games, the maximum skill level a character can have is 6 (including specialisations). Under this optional system, the maximum skill and specialisation total is 6 (+2), or 8, for most skills or 6 for skills without specialisations.

Skill Groups

Some skills, such as Languages, Area Knowledge, Artistic Expression, Craft and Weaponry (to name just a few) cover a wide knowledge base and are termed Skill Groups. Each of the skills within these groups is actually a separate base skill in its own right (sometimes called a sub-skill) with its own specialisations. You improve each of your character’s skills and specialisations in a skill group separately.

For instance, if your character has levels in the skill group Weaponry, you must choose the specific skill (such as Bladed Weapons or Axes) as well as a specialisation (such as Longsword or Battleaxe). When recording these skills, you note them as follows: Skill Group: Skill (Specialisation). For example, if your character has 2 levels in Bladed Weapons and a Longsword specialisation of +1, record his skill and specialisation like so: Weaponry: Bladed Weapons (Longsword) 2 (+1).

Skills without Specialisations

Some skills do not have specialisations, such as Fast Talk, Research, Runes, and Search. These kinds of skills are very broad in application and don’t require any degree of specialisation. Your character is just as capable of using his Search skill in a dungeon corridor as he is in a city alleyway, for example. When you make a test for a skill without a specialisation, you simply roll the appropriate number of dice based on the controlling attribute and add your character’s skill level to the highest die to determine the overall test result.

Improving Skills and Specialisations

In Fantasy ICON, you improve your character’s skills and specialisations the same way you do in other ICON games: You spend either Development Points to improve them during character creation or you spend Experience Points to improve them during game play.

During game play, you are only allowed to improve your character’s skills by one level at a time. You cannot improve a skill from level 1 to 3 in one shot, for example. However, you may spend the points to improve one of your character’s base skills by one level as well as improve a specialisation by one level, or gain a new specialisation completely.

For example, you could improve your character’s History (Ancient) skill from 1 (+1) to 2 (+1) or even to 2 (+2), but you could not raise it to 3 (+1). Alternately, you could raise his History (Ancient) skill from 1 (+1) to 2 (+1) and add a second +1 specialisation in Elven History. Your character’s new skill would look like this: History (Ancient, Elven) 2 (+1).

There are no limits to the number of specialisations a character may have in a single skill. If you want to spend the points for your character to specialise in every aspect of a skill, knock yourself out.

For your reference, below is a modified table that lists the costs of improving skills at different levels under this optional skill system. In the Narrator’s chapter, you’ll find a complete table listing the costs to improve all your character’s features: attributes and edges, skills and specialisations, advantages and disadvantages, and so forth.


*Characters cannot start the game with a skill level greater than 3 (+2) or 5 for skills without specialisations.

Included below are some examples showing you how to improve a character’s skills and specialisations, and the associated EP and DP costs.

For example, History is a base skill with numerous specialisations. Therefore, it costs 3 XP (or 3 DP during character creation) to raise your character’s History (Ancient) skill from 1 (+1) to 2 (+1).

To raise your character’s Weaponry: Bladed Weapons (Longsword) skill—Weaponry is a skill group with sub skills and specialisations—from 1 (+1) to 2 (+1) also costs 3 XP (or DP).

If you decide to improve your character’s History (Ancient) skill specialisation from 2 (+1) to 2 (+2), you must spend 2 XP (or 1 DP if you are improving the specialisation during character creation). In this case, you want to improve his specialised knowledge of ancient history but not his overall knowledge of history.

If you want to add a second specialisation, elven history, to your character’s History (Ancient) 2 (+2) skill, you have to spend 2 XP (or 1 DP during character creation). Your character’s new skill would be History (Ancient)(Elven) 2 (+2)(+1).

If, after many successful adventures, your character has the skill History (Ancient) 4 (+2) and you want to raise it to 5 (+2), you have to spend 5 XP. Likewise, if your character has Weaponry: Bladed Weapons (Longsword) 4 (+1) and you want to improve it to 5 (+1), you have to spend 5 XP.

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I use the following house rules for Renown. I believe these may originally be Owen Oulton's house rules, or someone elses (I forget honestly), but I liked them and decided to use them. If anyone recognises their house rules, please speak up!

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House Rules for Renown

In the official character generation rules, the characters get one free point of Renown. A very few Tours of Duty award Renown, but the PCs by and large wind up with far fewer Renown points than they should, given the guidelines in the TNG core book for command-level characters.

I also award Renown based on Advantages and Disadvantages. I use the Commendations Advantage from the TNG Players' Guide as a pattern – for instance, having the "Species Enemy" Disadvantage would net you X number of negative Openness Renown points, based on how many points you gained from the Disadvantage - 2 points of Renown per DP spent/gained. Use common sense for this, but as a rule, any Advantage/Disadvantage that specifies a reputation should have Renown attached. Likewise, I give one point of Skill Renown for every Specialisation held at 4+.

Negative Renown:

Per comments made by Ross Isaacs in the TrekRPG.net Forums, both Negative and Positive Renown add to the Total Renown. To this end, I track Negative Renown separately from Positive Renown - it does not subtract from Positive Renown. Thus, a character may have:
Renown: 9
Aggression: 0
Discipline: +3 / -2
Initiative: 2
Openness: -2
Skill: 0
Luck: 0

If a Renown Test is being made against an aspect in which the character has both Negative and Positive Renown, rolls are made against both scores, in order to determine in which context the character is known.

Renown (Luck):

In every story or campaign, there's always a character who has a reputation for being extremely lucky or unlucky. Some people can fall headfirst into a pile of industrial waste and find a bar of gold-pressed latinum at the bottom, while others can cause a warp core breach simply by walking into Engineering. Luck Renown is awarded by the Narrator during play, and may not be taken during character generation. Luck Renown is treated the same as other Renown categories.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tonyg

2) For specilizations, I always liked the way the D6 system did it-expcet in Star Wars. In the other D6
games, the specialization added to the base skill. So you could have System Operation (Sensors) 2 (+1) or some such.

The advantage is that it is much cheaper to buy a +1 that it is to, say, raise a 3 to a 4. Likewise raising a +1 to a +2 is cheaper than raising a 4 to a 5.

That would Make skills more like Attributes, and open the door for getting rid of the biggest problem with character generation-the way all those 1(2) skills don't add.

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Most definitely appealing ! I only ever played SW D6, wasn't aware of this, thanks !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redwood973

Where you thinking of just renaming Shipboard Systems to become Systems Operation? As that still would imply anyone with Systems Operation could man the helm of a starship because he has "Systems Operation (Medical Systems)" to use in his private practice in a nice little office in Boston. I'm thinking it might be better to go Knoweldge: Medical Systems to let the good doctor use his biobed and the whatnots around his office, but stopping him from jumping on the controls and helming the good ship Enterprise while taking a tour.

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I'll have to dig out a CODA book and see if they addressed this in any way seeing as it goes with System Operation. Probably be the easiest unless it leads to what you suggest, which would indeed make no sense ! Not that any bored country doctor wouldn't like to fly a giant explorer ... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liquidator Queeg

I use the following house rules for Renown. I believe these may originally be Owen Oulton's house rules, or someone elses (I forget honestly), but I liked them and decided to use them. If anyone recognises their house rules, please speak up!

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It is indeed from Owen's site, I've been using this since discovering it, makes a lot of sense and you don't get stuck with just 1 point of renown to start

Converting the CODA starship rules mostly consists of dividing any TN by 1/3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Converting the CODA starship rules mostly consists of dividing any TN by 1/3.

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Seems almost too simple !

I'd like to take a close look at CODA (including ESO), ICON, FASA & Spacedock and see exactly what I like from each and what systems from all work best (for my tastes anyway) and come up with some way to mesh it all together into a feasible system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealPity

Seems almost too simple !

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Well, it's not like it resembles the regular combat system or anything; it's a dedicated minisystem and as such, can be swapped out as long as you get the connectors (in this case, the TNs) right.

Sinced eachdifficultygade is worth :3 inICON and :5 inCODA, and a Average task in TN 7 in ICON and 10 in CODA, I'd thing the conversion would be 3/5th:1.

you mean 0.6:1?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

you mean 0.6:1?

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I think Tatterdemalion is a Vulcan. :p

RealPitty, anything yet on how CODA dealt with the issue of letting someone use a limited knowledge of systems operation taking over the helm of a starship? Kind of curious to see how that was dealt with, if it was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redwood973

RealPity, there are a lot of specializations scattered throughout the ICON books that do not appear in the consolidated list of the books. They are in character write ups, Overlays and packages. I'm going through all the books again for the Consolidated Skills List I'm making, which will also include fan made skills.

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A while back I extended the list found on Owen's website with skills and advantages and disadvantages from fanbooks and also other icon books and even some fan based stuff. It is most definitly not complete but I can see if I can find it. If you want you can use it as a starting point.

Thanks guys, as far as skills, traits & species etc go I've pretty much copied all from fan-based sourcebooks or individual stuff posted and compiled master lists

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redwood973

RealPitty, anything yet on how CODA dealt with the issue of letting someone use a limited knowledge of systems operation taking over the helm of a starship? Kind of curious to see how that was dealt with, if it was.

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Sorry, nope. Slacking abit with real life and haven't the player's guide out yet

Yeah, tell me about real life. It's been a pain these last days. I need to get some serious sleep. Been lacking as of late. I noticed the other day while reviewing my conversions of the civilian overlays from the Andorian book that the ones in the book already are 36-point Overlays! :o

Oh well, maybe I can salvage them for release as general civilian overlays rather than Andorian being specific.

Ugh. Admiral, RealPity I wish I had known that sooner! LOL I've worn myself out going through countless threads searching for skills and specializations. I had pretty much given up, figuring my search-fu had taken me as far as it could. Right now I'm finishing up going through each of the LUG published books, the untaken works and the fan released supplements. Well, maybe we can put our three works together? Between the three of us we should be sure to have everything!

Liquidator Queeg (or anyone who can answer this question)

If I adopt the optional skills system, how does this effect things like in character generation when taking overlays and getting repeats of the same skill? Or do I just reduce the skill to it's point cost and apply it that way? How should the overlays reflect the change?