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Does anyone have any thoughts on what Starfleet looks like after the war with the Borg in Destiny? I just finished it and I really like the story and even where the galaxy is sitting after, it could harken back to the days of TOS with ships being the only Federation presence for sectors.
The ships are easy to replace. It's the CREWS that will be hard to replace.
Depending on how you view the economy in Trek... It'll take less time to harvest energy and raw matter for the replicators to make new ship-parts. It'll take MUCH longer to train up new crews and break them in.
Perhaps it will resemble certain aspects of Star Trek Online... with "commanders" fresh out of School commanding small basic starships on various runs around the Federation. The surviving "seasoned" captains being given the various defense and exploration missions.
Figure if nothing happens (HA!) it'll take about 12 years (three graduating classes) of several thousand cadets before Starfleet starts really gaining strength again.
I also assume we would see a decline in the number of Big Ships (Galaxies and Sovvies) and more Miranda-like ships. More Defiant-like ships. Easier to produce... highly automated and equipped with basic equipment.
One thing we will see is an increase in slipstream-equipped ships though. Might as well equip all the new ships with Slipstream Drive from construction!
Another thing we may see is more regional defense fleets. Planets begin construction of "native designs" and fielding their own navies to bolster regional defenses. This means we see more Andorian and Vulcan ships. Other planets either buy or build their own ships.
Just some ideas I'm tossing around. I'm getting ready to game again and I want to set my RPG in a Post Destiny/Post Romulan/STO timeline... These are some of the concepts I am tossing around.
Interesting take on it, with the STO included. I think I like in a way the idea of going back to one captain, one ship and crew out there mostly on their own. The slipstream ships won't be comming around much though as Typhon books explained because you cannot just retrofit it - something about the design of the Vesta makes it possible and future ships will have to be designed with it in mind.
It'll be mostly older ships for the first few years. The next "generation" of ships and crews graduating from SFA will be marvels of design and technology.
+AI computer systems. Maybe not Andromeda-level but more advanced than TNG.
+Holo-emitters integrated into the ship at a fundamental level.
+While still maintaining the nomenclature "PHASER" and "Torpedo" the weapons of such ships will be far more advanced. Chronometric torps.... Quantum torps... Plasma and other types will be stocked aboard the larger vessels. A computer system will select the appropriate weapon for the situation and recommend it to the captain/tactical officer. Shielding will be far more advanced... and the hull will regenerate via transporter/nano-bot repair.
+Slipstream drive will have replaced warp drive on these newer vessels. Warp drive will still be used on older vessels but everything built after (say) five game years after the start of the game will be slip-stream. Including shuttles and runabouts.
+On the crew side... look for training on how to handle trans-dimensional incursions and time-travel situations as part of the normal training package. Medical facilities have the ability to regenerate a totally "dead" crew member under certain specific conditions (*) and the overall quality of life aboard even the smallest "warship" is a quantum leap above TNG standards. This is necessary because Slipstream allows for much longer duration voyages than Warp Drive did.
+Personal technology has evolved... personal shields are normal on Away Missions. As are holographic imaging drones and RPVs.... The crew back aboard can follow what is happening in real time.
Encountering one of these newer "Starfleet Jewels" could be an episode in itself. Especially if something has gone wrong on it's maiden voyage. PLAYER-CHARACTERS TO THE RESCUE!!! :D
(*) ]Depends on the mood of the Game Master. If you're a sadistic jerk like me :D then you force the player character to roll up a chicken or a cow and play as that for half a session... or give them three impossible tasks to fulfill in the after-life... MUAHAHAHAA!
Some of those are getting so fantastic that it sort of makes me shy away honestly. The Holo emiters are a definite ugh to me, as are personal shields... I am not so sure I will be all that interested if Trek takes that route, but I will wait and see.
Note that during the Dominion War Starfleet have considerly shorten their Academy courses to make up for the personnel shortage on the frontlines (certain Ferengi was an example of that). So three or four years long Academy graduations is a little bit unrealistic (in my opinion). One year of intense training followed by basic commision. I would suggest you look at the response of many besieged countries during known historical conflicts (WW2 and the like) and super impose it onto the future...
Furthermore and based on your flavour of the Star Trek universe, Starfleet would quite possibly open doors to contractors and members of other allied fleets (Andorian Defence Force, Vulcan Defence Force and the like) and fill in some desperately needed spots with merchant fleet officers. You would see a raise in piracy and an introduction of transport convoys possibly protected by Starfleet escorts and/or other fleet units. You would also see an influx of general entry personnel manning senior positions (seeing chiefs and not lieutenants managing engineering onboard of the starships as one example).
The use of advanced equipment (personal shields, recon drones, combat armour of some kind) is a must, they only reason it was never used in shows was due to special effects limits and budget. You can look up Rapid Response Teams in LUG Star Trek resources and see that said shields (among other equipment) were already in use around the time of DS9 story arc. If you want to go down the path of AI and holograms, that always remains an option, though for me Trek is about human (humanoid) condition and not artificial intelligence and photonic officers (with backup drives and attitudes)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Ramey
In STO they block at MOST two or three shots. There is bleed-through. They prevent you from getting vaped in an ambush. You still need to practice "good combat tactics" otherwise... yeah.
Holoemitters have uses besides creating backup officers
I forgot about that. I can see them doing a couple more "short classes" before switching back to the full program again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polanski
Yes. Two of the character slots I have written up will be for "experienced" officers one from Andoria and one from Vulcan. The Captain will be a nOOb as will the rest of the crew.Quote:
Furthermore and based on your flavour of the Star Trek universe, Starfleet would quite possibly open doors to contractors and members of other allied fleets (Andorian Defence Force, Vulcan Defence Force and the like) and fill in some desperately needed spots with merchant fleet officers. You would see a raise in piracy and an introduction of transport convoys possibly protected by Starfleet escorts and/or other fleet units. You would also see an influx of general entry personnel manning senior positions (seeing chiefs and not lieutenants managing engineering onboard of the starships as one example).
Well it is a logical extension of the processing power. They can create sentient holograms and sentient androids... they are one step away from having sentient computers if they so desired.Quote:
The use of advanced equipment (personal shields, recon drones, combat armour of some kind) is a must, they only reason it was never used in shows was due to special effects limits and budget. You can look up Rapid Response Teams in LUG Star Trek resources and see that said shields (among other equipment) were already in use around the time of DS9 story arc. If you want to go down the path of AI and holograms, that always remains an option, though for me Trek is about human (humanoid) condition and not artificial intelligence and photonic officers (with backup drives and attitudes)...
...or you could take it in the direction Anne MaCaffery did slash what they did in Homeworld: A single person "wired" to become/assist the ship's computer.
Either way the goal is to make the ship even more of a "character" and more interactive to the players.
This setting excites me a lot. I know people have their favorite settings (TNG, DS9, OS), but I've always been a futurist. I loved the future episodes of STar Trek the best. And this sort of a setting would probably excite me the most.
Since Destiny pretty much takes a blowtorch to the Federation, I suppose the real question to ask is... "What fleet?"
Your 'finest crew in Starfleet' -- the players -- discover that they aren't getting a transfer to that brand-new Sovereign-class ship. Instead they are getting an Ambassador-class. "Don't worry - we've fixed the problems with the warp coils..."
I have very mixed feelings about this. The Borg getting 'wished away' smacks a bit too much of the writers painting themselves into a corner (like that never happened on any of the shows...). And don't even get me started on the ultimate fate of Admiral Janeway. Ah well... none of it is canon, so I can take it or leave it.
Actually, getting rid of the Borg is a good thing Nuclear Fridge. They were getting to the point where Trek would need "magic swords: +3 vs bad robots" to beat them! The tech creep was simply awful.
Now, we can get back to stories where the solution to the problem isn't the "Omega Destructo Ray".
Or, hey, maybe they should write stories that aren't variations on Borg War: Battle of the Cyber-Drones. "I, Borg" and "Unity" and "Survival Instinct" are all great Borg-centric episodes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroArmour
Very true, but how long can you keep coming up with stories like that before you end up with repeats on the same theme? Face it, love 'em or lothe 'em, the Borg were played out. They simply weren't all the complex to begin with... And before you start "pwning" me and showing me all the was I'm wrong, let me explane.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
In their natural state you'd never have a Borg with a crisis of conscious/faith, never question their government, never doubt their cause. They're a hive mind, Hugh & Seven were "mutants". All the Borg ever were was a "enemy", never "people".
The Borg work best as an unstoppable force. A boogyman. Something you hope never happens and when it does you pray to God for salvation.
Where things sit in my RPG... the Borg were done away with for the most part by the events of Destiny. There is a brief "Borg flare up" as someone tampering with Borg technology managed to recreate a branch of the collective.... but that will be contained by the characters in a couple of sessions.
Something to ponder though -- what if there is something out there WORSE than the Borg? Maybe the Borg managed to contain this uberthreat through shear collective will and rapid adaptation... and with the Borg gone that threat will come to the forefront... Hmmm... :)
(I am a sadistic bitch yes yes I am. :D)
I don't know, is that a challenge? : PQuote:
Originally Posted by ZeroArmour
The easiest way to not make the Borg appear 'weak' is simply to treat them like you would a natural disaster, or Cthulhu. The point is getting away in time (the Borg will be here in 5 days, can we evacuate the station in time?), or hiding from it til it passes (can we disguise ourselves on a preindustrial planet til the ship leaves?), or avert whatever triggers it (the Romulans, having invented a 'Borg Bait'–fake Omega Molecule readings, I suppose–hide it somewhere on a populated Federation world).Quote:
In their natural state you'd never have a Borg with a crisis of conscious/faith, never question their government, never doubt their cause. They're a hive mind, Hugh & Seven were "mutants". All the Borg ever were was a "enemy", never "people".
But I think you're underestimating the number of approaches you could take to the Borg just from examining the original concept a little closely. For example, how does the hive mind communicate? We've seen that a large amount of biological memory is stored, redundantly, in individual drones. Does that mean a recently-assimilated Borg might end up with a significantly divergent personality from the original, beyond the trauma of assimilation? What if a flawed Borg assimilation process resulted in poor copying of memories or Borg instructional information, leading to a ship slowly reconstructing itself into a parody of a Starfleet vessel?
Or, on the Borg side of memory, ow many 'strains' of Borg are there? I've written before about how Borg have to choose some technology over others, meaning that however much theoretical information is shared amidst the Collective, there's some parts that act and think (which for the Borg, are probably the same thing) differently than others. Discrete differences may exist, but local variations will exist. They adapt, after all, like our own ancestors, and thus it's possible that Borg Collective (or Collectives) do speciate. For example, the Queen–is she, with Locutus, an adaption to hierarchal lifeforms? If you take two Borg ships, toss them both into different galaxies, and wait, will they each select and develop their own Queen? Is the Queen sentient, or is she a parody of sentience emerging from some ancient memory of the Borg? Did Locutus-izing locals work, once? How many civilisations have joined the Collective willingly?
Let's say a Borg ship and a Federation scoutship both crash-land on a 21st century level planet. There's only five Borg left, and their energy needs are great, while the Federation has less technology at their disposal, and wants to get off without interfering with the local culture–who also have a special crash-retrieval team who wants to kill them for their technology, or who want to avoid theoretical infection. Can the Crew team raid the Borg crashsite and cannibalize their technology? What happens if the Borg are already ahead of the curve in adapting local technology–I'd run a game where the players protect the Borg from the locals long enough to piggyback on their signal for rescue.
I think, by classifying the Borg as 'enemy,' you're prejudicing yourself against other dramatic roles they can play. Star Trek, ultimately, isn't about beating anyone, but coming to terms with the differences each lifeform has, and that includes the Borg.
Reminds me of the session a few years back where we had to travel back in time to save Hitler from assassination. Goddamned time-traveling Romulans fuck EVERY thing up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
"Okay, so that's save Hitler, kill JFK, clone Stringberg and transport the Lindberg Baby to Alternative 3–what's the plan for Catherine the Great again?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Marie
"Well..."
On the subject of the Borg, we'll have to agree to disagree, though I do have one last thing to say.
How much of a threat are the Borg really? They get beaten every single time, they're like Marvel comic's "Juggernaut". "Nothing stops the Juggernaut!"... Well, actually he's been beaten by just about everyone but Howard the Duck! That's the Borg, an unstoppable foe that been stopped everytime.
Do you mean 'threatening to players,' or...?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroArmour
I mean in a dramatic sense. Sure the Borg are powerful, so powerful infact that they HAVE to be beaten, one victory would mean the end of everything. That doesn't leave much room to built a complex story. Sure Picard debates if we have the right to destroy them in "I Borg" and one or two other eps, but at the end of the day we have few other options in how we deal with them. With any other advisary you can find alternative options, each race has it's quirks and traits that make it possible to deal with them in ways other than force.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Ronald D. Moore said the following about the Borg.
...they're very limiting in the way they are. They're this huge collective with no voice to communicate to and you can't relate to these guys. We keep saying they're unstoppable and if we keep stopping them it undercuts how unstoppable they truly are.
Guinan says, way back in Q Who, that you might be able to negotiate with them, centuries from now–which might be why the Federation still exists in the 29th century. I'm perfectly happy with the insinuation that they end humanoid life in the galaxy as we know it, though.
A valid point, that. Just a shame Brannon Braga completely ignored it.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroArmour
"Well, the fans really hated the Kazon, and how we kept having the Kazon showing up attacking Voyager... What could be really cool as a bad guy? A bad guy we can keep wheeling out time and time again? A bad guy Captain Janeway keeps beating?
"Hmm..."
And I'm happy with the idea of them beingQuote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
I like my adversaries to be a bit more useful in a dramatic sense.
I've never read the books, and likely never will. So, uh, you're going to have to explain what that means, and why it's spoiler-tag worthy...
In brief - the Caeliar are another super-civilized, super-advanced race with 'godlike' powers who are Cosmic &%&holes. They ignore the rest of the universe, and anyone who stumbles across their home is never allowed to leave. Thanks to some bizarre events, the Borg were created as a side-effect of the NX-02 Columbia finding the Caeliar (and the NX-02 being found in the Gamma Quadrant by Sisko and crew is a footnote to this).
Will Riker and the Titan find the Caeliar, just as the Borg decide to annihilate the Federation and its allies. Cue much superior condescension from the Caeliar, who view the Borg problem as not concerning them. Throw in Captain Ezri Dax and the slipstream drive ship USS Vesta and... I stopped reading at that point. My brains were oozing out of my ears. The Caeliar finally waved a magic wand and made the Borg all go away - incidentally turning Seven of Nine fully human.:rolleyes:
Sorry I was gone a bit... I have to say I feel that the creep in tech was bad with the Borg, and with STO as well, but that is another discussion. I am glad they are gone... I prefer equal but cunning enemies such as the Romulans.
I guess the fleet will be rebuilding with better technology based ships as best and as fast as they can... Which will create a huge gap in older ships such as the Ambassador class that had problems before with keeping up and newer ships that come online for awhile anyway.
Overall I see it as a boon to storytelling - much less dependence on the fleet and more ability of the crew to become famous doing their own missions.
Boo hiss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Fridge
I think it's actually a good origin story to the Borg, and wraps them up really nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
But what the hey, if you wanna be constantly finding new super weapons to counter the Borg until your Trek looks like a war of wizards...
They're not supervillains, why do they need an origin story? It tiny-fying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroArmour
Indeed. I found their first story - Q Who? - to be the most interesting. Picard and crew had no idea what they were facing. Their only sources of information were Q and second-hand accounts from Guinan. Picard was as much in the dark about the Borg as we were. They didn't want to talk. They didn't even view the Enterprise-D as much of an obstacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
It wasn't even an obstacle, it was a delicious morsel. They were especially space-zombie-like there, and it was pretty cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Fridge
I'll agree to that, but with their over use as a major threat they became "big bad of the week". This has made many speculate on their origins and the authors found that the best way to end them was to give them a beginning.Quote:
They're not supervillains, why do they need an origin story? It tiny-fying.
Again I don't dispute this, but if you are going to use something as a threat (and they were suppossed to be a major threat) you have to expand on who and what they are.Quote:
They were especially space-zombie-like there, and it was pretty cool.
It's a rather dull, humanocentric beginning. I'd much prefer if their origins were lost in some vast pre-galactic past.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroArmour
Agreed. That's why I was groaning when Voyager aired 'Dark Frontier'. Retcon in the Hansen family, maverick scientists off hunting the Borg years before 'Q Who?'. It's sure to inject extra coolness...:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
I have nothing against revisiting a villain - if it's done well. But Voyager's writers transformed the Borg into bionic bumblers. The Borg Queen almost became a Scooby Doo bad guy by the time 'Endgame' aired.
"I'd have assimilated the Alpha Quadrant, if it wasn't for that meddling Captain Janeway!!!"
I liked the Hansons, it's the "We've been swept into the Delta Quadrant and we're going to just keep bumming around" part that bugged me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Fridge
I have nothing against revisiting a villain - if it's done well. But Voyager's writers transformed the Borg into bionic bumblers. The Borg Queen almost became a Scooby Doo bad guy by the time 'Endgame' aired.[/quote]
"Almost"? They dropped all the interesting parts of her. I get the sense that RDM was a much better character writer, and that elements outside of his touch (i.e. the Queen post-FC) drop the subtleties which were there at the beginning. Which is to say, the tension between the Queen's apparent singularity and her demonstrations of Borgliness.
When I said 'almost', I meant that she didn't hang out in a creepy abandoned fairground, wearing a Spooky Ghost Suit and scaring the living daylights out of the local property developer...
But yes, post-FC, the Queen's character became 'super-weak', to quote Eric Cartman. Playing head games with Seven of Nine and trying to out-bitch Janeway? I'm surprised the Queen didn't try to stab Kathryn with a nail-file or a sharpened stiletto heel. Bleurk!