WIP New ICON fan sourcebook

I have been working on a little something and its well underway. A Law Enforcement sourcebook that vgaguely started way back when I read the LUG; Raiders, Renegades and Rogues sourcebook and wrote out the Law Enforcer template with some training advancement packs...

owever I have been struggling with some suitable quotes to use in the book that isn't overly politcal or unsitable for the semi optimistic tones of the book.

*I say semi optimistic, when you start trying to pick apart Federation laws and crime events in episodes start to get REALLY contradictory... Anyway...

Can anyone help me with some sitable quotes.

Let me clarify that we may need to tread careful as this does run the rik of getting a bit political and if it does I may have to moderate myself... :eek:

"better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", William Blackstone

"The evidence never lies" - Gilbert Grissom, CSI - it is a Paramount show ;)

I remember in Justice (which I have yet to succeed in wiping from my mind :) ) that Picard implied that Federation science was capable of "detecting the seeds" of violent criminality. I'm not sure how this would work - the sinister side would be some kind of brain scan. The not-so-sinister side would be that people involved with children (teachers, etc) might be well-trained in detecting anti-social or violent tendencies, for which treatment could be sought (and which would hopefully be more efficacious than our current treatments).

Either way, I'm not sure how this bears out in practice, since we have at least three examples of serial killers (or other violent murderers) not only in the Federation, but in Starfleet*, which you would think would be pretty picky when it comes to psychological profiling.

*
Chu'lak, Field of Fire (DS9, Season 7)
Lon Suder, Meld (VOY, Season 2) - although Suder was actually never officially in Starfleet, having come to Voyager via the Maquis.
Walter Pierce, Eye of the Beholder (TNG, Season 7) - not a serial killer, but a murder/suicide perpetrator; pretty violent, IMO!

I'm sure there are others, but they're the ones I can think of off the top of my head...

You can use my overlays for Federation Interstellar Police Agency and Starfleet Security CID if you want. They're here: http://www.coldnorth.com/owen/game/s...es/careers.htm

"Never look for justice, but never cease to give it" - Oswald Chambers

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably" - Judge Aron Satie

From the same episode ("The Drumhead"), there's also mention of "the Seventh Guarantee" in the Federation Constitution, which appears to be more-or-less the US Constitution's Fifth Amendment, as Picard describes it as a protection against incriminating oneself in a legal proceeding.

There's also a couple of goodies from "The Measure of a Man" (I pinched these from Memory Alpha, by the way...my memory's not that good! :) ):

"Your honor, the courtroom is a crucible; in it, we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a purer product: the truth, for all time. Now sooner or later, this man [Commander Maddox] – or others like him – will succeed in replicating Commander Data. The decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of people we are; what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom: expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him [Commander Data] – and all who will come after him – to servitude and slavery? Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life: well, there it sits! Waiting." - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

And the judge's decision in that case:

"It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those. I've got to make a ruling – to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose." Capt. Philippa Louvois (Starlfeet JAG)

Not foundational law, granted, but some interesting "precedent-setting" there. :)

There is also mentioned in that episode the "Acts of Cumberland", which predate the Federation but are still used in arguing precedent, which deal with AI's possessing rights.

Some nice feedback there... Good job all.

Owen. I might just take you up on that, although FIPA may well be the same organisation that I had tagged as Federation Marshall Service. Liking the Starfleet CID though.

Adaron. None of us can forget Justice... I think it was the flimsey crotch hugging costumes... On the men... :eek: (But that was one of the ones that stands out as the most contradictory of legal issues... Death for walking on the flowers???)

But don't forget, that was the planet's law, a planet that wasn't part of or apparently affiliated with the FED. Why they were there in the first place is beyond me, but that's a discussion for another time.

Does the FED have a law enforcement wing? From the show, it seems all criminal investigations are handled by either SF security or SF intelligence. But then that's all we've ever seen of FED society; we see military personel almost exclusivly, and never civilians, let alone the basic elements that would keep a large civilization running.

That said, I do like the idea of Federation Marshals!

Perhaps, we should look towards the one true law enforcement character that the show has shown us: Odo
Where as other security officers have dealt primarily with intra-service issues with ship crewmembers and their dependents, only Odo has done law enforcement geared towards the civilian population.

Odo: Security log, stardate 47284.1 - In this job, there is no unfinished business. This assault on Quark re-opens a five-year-old murder case that I've never, not for a moment, closed. Patience is a lost virtue to most. To me, an ally.

Odo: There's no room in justice for loyalty, or friendship, or love. Justice, as the Humans like to say, is blind.

Odo: That's true. But I know now, whichever side wins, one thing is certain: I'm going to lose.

Odo: There is more to life than the rule of law.

Odo: Your job is to find the truth, not obtain convictions.

Odo: I was too busy, too concerned with maintaining order, and the rule of law. I thought of myself as the outsider, a shapeshifter who cared for nothing but justice. It never occured to me that I could fail. But I did. And I never wanted anyone to know the truth... that seven years ago, I allowed three innocent men to die.

Quark: You want something from me, don't you?
Major Kira: How'd you guess?
Odo: It's simple: we've been here more than a minute, and we haven't insulted him, threatened him or arrested him.

Odo: The one thing I've learned about humanoids is that in extreme situations, even the best of you are capable of doing terrible things.

Odo: I've spent most of my life bringing people to justice. Now that it's my turn, how can I run away?

Odo: A waste of time. Too many people dream of places they'll never go, wish for things they'll never have, instead of paying adequate attention to their real lives.

Odo: The law? Commander, laws change, depending on who's making them - Cardassians one day, Federation the next. But justice is justice.

Odo: Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honor with you.
Chief O'Brien: I didn't figure on dying a martyr.
Odo: Not all of them were martyrs; not all of them died. Some of them were just innocent men - like you.

Quark: From now on, you and I are going to be friends.
Odo: You're up to something.
Quark: Why would you say that?
Odo: Because you're always up to something.

Odo: I remembered something that Eddington once said to me: the best place to hide something is in plain sight.

Odo: I'm always suspicious of people who are eager to help a police officer.

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Originally Posted by JALU3

Odo: Security log, stardate 47284.1 - In this job, there is no unfinished business. This assault on Quark re-opens a five-year-old murder case that I've never, not for a moment, closed. Patience is a lost virtue to most. To me, an ally

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Which episode is that from ? I remember that log entry but I can't pin down, in my mind, which ep it was on !

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Originally Posted by Tricky

Does the FED have a law enforcement wing? From the show, it seems all criminal investigations are handled by either SF security or SF intelligence. But then that's all we've ever seen of FED society; we see military personel almost exclusivly, and never civilians, let alone the basic elements that would keep a large civilization running

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Starfleet would probably have jurisdiction over 99% of what happens in space, it being the primary space-matters wing of the Federation government. In the DS9 Companion commentary on 'Doctor Bashir, I Presume?' RDM mentions his thoughts that Starfleet does seem to have certain law-enforcement powers as well, given that a JAG admiral is responsible for cutting a deal for Sisko vis a vis Bashir and his parents.

Starfleet might also serve as security forces for Federation colonies and outposts which aren't directly administered by another planetary government. (So, say, a large science station would have a Starfleet Security officer to handle those matters, or call upon Starfleet crews to do murder investigations, et cetera.)

I had envisioned FIPA as a 24th century InterPol, rather than a Marshall's Service, but it's your supplement.

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

I had envisioned FIPA as a 24th century InterPol, rather than a Marshall's Service, but it's your supplement.

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To be fair its just a name, it isnt really down as the Marshalls as it is now, I have it as a similar multi-jurisdiction organisation, I just liked the name... :p

Anyway nearly there now. Is it OK to host on your site?

Anyone good at image manipulations?

I had thought to try and get a front page image of a police badge with the UFP Seal on its centre; I had thought the London Metropolitan POlice (But forgot about the crown, which I dont want...)

So the alternative of course would be a slightly more generic US style badge, or a modern sherrif star with the UFP seal embossed in it. Anyone up for mucking about with this?

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Originally Posted by Fugazi Grrl

Which episode is that from ? I remember that log entry but I can't pin down, in my mind, which ep it was on !

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I used IMBD for the quotes; try there.

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Originally Posted by DG

So the alternative of course would be a slightly more generic US style badge, or a modern sherrif star with the UFP seal embossed in it. Anyone up for mucking about with this?

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I like the idea of using the SFPD badge has a basis, we've seen it before within the continuity of Star Trek, and it is fairly plain, and thus easier to manipulate. Also, having lived in the region in the past, it is very common and simple within neighboring jurisdictions.
East Palo Alto
San Mateo
Oakland

Your wish is my command... An inverted San Francisco badge with UFP seal could fill the bill for Marshalls...

http://coldnorth.com/owen/images/MARSHALL.jpg

While for FIPA, a modification of the London badge...

http://coldnorth.com/owen/images/FIPA.jpg

The inversion makes it look like the Commonwealth star, and looks odd to this Yankee in the Law Enforcement realm, even though the Australian Federal Police use it with some embellishments. Of course there is the standard Marshal Badge of Old West fame and its Modern incarnation, that can be used for these Federation Marshals.

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Originally Posted by Aldaron

I remember in Justice (which I have yet to succeed in wiping from my mind :) ) that Picard implied that Federation science was capable of "detecting the seeds" of violent criminality. I'm not sure how this would work - the sinister side would be some kind of brain scan. The not-so-sinister side would be that people involved with children (teachers, etc) might be well-trained in detecting anti-social or violent tendencies, for which treatment could be sought (and which would hopefully be more efficacious than our current treatments).

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Well, we've gotten a fairly good idea of what causes violent criminality in our day—past abuses, chronic stress, a sense of social derealization—and we have examples of highly pacifistic, almost violence-free societies in our own world. The problem currently is that the 'treatment' would consist of things like public health care, a living wage, wholesale abandonment of the suburban plan of city development, et cetera.

The Federation does use neurological scanners in the diagnosis of mental disorders, too, however.

Quote:

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Either way, I'm not sure how this bears out in practice, since we have at least three examples of serial killers (or other violent murderers) not only in the Federation, but in Starfleet*, which you would think would be pretty picky when it comes to psychological profiling.

*
Chu'lak, Field of Fire (DS9, Season 7)
Lon Suder, Meld (VOY, Season 2) - although Suder was actually never officially in Starfleet, having come to Voyager via the Maquis.
Walter Pierce, Eye of the Beholder (TNG, Season 7) - not a serial killer, but a murder/suicide perpetrator; pretty violent, IMO!

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The cause of a murder/suicide is significantly different from the triggering factors (or extreme developmental alienation) for a serial killer. Frankly, crimes of passion like that are unlikely to be eliminated entirely. Chu'lak is a weird case, in that the murders seem to have little to no sexual element. He may have been a spree killer, rather than a serial killer. Vulcans, however, are noted for the murderous rage boiling underneath their calm exteriors—their psychology might have more numerous triggers for this kind of violent acting-out.

*Moderating hat on*
A post in this thread has been reported as political, while a panel of moderators have decided that the coment in question is borderline at best, but was made in context and as a result will NOT be moderated, but just to clarify, please can we try to make sure that anything resembling a discussion of Law Enforcement remain bound in the fictional Star Trek unverse.

While my opening statement advised that this thread was likely to border political allegory, it should be in context of the Star Trek universe. Citing canon events, extrapolting from on-screen evidence is fine, but we need to refrain from comment of modern policing/politics (unless supported by canon evidence)).

OK, lets get back into discussion mode.

The Abrhams Trek (for all its divided opinion) does also give us another Trek Cop. In the early scenes when young Kirk is pulled over, we are clearly shown a Robotic cop, (setting aside the tech discrepancies of the period), what is the concencus here is this an Android or a humanoid remote control unit operated by a law officer in a central hub?

(the latter is a possible interpretation based on the reactions in TOS the few times they came across Androids, which implies that they are less common.)

In short are we talking an artifical/limited species or technology...

Production material seems to indicate that the mask was actually a post-production decision on the part of the director, instead of him being some robo...cop.

Was the cop meant to be robotic? Wow...I never got that :o. Honestly, it never occurred to me - I thought it was a guy wearing some armour and a helmet (presumably with optics/HUD, etc).

Oh bum. thats a can of worms.

Looking at the mask it doesn't look like a mask to me, too many flat surfaces in the recess. So it doesn't surprise me that this was post-production and added digitally.

This also explains the odd combo of mask AND visor on the helmet.

If we are talking a mask over a robot that certainly makes my job a lot easier and as I am only doing this for fun I guess I will be nmore than happy to take the Homer Simpson approach and go with the easier of the options, and add the helmet into the technology section.

What I don't understand is why they don't have automatic security probes doing this—or some sort of emergency force field for the rift.

Hell, we don't even know what the laws regarding allowing children access to dangerous equipment are. We don't see a whole lot of private automobile transport in [i]Trek[/] (non-transporter methods appear to be mostly trains, at least in Paris and SF). Driving an automobile is certainly an antiquated skill set (cf. APOTA). We never find out what the car runs on—is it a synthetic compound? Actual fossil fuels? The'd surely a rare antique substance at this point, unless the Klingons are exporting it from somewhere (Vulcan and Andoria don't seem like they'd have enough prehistoric swamps to make it!). Could Kirk's joyride have burned up a valuable find from the Smithsonian Institute of Ancient Technology? Or was the car converted to run on a modern power source—in which case, why didn't the cop just zap the engine with a phaser?

Although that's nothing compared to the real twist in that scene: the existence of the Beastie Boys in this timeline is probably the biggest metafictional loop in Trek yet.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Although that's nothing compared to the real twist in that scene: the existence of the Beastie Boys in this timeline is probably the biggest metafictional loop in Trek yet.

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I was more worried about the Nokia link... <>

OK. Nearly done. Will upload it to a new thread and pass it to Owen for his site once done.

Not much point asking for proof readers, I have a suspicion that the same people who are hanging out these parts and would be available would be the most likely readers of the finished product...