d20 Star Trek Anyone?

Well, now you can do it!

Wizards has released the d20 System Reference Document under the Open Gaming License. More info can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd

And here (for the OGL):

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/index.html

Oh, just be sure you get permission from Paramount first! Then again, don't use trademarked names and such (i.e. call 'em Spacefleet instead of that other word) and you'll be fine! * http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

Steve

*This does not constitute legal advice and is presented in a purely humorous manner.

Actually it's only the first eight sections of the SRD that are officially released. While a few of them are notable (The Basics, Ability Scores, Environment, Conditions Summary) and the rest irrelevant (I doubt we will need the Alignment section) to the Star Trek genre, we have yet to see the "meatier" portion of the SRD released. (skills, feats, combat rules, etc.)

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 04-19-2001).]

You are correct, Sir! Those sections would definitely need to be released before a thorough game could be designed. However, the sections posted are enough to get a design team's ship jumping into hyperspace...

Oh wait, wrong Intellectual Property. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

I wonder what the "Evil Wizards" naysayers are humming and hawwing about now? http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif

Steve

P.S. Not that I'm encouraging such a game to be designed based on a large and powerful company's IP. This is all hypothetical.

Just a FYI,

Apparently, Ryan Dancey has given gentleman's permission to use all of the races, classes, feats, skills, the entire combat system, magic system, magic item creation system, as well as every monster, spell and item of equipment used in D&D.

While this material isn't in the official SRD just yet, it's only a matter of time. What this essentially means is that it's OK to go ahead and work on an OGL game based on said material, just don't go and actually release it to the public (according to the terms expressed in the OGL) until the final--and official--SRD is released by Wizards.

Steve

P.S. Again, this is not considered legal advice. Please consult an attorney for such things. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Steven A Cook (edited 04-20-2001).]

Regarding the above statement taken from Ryan Dancey...

Is Mr. Dancey speaking as an employee of WotC or as a leading member of the Open Gaming Foundation? http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

While I don't doubt we can start right away in desiging a d20 Trek as a fan project in the R&D stage using the beta version of the SRD posted on the Open Gaming Foundation website. We just need to be aware of possible changes between the current beta version of the SRD and the upcoming finalized (and legally approved) version of the rest of the SRD on WotC's D20 website.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 04-19-2001).]

AFAIK, any version of the SRD is a legally usable one just like the OGL. Obviously, though, the most recent version(s) will have more material available for use by fans and professional game designers.

Remember, the SRD is "Open Gaming Material", so one is not required to use all of it. However, if you do use any of it, or modify anything therein (which is fine and allowable--with a few restrictions, such as "character creation" and "level advancement") and release it to the public, you must abide by the appropriate terms governing its use.

As for whether Mr. Dancey was speaking as a WotC Exec or as the founder of the OGF--it doesn't matter, as far as I can see. Please note that I did note specifically quote him, I was merely passing along public knowledge--or, at least public knowledge to those who subscribe to the various OGF mailing lists.

If anyone is seriously interested in the Open Gaming "movement," I strongly suggest you visit the OGF website and subscribe to one of the mailing lists. Open Gaming and d20 System releases require the use of very specific licenses, so gamers should not tread into these waters lightly without fully understanding what it means to have to abide by a license.

This isn't meant to scare gamers away from the Open Gaming "movement." In fact, the Open Gaming License and the d20 System Trademark License do provide a nice "safe harbor" for gamers to distribute and share their work with other gamers, or even to sell their works for royalty-free profit if they wish. But, like any licensing agreement, you have to fully understand the potential hazards if you breach a license.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Steven A Cook (edited 04-19-2001).]

Well, I'm just letting people be aware that not all of the sections of the System Reference Document have been officially released by WotC. The ones that posted on the Open Gaming Foundation website still contains sections that have not been reviewed and approved for released by WotC.

You will notice that when you go to the OGF's System Reference Document webpage there is the following text:

Quote:

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SOME OF THIS MATERIAL HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED USING THE OPEN GAMING LICENSE!

The material that has been licensed for public use is indicated by a "[ RELEASED ]" marker. The other sections are still in final review and have not yet be authorized for distribution or any other use at this time. As sections are approved for use with the Open Gaming License, this page will be updated.

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This post is not meant to scare anyone. Just making you aware of the SRD status at the moment. I don't want you guys to stop designing a d20 Trek. Just remember that you are working with a mixture of final release version and the beta version of the entire document.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 04-20-2001).]

Good points, REG. I was under the impression that revised versions of the SRD would be posted. That's what I get for not checking the website recently before I pipe up about it. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif Actually, it makes much more sense to do it piecemeal.

Steve

It is good sense, especially when you can decide how to outline your material chapter by chapter, heading by heading.

Now the big question: What route should we take into developing a d20 Trek?

OGL-only: While we cannot slap a "d20 System" logo (which is recognizable in the market including distributors and game retailers by now) nor can we even advertise or label our product that it uses d20 system nor advertise or label our product that it is compatible with d20 system, this would actually give us more freedom to make a stand-alone RPG. We can set up our own character creation rule and describe what happen when a character advances in experience. In fact, OGL allows us to copy, modify, and distribute OGC, that includes not using any of them. Thus we can eliminate the class/level mechanics (including the level-based benefits). What is important here is to keep the task resolution mechanics the same: d20 + modifiers.

D20STL: You've seen most of them out there already, including Chaosium's Dragonlords of Melnibone. What they're actually doing is take advantage of the trademarked "d20 system" logo and to expand a network of compatible game products. Of course, the word "compatibility" may be synonymous with "restriction," as your product must abide by the terms set by WotC (you cannot write the character creation rule nor the level advancement rule in your product). The reward however may be profitable -- your product can attract the long-running, well-established d20 consumer base, which includes D&D gamers.

At the risk of being flamed, I noticed one thing about the posters here on the board: most of you do not like d20 system nor believe that d20 system is unsuitable for Trek. Most of you point out the unsuitability of the class/level mechanics.

Taken that into account, IMHO Trek d20 should be an OGL-only product (or Trek OGL). It should utilize the SRD and modify it to make it suitable for this game. We can even eliminate the class/level mechanics as well as the Hit Point mechanics and put something similar to the concept of LUGTrek's.

I know we cannot slap a d20 system logo on it, but really who cares? If this RPG is going to be distributed on the net, and it can attract unsuspecting anti-D&D gamers to it, then that's great.

Of course, we have one more obstacle (probably two) to clear, and it's nowhere related to the Open Gaming issue. The Star Trek trademark, which is owned by Paramount. And it is possible that Decipher would look into this with some concern, too.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

Well, Wizards still own the Icon System during the acquisition. Just because they don't use it in any marketable form, does not mean they have abandoned ownership of that property.

If you don't want any legal trouble, ask for their permission. Common courtesy. Just don't obliged them to say "yes" because you ask nicely. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

Well, I suppose a company could license the trademarks and ICON system from them. Kenzer Co. is, in fact, doing just this with their D&D line.

I doubt they would even pay attention to a single individual fan asking for a license to use the ICON system. They certainly wouldn't say whether it was legal for me to do my own game without a license.

But, as I said before, I'm just exploring possibilities. I, and others, have done a lot of work on Fantasy ICON, and I want to get it out to the fans in some format eventually.

Back to d20 Trek. Does anyone else besides REG and I have an interest in such a thing? I'd like to hear what others have to say about such an undertaking!

Steve

I absolutely agree that releasing an OGLed Space Trek game is the way to go, taking whatever elements of the d20 SRD (which is Open Game material and thus freely distributable in accordance with the OGL) the designers find cool (the d20 task resolution system, feats and combat system, for example) while eliminating such elements that are objectionable to some (such as levels, for example).

As you point out REG, the only restriction would be that the designers couldn't use the d20 System trademark on the product--which has stipulations for not including design info on "ability generation" and "experience/level advancement".

The other legal roadblocks are Paramount and Decipher. However, if the designers simply called the game (as I noted above) Space Trek, then there's nothing either company could do to stop them. Obviously, other "Star Trek" Intellectual Property and Trademarks couldn't be used either--"Deep Space Nine", "Voyager", "Star Trek: The Next Generation", etc.

A shadier area might creep up over the use of such terms as "Tricorder", "Phaser", "Enterprise", "Romulans", "Klingons", and such. I'm not enough of a legal expert to make a call on those terms and their usage in a non-Paramount licensed RPG.

Steve

One other point of interest:

I've been pondering the idea of releasing the Fantasy ICON project under the OGL. I've yet to discuss it with the other contributors, but it's something I've thought about.

Obviously, there are some big legal considerations in doing so, since Wizards owns the ICON trademark, AFAIK. However, it is, in effect, a dead system with no support from anyone other than the fans.
Would Wizards come after me if I used the term ICON? Maybe, who knows? And it's not like I could just call 'em up and ask. I could just use another term to avoid that problem. The really big issue is my designation of the game system mechanics as Open Content. I don't own any of it, so is it possible for a third party to designate material as such? My gut says no for obvious reasons, and I have no intention of "stealing" anything from its rightful owners. But it's common knowledge that you can't copyright a game system's mechanics, so I suppose with careful wording such a project is theoretically possible. However, this is treading into sketchy legal waters and I have insufficient legal background to guide me, and I have no wish to raise the ire of a big game company. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif

The only reason I would do such a thing is to please the ICON system fans. I wouldn't do it for profit of any kind. Hmm... I'd really have to consult an attorney before undertaking this project. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

Steve

I would definitely be interested in a d20 Star Trek rpg. While I do look forward to Decipher's version of the game, I would much rather have rules for a d20 based version; this cuts down on the amount of rules my players and I must learn.

Whether I have any great ideas to contribute to the project or the time to do so, is another matter entirely. However, summer is approaching and I will soon have much of the latter. At any rate, I will keep an interested eye on this project.



[This message has been edited by Delta (edited 04-22-2001).]

Has anyone worked up a conversion from LUGTrek skills to d20 skills and feats?

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~~~randy~~>

I have yet to determine the d20 System's equivalents of the LUGTrek skills. Some of those skills should be converted to feats instead, IMHO.

I am currently using D&D3e and Star Wars d20 as reference. I would like to see how the upcoming Traveller d20 (or T20) rules deal with prior service background.

Off the top of my head, one LUGTrek skill level should be approximately equal to two d20 skill ranks.

I'm also toying with a radical concept based upon the prestige class rule mechanics called promotion class (tentatively titled). It's a set of one-level "prestige classes" that determines your standing rank. Just like a prestige class, you need to meet the requirements. And high-ranking promotion class would definitely require low-ranking promotion class (e.g. a Lieutenant promotion class requires the Lieutenant Junior Grade and Ensign promotion classes). Don't worry, there will be a promotion class rule mechanics for enlisted personnel, too.

(I'm also toying with the concept of Officer-level benefit based on the Epic-level rules mechanics for comparison of two different approach to promotion ... and see which one is better.)

Like I said, it's a radical concept that character do not need to spend a feat for it (I know a lot of you are thinking of using promotion as a feat).

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 07-21-2001).]

And so many people were worried about a Star Trek using the D20 system, the whole 5th level Captain thing seemed to turn people off. Since I never really looked at it that way I'm glad some people are giveing it a try. In theory I thought it would work, I'll have to keep an eye out here to ses if it works in practice.

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In the Praetors Name!

I guess my main question is: Do we
1) Develop a d20 system using ideas & concepts from LUGTrek?
=OR=
2) Develop a means to convert a LUGTrek character over to a d20 system?

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~~~randy~~>

I'd opt for choice #1.

We can work on the conversion rule later. We have yet to established a set of d20-based rules for a Star Trek RPG.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

Quote:

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Originally posted by REG:

I'm also toying with a radical concept based upon the prestige class rule mechanics called promotion class (tentatively titled). It's a set of one-level "prestige classes" that determines your standing rank. Just like a prestige class, you need to meet the requirements. And high-ranking promotion class would definitely require low-ranking promotion class (e.g. a Lieutenant promotion class requires the Lieutenant Junior Grade and Ensign promotion classes). Don't worry, there will be a promotion class rule mechanics for enlisted personnel, too.

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I like this idea a lot. It is interesting to have a multi-level prestige class. I often figured once I took a prestige class I wouldn't be taking another prestige class. I don't think there is anything preventing it.


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~~~randy~~>