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I am wondering what type of Villains are missing from the TV shows and movies. You have your cold war Russians with the Klingons. The Romulans are your espionage villains. The borg are the "Zombies" of Star Trek, the unsurmountable foe that we are afraid will take us over and turn us into a drone. The Ferengi represent Capitalism at its worst.
I am trying to find a villain type that is represented in other popular culture but doesn't have a face in Star Trek. Any ideas?
I always liked anti hero's, which aren't really represented in Star Trek. They liked the division of good and evil clearly defined. As far as already defined enemy's the Hirogen were always very interesting, and with them roaming all over the galaxy incursions into the Alpha or Beta quadrants isn't unprecedented.
BTW you don't really have to worry about the Borg after 2381, as the collective is dismantled by the Caeliar
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_Invasion_of_2381
Thank you for the link. I was not aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveMan
The Maquis could be considered an anti-hero, or maybe anti-villain.
I wonder if anarchists have been represented much in Star Trek.
true, though you could also classify the Marquis as freedom fighters, along the lines of the Bajorian Resistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by C5
Yes, but this is a group that already exists in Star Trek.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveMan
I am wondering if there is a type of villain not represented in Star Trek that would be a nice addition.
Man, I didn't think anyone could do anything stupider with the Borg than "Endgame," but there it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveMan
Organians.Quote:
Originally Posted by C5
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
I am one of the ones who didn't like the introduction of the Borg Queen. I thought they served as a much better antagonist when they were a true hive mind.
what is it you don't like about it? Most of the plot lines for the Borg were explored, and you couldn't destroy them with overwhelming force (the Undine/species 8472 covered that plot) and if you don't address them eventually they would take over (most plots show them talking over then galaxy by the 2600's).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
I agree "Endgame" was rife with mistakes (Voyager would never survive inside a Sphere, Temporal Agents would not allow Janeway to corrupt the time line just to name a few) and seemed rushed to wrap the series up.
Well, I still think that they are a hive mind, and that the Queen is a mask worn by the hive in specific dealings, much like Locutus:
OTOH, I also think that the impression of the Borg as a Leviathan-like unity is also a kind of false assumption, and that the Borg-as-organism and Borg-as-adaption-ecosystem need more focus to actually get interesting stories out of them. You see the Borg's usefulness as an actual active opposition in episodes run out very quickly in TNG, and it's only when they start being treated as another culture—scary, yes, but one with a being and worth like any other—that you get good material like 'I, Borg,' 'Unity' and 'Survival Instinct'Quote:
Your archaic cultures are authority driven. To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a human voice will speak for us in all communications. You have been chosen to be that voice.
("Best of Both Worlds, Part One"
Well, yeah, I'd just have them take over. Or join the Federation. Or the Federation joins them. Same thing, really. I mean, it would really depend on whether I'm running a game set in the 25th-27th centuries or running a game in the 29th-31st.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveMan
I viewed the Borg Queen in the same way, the manifestation of the collective and acting in the same fashion as a AI Processor, as in a interface for the collective to interact with hierarchical based species who would assume that there "has to be someone in charge".
I honestly don't believe the Federation and the Borg could have ever become ally's, once assimilated a culture becomes Borg. Plus the Borg always exhibited "assimilate or destroy" behavior, not a lot of wriggle room for diplomacy. For me the scenario developed in that link had symmetry and closure, rounding out the plot line nicely. (I liked that an aspect of the Caeliar being the origins of the Borg, and that they offered a different take on a collective, the Gestalt. A collective consciousnesses that retained individually. Overall the Caeliar were very interesting, a race of beings made up entirely of catoms, exceedingly advanced technology and dedicating their time to their "great work" .
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Caeliar
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Work
I don't understand why a queen is inconsistent with a hive... All the hives we have on Earth (ants, bees, termites, wasps) have a queen, and that's where the whole patterm of a hive came from. The Borg just combine the drones and workers, is all. As noted above, the queen is just a programme run by the Borg, a sort of queen.exe with a specialised hardware body. Seen in that light, even the creation of a Locutus makes sense.
A hive mind is different than a literal ant hive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton
If she was the true collective thought of the Borg, then I would be okay with her. But her dialog in First Contact made her appear to be more in control of the drones as an ant queen would be.
You fleshlings are so limited in your perceptions. That is why you will be assimilated by the superior beings.
The closest thing that comes to a real hive-mind is a computer network. A network needs a coordinating processor. That's her. All the other drones are mere peripherals. She's sort of like a "Norman" that actually does coordinate.
But what does "become Borg" mean, once you're on the inside?Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveMan
Of course, it's not necessarily the Queen per se which is coordinating, so much as complex set of interrelated adaptions of which the Queen is manifesting in that particular submatrix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton
Anyway, if we want to actually hash out the various ways that Borg cybernetics (in the original meaning) works we should start a different thread.
exactly that, assimilated cultures cease to exist, all those assimilated cultures are merged into the collective.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
For example Annika Hansen was a human individual, once assimilated she became Borg drone Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero-One. Her human lifestyle ceased upon assimilation, and she then became a drone. Your former life is over. Human drones don't exhibit human culture, rather they exhibit Borg culture.
True, while an interesting topic, I am looking for types of interesting villains that Star Trek doesn't currently have int he TV shows or Movies.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Since Star Trek does a lot of social commentary, is there a type of antagonist that has risen in society recently that could be represented in Star Trek?
Yeah, but then you gain the perspective of the Borg toward your previous material prostheses. I'm really surprised that this board's self-proclaimed transhumanist is the one making the 'Borg are evil' argument instead of the 'Borg are just another form of life' argument...Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveMan
I think honestly answering that question would be a violation of the board's 'no political talk' rule, heh.Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnEverythingG
Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
LoL, I never said the Borg were evil nor was my intention to imply such. What puts me off about the Borg is the loss of self and loss of individuality. That's why I like the Caeliar so much, they reflect transhumanism (well to be pedantic transCaeliarism...LoL) far better, have a "group consciousness" and yet retain individuality and the concept of self. I agree the Borg are just another life form. What I feel though from your posts is you mistakenly believe that if, say the Federation were to be assimilated that the Federation would still exist in some form, though with a Borg perspective. IMHO this would not be the case. They would be Borg, not Federation-Borg.(what I mean by that is, for example when a Greek person immigrates to Australia they are often referred to as Greek Australian.) The Borg culture would supersede all others, and not allow assimilated cultures to present in their original form.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Another underdeveloped race, for me, would be the Undine (species 8472), though there has been a lot of novels written concerning them. Now they represent the ultimate "trans" species, the paragon of evolution and genetic perfection.