Klingon Raptor question

Thinking about writing an early era Klingon campaign for the FASA RPG, I am looking for a suitable, simple, medium size player crew vessel.

I am loving the look of the Klingon Raptor from "Sleeping Dogs", but a little confused by it's stated crew of 12. At 145 meters long and four decks, and given the Klingon lack of luxuries, I would have expected space to squeeze in about 5-10 Officers and maybe 35-40 crew?

Also since the bridge has about 7 stations, and the need for "Reactor Pit" crew too, 12 crew doesn't seem anywhere near enough. Especially if you want some Marines to raid the servitors you encounter!

I haven't yet tried to work out deckplans to see how my theory holds up, but all opinions welcomed

Klingon ships vary widely in both crew and amenities. If you think it should have more Warriors (not Marines! Marines are a Human concept and FASA should have made it clear that it was merely a translation, and a bad one at that), go ahead and add them. Remember also that Klingon ships of the era kept live Targs on board, and their pens would have taken up some of the space. For stats, you could just adapt those of some of the smaller FASA Battlecruisers.

Yeah, the Targs comment makes sense, since as well as the Targs you would also need their fodder etc. And since being a John M Ford Klingon's fan, I don't go down that particular path, I guess that leaving all that out would enable a few more crew to be crammed in.

For a small ship of that era, I would expect anything other than basic rations -nutritious, filling, but not tasty - to be seen as a waste of vital space.

Except maybe for the captain?

Klingon marines were again a JMF invention, which FASA adopted. However, I don't have a problem with the term, anymore than the Klingon ship commanding officer, is, in English, given the title captain.

As for the English term "Marines", then specially trained fighting men that deploy from a vessel to attack planetside or for boarding actions.

What else would you call them?

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Originally Posted by C57D

As for the English term "Marines", then specially trained fighting men that deploy from a vessel to attack planetside or for boarding actions.

What else would you call them?

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I believe Klingons would call them Warriors.

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Originally Posted by BurnEverythingG

I believe Klingons would call them Warriors.

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Warriors, Marines, Soldiers, Fighters.

Take your pick, because all are English words and Klingons would have their own word/s for each.

Surely a fighting race like the Klingons would assume that every member of the ship crew are fighters, warriors whatever. But would, surely also have specially trained crew members with greater combat training and skills. I can't believe that a (for example) trained communications officer is as well trained a fighter, as a specialist soldier, marine.... Whatever!

The crew compliment for these things probably has a lot to do with the mission—if you're doing a bombing run over a subjugated planet, do you need a science officer? Is there a dedicated medical officer? If these are Ford klingons, do the officers have servants? If so, maybe the compliment excludes slave labour.

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Originally Posted by C57D

Warriors, Marines, Soldiers, Fighters.

Take your pick, because all are English words and Klingons would have their own word/s for each.

Surely a fighting race like the Klingons would assume that every member of the ship crew are fighters, warriors whatever. But would, surely also have specially trained crew members with greater combat training and skills. I can't believe that a (for example) trained communications officer is as well trained a fighter, as a specialist soldier, marine.... Whatever!

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That is why you humans fail. Every Klingon Warrior is a highly trained fighter.

the only reference I can find about elite Klingon troops is in the link, I can't remember any reference to Klingon soldiers other then 'warriors' and 'shock troops'. Remember the Klingon people are a caste/class based society, warriors (or the warrior caste/class) occupies the most prestigious and highest 'rank' in the system and every Klingon aboard their military vessels are first and foremost a warrior.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wik...n_shock_troops

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Originally Posted by WaveMan

the only reference I can find about elite Klingon troops is in the link, I can't remember any reference to Klingon soldiers other then 'warriors' and 'shock troops'. Remember the Klingon people are a caste/class based society, warriors (or the warrior caste/class) occupies the most prestigious and highest 'rank' in the system and every Klingon aboard their military vessels are first and foremost a warrior.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wik...n_shock_troops

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Yeah, I understand that works for TNG+ incarnation Klingons, but as I stated in the original post, I am using the John M Ford/FASA version.

I find the canon Klingons too mono cultural/Planet of Hats for my personal taste, while JMF's actually have a society which has engineers and doctors and scientists ( and, god, even tacticians and strategists ), as well as starship crew (and specifically trained Marines). Every Klingon can fight, even (or especially) mothers for their offspring, but some are specifically trained in it.

It stands to reason. Let's imagine that (for example) Klingon Star Academy is 5 years long. All canon Klingons are warriors so that 5 years is split between ( for example) engineering skills and combat skills. JMF Klingons have specialist engineers and specialist marines, each with 5 years training.

Which side is going to have the longest,and so, presumably greater, training in combat skills?

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Originally Posted by BurnEverythingG

That is why you humans fail. Every Klingon Warrior is a highly trained fighter.

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Yes they are all trained fighters. Just some are specialists who are more coherently trained to board enemy ships, stations and installations.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

The crew compliment for these things probably has a lot to do with the mission—if you're doing a bombing run over a subjugated planet, do you need a science officer? Is there a dedicated medical officer? If these are Ford klingons, do the officers have servants? If so, maybe the compliment excludes slave labour.

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That us very true, and the ship doesn't look like an explorer, more a strike ship/raider, making a scientist immaterial. And for so few crew a cross trained medical orderly would suffice.

Maybe a couple of Kuve to raise up the numbers sounds good too!

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Originally Posted by C57D

Yeah, I understand that works for TNG+ incarnation Klingons, but as I stated in the original post, I am using the John M Ford/FASA version.

I find the canon Klingons too mono cultural/Planet of Hats for my personal taste, while JMF's actually have a society which has engineers and doctors and scientists ( and, god, even tacticians and strategists ), as well as starship crew (and specifically trained Marines). Every Klingon can fight, even (or especially) mothers for their offspring, but some are specifically trained in it.

It stands to reason. Let's imagine that (for example) Klingon Star Academy is 5 years long. All canon Klingons are warriors so that 5 years is split between ( for example) engineering skills and combat skills. JMF Klingons have specialist engineers and specialist marines, each with 5 years training.

Which side is going to have the longest,and so, presumably greater, training in combat skills?

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you are missing an important point, the caste system I mentioned DOES include other castes other then the Warrior caste. Episodes (TNG and DS-9 from memory) showed a lawyer, others episodes showed other professions. All the top jobs are filled by the warrior caste, the rest left to lower caste, with those Klingon's that proved during their upbringing that they were unsuitable for the Warrior caste. That being said thought, yes I agree, Klingon's would have elite, specialized troops dedicated to boarding actions, ground combat etc (which gel's well with the 'shock troop' appellation).

I would also cite Worf as an example of well rounded character, that is excellent at his job (at first Security, and later Strategic operations), and still maintains mastery over all forms of personal combat. It is not unreasonable to expect all members of a Klingon combat vessel to be well trained in Ship Board skills, while maintaining high levels of excellence in personal combat.

Remember there are only a handful of skills that you have to maintain to excel at combat (Dodge, Tactics, hand to hand combat, a couple of melee weapons [for a Klingon that's the Bat'leth, Mek'leth and D'K'tagh], throwing (for grenades) and disrptor pistol and rifle, and I suppose you could and a couple of stealth skills and some version of search or spot)

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Originally Posted by WaveMan

you are missing an important point, the caste system I mentioned DOES include other castes other then the Warrior caste. Episodes (TNG and DS-9 from memory) showed a lawyer, others episodes showed other professions. All the top jobs are filled by the warrior caste, the rest left to lower caste, with those Klingon's that proved during their upbringing that they were unsuitable for the Warrior caste. That being said thought, yes I agree, Klingon's would have elite, specialized troops dedicated to boarding actions, ground combat etc (which gel's well with the 'shock troop' appellation).

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Which whether you call them Shock troops, Comandos or Marines etc, makes no real difference. These are English words, and would (in-universe) be used as the nearest approximation to whatever the Klingon term is?

My only argument is that we seem to want to be tied into the (English) word Warriors, and to denegrate the (also English) word Marines. If anything Warriors is a more generic term which can be applied to ALL Klingons, whilst Marines are specifically troops embarked from a ship to conduct boarding parties, landslide attacks and raids etc!

Well, they'd be asterines or cosmorines, not marines.

In canon, Klingons do not draw such a distinction. Everyone not specifically involved in running the ship at that time forms boarding parties. Warrior is the translation of the Klingon word SuvwI' "one who fights". The only closer translation would be fighter, which would lead to confusion with other English terms meaning the same thing, such as small armed attack craft. Warrior has no other meaning as a vocabulary word. Marine is actually the word in many European languages for navy. The Royal Marines, from which the US Marines copied their name and function, are merely naval infantry, and indeed are called so by most other nations. Culturally, Americans are in love with Marines, but the name should only be applied to water-borne troops, the "mar" part being derived from the Latin "marum" or "sea". The other Klingon word for "warrior" is vaj. When Klingons speak English, they translate vaj and SuvwI' as warrior.

The use of the word marine in FASA writings is simply anachronistic US jingoism, and in Star Fleet Battles, even more so.

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

In canon, Klingons do not draw such a distinction. Everyone not specifically involved in running the ship at that time forms boarding parties. Warrior is the translation of the Klingon word SuvwI' "one who fights". The only closer translation would be fighter, which would lead to confusion with other English terms meaning the same thing, such as small armed attack craft. Warrior has no other meaning as a vocabulary word. Marine is actually the word in many European languages for navy. The Royal Marines, from which the US Marines copied their name and function, are merely naval infantry, and indeed are called so by most other nations. Culturally, Americans are in love with Marines, but the name should only be applied to water-borne troops, the "mar" part being derived from the Latin "marum" or "sea". The other Klingon word for "warrior" is vaj. When Klingons speak English, they translate vaj and SuvwI' as warrior.

The use of the word marine in FASA writings is simply anachronistic US jingoism, and in Star Fleet Battles, even more so.

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Holy $hit !!

You really do have a burr up your a$$ about this!

Before TNG there were no real "canon Klingons" and JMF's and FASA's are still beloved by many.

I didn't need the Latin or history lessons. And was just trying to make the point that what modern day ( and historical) Marine troops do is pretty similar to what the (obviously despised by some) FASA marines do.

And that I would be surprised that Klingon society would not specifically train elite forces to fight and ONLY fight.

Live and let live -except, obviously not here.

Time to leave I think?

Search for 'marine' threads from 2000 or thereabouts. IIRC the topic was banned at some point...

I was wondering about the "marine thread' reference, as it was referred to in another thread and I ask the question why 'marine talk' was not allowed, makes sense now as it seems to be a controversial topic on this board.

As far as the Federation goes, they too don't use the term 'marine' AFAIK, they have Starfleet Rangers (primarily planetary operations unit), Rapid Response Team (primarily ship board operations) , MACO (Military/Assault/Command/Operations, as seen on NX-Enterprise) and the Andorian Trachka (specialized Andorian multi-mission soldier), all are 'specialized' military units capable of fulfilling a professional soldiers role.