The last thread is now to large and unwieldly.
So start fresh here.
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Thats Cpt SIR SIG to you!
More then meets the eye,
His a MapMaker in disguise.
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The last thread is now to large and unwieldly.
So start fresh here.
------------------
Thats Cpt SIR SIG to you!
More then meets the eye,
His a MapMaker in disguise.
This message has been removed on request by the
poster
[IF]
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
--Rudyard Kipling
What worries me about this is one of your ex-State Department guys on Brit TV last night saying "We need to go round each country and ask if they are on our side against terrorism or against us". Us and Them mentality? I agree the scum (I was about to use the word "people", but they don't deserve the title) who did this should pay - with their lives. I've always disagreed with America's stance on the death penalty, as for one it doesn't work as a deterrent, and as another all it does is leave the perp's family feeling as bereaved as your own. In this case, there is no other option. There are some acts so repugnant and irredeemable that those who commit them must die. However, I would not support the mass bombing of a nation to get at these people. Yes, there are factions in Afghanistan who think Bin Laden is a hero, and who hide him. There are also many who have probably no idea who he is. When you find out who did this, do you kill as many innocents to get them as they did hitting the WTC? Then you are just as guilty, and I for one will not support you. I will offer my support in surgical strikes to remove these people and their backers. I will support efforts to change the political climate so they are forced out (and I mean sensible efforts, not ramming a gun down Palestine's throat and telling them it's your way or else).
So, if the US takes an action I find morally wrong - am I against you? Am I the enemy? Someone on the last thread said that the US was willing to count anyone who got in the way of their revenge against Japan after Pearl Harbour as the enemy. I know you're hurting badly, but I won't condone wholesale slaughter of innocents to get at the perpetrators. That makes me no better than them. Let's do this as cold, calculating vengeance - and show the terrorists we can make them pay without sinking to their level. If there's one thing the conflict in Ireland has taught Brits, it's that indiscriminate vengeance just feeds the cycle of hatred. Once you get to that place, you may never get out (just look at the problems Ireland is still having today, even after peace accords were signed).
Sorry, this post rambled a tad. I hope my words haven't offended anyone from the States, because I know feelings are running high there right now. However, I hope after taking a deep breath you can see the logic in what I've said.
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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
BTW, I've been reading these posts carefully and noticed Steve Long hasn't shown up here - Steve, could you please let us know if you're OK? Having testread a few of the SRMs I find you one of the most sensible and intelligent people I've ever (virtually) met - please tell us you're alright?
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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
This is just sick.
As a nurse, I absolutely dread to think about what victims have been through, and what the emergency services had to contend with.
I just can't believe this has happened. But enough is enough. Something needs to be done to stop all these damn terrorists. I just wish I knew what it was.
I hope no one here has suffered directly through this disaster, and you guys are all alright.
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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid
Hunter, you have elegantly summed up how I believe we should retaliate. There are too many people here that feel the Middle East should become a parking lot, or the world’s biggest sand trap, but small singular targets would bring us back from the chaos most are feeling. On a more personal note, the punishment of the individuals responsible should not be a quick thing, let them live long lives, dead men learn nothing.
Phoenix...
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The more you disapprove,
The more fun it is for me.
[We will make no distinction between those who committed this act and those nations who harbor them.]
Surgical strikes, please, wake up we have tried that and found we either hit the wrong target, miss altogether or do little damage. In general the people want this threat delt with in a manner which is final and not temporary. Do you think the US governments wants to just lob a couple cruise missiles or laser guided bombs and say we have our retribution? The enemy is Terrorism and those nations who have continued over thirty years to support it, Syria, Libya, Iraqi Afganistan, and even though they have subsided there efforts in recent years Iran. not only have these nation supported Arab Terrorism but groups as diverse as Shining Path and the Red Army Faction they have showed a calous disregard for the world and its law they have protected, equiped and trained madmen who have killed thousands in small attacks and have planned larger attacks which we will never know of because they lost their nerve. I don't care what group did this, the situation was created by the fact we have allowed Terrorism to continue and as long as we do this will repeat and repeat until there is no end in sight.
This is war, and in war the innocent die becuase of the decision of there government. There were plenty of good peace loving Germans, Italians and Japanese in WWII who suffered because of the decisions of their governments, but governments as Dan said so well are from their people, no matter what they stay in power because as a whole the people either do nothing or choose to support it.
As shown by the government of Iraqi they have and continue to have no respect for life. These are not nations of civilized laws and civilized manners they are tyrants and bands of brigands and they have remained in power because in same way their people have choose to support them and allow them to continue. There is no government on Earth that exist without the consent of its people be it democratic or tolitarian. These governments have supported terrorism and have put their people at risk for attack therefore I lose little sleep at the prospect of their casualties.
We have offered friendship and have been stabbed in the back by these people, We have been told we should understand there position while they refuse to understand ours, they killed because of the simple fact we support a nation or concept that is totaly alien to them. It is them and not us who have showed intolerance, and hatred and have never truely understood the teaching which they falsely profess to understand and in the end they have choosen by there acts and attitude to be my enemy and not I.
There fore let them truely reap the whirlwind and no just ceacuse you disagree with me does not make you mt enemy, a civilized human being will pick up the pen or tap on the keyboard to show his difference and not resot to the gun, bomb and sword. They have for over thrity year done so we have tryed to combat with both the pen and the sword but now it is time to drop the pen and arm the other hand with the sword.
Like in law situation if you give aid, comfort or harbor a criminal you become part of the crime, that is a tenant of western law. If these nations do so, why is it so hard to accept that they by the actions of either nothing or openness, support these actions and therfore they become guilty as while. Islm and Mohammed gave so much to the world, beauty in art and architure, verse, and another true word of the one, but yet why do those who profess to be its "true" prophets bring death, destruction and hatred to the world, what legacy, what image is this to give the world of a great religion, culture and people.
If you really want to discourage a country from harboring these terrorists we have to make it not worth it. We know where some terrorists are already, let's start with them. Let's get them all. We have people who have the tools and the talent to bring their lives to an abrupt and violent end. If they want to be martyrs... let them. We'll personally send them on their way to see Allah. You can't do this with high tech missiles. This will require men to go into harm's way to do this with any certainty.
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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"
Like Christianity, there are many denominations of Islam. The Taliban of Afghanistan practices the most extreme form of Islamic movement. But I rather leave religion aside.
This is a political matter as well as criminal. So far we have not called a declaration of war against any country yet, not until we have the concrete evidence that they are responsible. Forgive me for being Vulcan, but considering that this is a well-coordinated tactical assault against capitalism and our seat of government, the multimillionaire Osama Bin Laden may have higher help.
But with all due respect, we may have been at fault as well. How they managed to get past airport security, particularly the airport in Boston, is also something that stuck behind my mind. (Next to "Whodunit? Bin Laden? Gotta Be.")
What is also sickening is the fact those suicide terrorists are trained pilots rumored to have had initial training in a flight school in Indiana(?) or some other parts in the US.
I'm still praying for survivors, especially those who managed to call via cell phone. I hope the rescuers get to them in time.
If there are two good things that come out of this it would be: (1) that NY and America will overcome this disastrous, horrendous attack, and (2) what is deemed as a heroic sacrificial act by the passengers of the airline that crashed at Pittsburgh to stop the terrorists from using their plane as a weapon targeted for the White House. Two planes were to hit the White House, one fell short and hit a part of the Pentagon instead ... at least according to the news.
A few topics to cover here.
First, I generally recognize the need to preserve basic human rights. That said, I do have this urge to kill anyone who I think was involved in this, and maybe anyone who looks like them. So, moderating insane rage with intellect I get .....
Whoever did this must be convinced that this was NOT a GOOD plan. They must be made to never want to do anything remotely like this again. And they must be made an example to deter others who might do something like this in the future.
My first thought was the Palestinians did this, but I have no basis, just a hunch. I realized right away that most folks said it must have been the arabs when the federal building in Oklahoma City was bombed. So, we should hold off.
of course, since then I've heard that the governmebt has evidence linking Osama bin Laden's followers to this.
AFAIK, bin Laden himself has not denied this. The Taliban government of Afganistan has said that he could not have done this.
And to Angry Cartman, I have read "By Way Of Deception". I agree that, in theory, the Mossad might have done this to turn us against the Palestineans. HOWEVER, they are also smart enough to know that we would bomb Israel into the stone age if we ever found out. THEREFORE, I doubt that they would ever risk it. They are not evil, stupid, or suicidal; they simply always put what is (in their opinion) best for Israel first. And even Ostroffsky admits that the Mossad does not consider pissing off the US to be in the best interests of Israel.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
As many of the congressmen and women have said today during session, America is calling for the punishment of those that carried out/supported this horrible act but a rush to judgement isn't going to happen. It could take months for any military action in this war to come to pass. My non-American friends, thinking that us yanks are going to carpet-bomb civilians is the wrong assumption. Thinking that America is blind with rage and will strike without regard at the innocent is the wrong assumption. Regardless of the reputation we seem to carry, we are indeed a thoughtful people who cherish life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. I was glad to see the sheer number of statements from the nations of the world decrying this terror, offering assistance and making a pledge to stand up as one against those that use terror as a political tool. This, in our darkest hour, is also a fine hour for humanity as a whole. I'm proud of my people, meaning the citizens of the US and the citizens of the world. There is hope for humanity yet.
I peruse other message boards, similar to our own, and I see people who know each other advocating different stances. Some non-aggression, some measured responses, some assassination or military action, others outright genocide against persons of a specific ethnic and religious persuasion.
What is quickly happening in these ‘discussions’ are people who know each other now locked in a verbal debate of morals, responsibility, and vengeance.
Friends turned against friends. Harsh words spoken. Lines being drawn and sides taken.
Whose cause do you think this serves?
After this is all said and done (never forgotten), months or years from now, these comments will also linger and have a lasting effect. One of the great weapons of terrorism is turning people against people, eliciting a feeling of vulnerability and anger, all the while hiding in the shadows.
Forgive me for painting a picture of a worst case scenario that thankfully has not happened yet on TrekRPGNet. However, as I said, I’m seeing it on other discussion boards all over and I would continue to caution our members to discuss and post in a responsible manner.
In preserving everyone’s ability to use these boards we are also vulnerable to individuals registering and posting with anonymity—making their comments and hiding behind a pseudonym. Please temper your own comments accordingly.
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http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/sig_don.gif
On the Day After, I am just as horrified as I was on the Day. I am outraged that people would do this thing, though I am not all that surprised. Unlike many, I have no illusion of security. I know that no country is immune from history.
Bin Ladin and company are terrorists. We should not be surprised when they act like terrorists. We need to find them and eliminate them, not only for vengeance, but because they will merely keep on killing until they are eliminated.
However, when I looked at the internet boards last night, about every fourth American poster said something like: "Sand Niggers suck; they are an inferior race; we will build camps; we will kill them all; I will kill one tonight". Forgive the racial epithet, but I must have read it a hundred times.
We don't need that kind of stupidity. It is unworthy of us, and an insult to all those who died to rid the world of Nazi and Japanese concentration camps in World War II, and Soviet gulags in the Cold War.
Right now what we need is the cold ferocity to get those responsible, and, yes, those who harbor them. We need the vision and leadership to build a world in which this sort of thing will be impossible, but in which all peoples' rights are protected.
In the end we are either the heirs of Washington and Lincoln, or we are just the Roman mob, howling for blood. The whole world needs us to be the former and not the latter.
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Slan agat!
[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 09-12-2001).]
Sorry to have given the impression that I think all Americans are warmongers. I know a great many of you are intelligent, humane people. I'm just a little worried that, if this turns into a war, America will go the distance - if you want to eliminate the possibility of a nation producing terrorists, you may well have to wipe them out totally or the survivors will hate you so much the problem never goes away. That's a cold truth, I just hope we can see it and realize that a full-scale offensive against these nations is not a solution unless we want genocide on our conscience. I'm sure the retaliation that comes will be more sensible.
Whew! Seems impossible to post here and not get caught up in this. I only logged on to reply to my previous post and say that yes - the almighty Steve Long is OK (he's rather sensibly keeping out of this whole discussion until it calms down).
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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
Eric, you can't be serious!Quote:
There is no government on Earth that exist without the consent of its people be it democratic or tolitarian.
(from www.dictionary.com)
What I'm just trying to say is that this is exactly what a totalitarian government is all about: ruling without the consent of its people. And I bet that if I (or you, for that matter) had the misfortune to be living under such a regime, I would just keep my mouth shut and be happy if I could make it to the end of the day ... or maybe I would already have been shot, which is not very comforting either ... in any case, the regime would still be in place, even if I didn't want it to.Quote:
to·tal·i·tar·i·an
adj.
Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
[This message has been edited by Calcoran (edited 09-12-2001).]
Hey guys, my boss's husband is one of those listed as missing from the Pentagon. Keep them in y'all's porayers, will you?
However Don I think you should point out so far, we have been discussing this in a tone and manner less heated than even that of the famous Marine and Money debates and that is everyones credit http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif.Quote:
Originally posted by Don:
Forgive me for painting a picture of a worst case scenario that thankfully has not happened yet on TrekRPGNet. However, as I said, I’m seeing it on other discussion boards all over and I would continue to caution our members to discuss and post in a responsible manner.
Sorry, what's a "porayer"?
All my thoughts to you boss, though.
This is a problem - many of the regimes which harbour these criminals are not elected by the people. If the British government harbours a terrorist and I disagree, I can make my displeasure known. If they continue to act in a way I despise, I can help vote them out at the next Election (and when public feeling against the Government runs very high, there can be a vote of no confidence, which if they lose means an immediate election). Granted, given the current lack of decent choices amongst the Opposition parties, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't (just slightly less damned if I do...).
The people under these regimes don't have that option. Certainly, the Taliban has a lot of popular support in Afghanistan - but they can tell the people whatever the hell they like about the Americans and no-one can gainsay it. The problem is, how can you make these countries democratic without inciting them against you so much that even a democratic government hates you?
You know, sometimes I think we shouldn't have bothered coming down out of the trees. Let the dolphins have the planet.
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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
Got to aol that, Capt Hunter. There's truth in what you wrote, and moreover you wrote it well.
Germany: Nazi's rose to power on the ballot. (1932-33)Quote:
Originally posted by Calcoran:
What I'm just trying to say is that this is exactly what a totalitarian government is all about: ruling without the consent of its people. And I bet that if I (or you, for that matter) had the misfortune to be living under such a regime, I would just keep my mouth shut and be happy if I could make it to the end of the day ... or maybe I would already have been shot, which is not very comforting either ... in any case, the regime would still be in place, even if I didn't want it to.
[This message has been edited by Calcoran (edited 09-12-2001).]
Italy: Popular support of the march on Roma leads to Fascist in power. (1922)
Cambodia: Jubilant crowds welcome the Komar Rogue (1975)
Russia: The Communist sieze power by popular and well organized demonstrations. (1917)
France: A people tied of ten years of constant revolution allow a Dictator to sieze total power. (1801)
Mexico: A popular backed general siezes control of the country as crowds greet him at the gates(1871) (?)
Conversly
All of Eastern Europe: enough is enough (1989)
Russia: Apc in flames as hardlines try to reassert control (1991)
Phillipines: Mass demonstrations led to fall of dictator (1986)
Yugoslavia: Mass demonstration causes fall of nationalist dictator (1999)
France: enough is enough (1789, 1849, 1871, 1945, eta.)
No the power in any government is in the hands of the people if the people set aside and let their government do what it wants it gives that government support. I say this not because of wanting to be hurtful or mean, but you should relook at what you wrote inlight that many good Frenchmen (and Women) died in the Resistance and Free French because they would not sit on the side in comfort they where willing to fight for what they believed in. Even if it was an occupation the principle is the same they decided not to be ruled by the tolitarian and fought that government.
The supreme mission of the tolitaian is make sure the people forget this by controlling there life and making them feel they can not exist without them, your quote only gives the meaning of the state of, not the how and why of its existence.
The problem, Eric, is that this is much easier said (specially in our comfy democracies) than done.
Of course, would France become suddenly a totalitary government, I'm pretty sure I would voice my disapproval. And be shot/imprisoned/whatever unpleasant thing they usually do. Am I that sure I would protest then? Well probably ... and still be imprisoned. Things like this take time. Things like this take planning. Hell, the French revolution even took more than a thousand years to mature! Eastern Europe needed almost a century to shake its communist dictatorship off! And I'm pretty sure Massoud, if still alive, wouldn't contradict me!
Well ... just trying to defend those people living under a totalitarian government, maybe we'd be no better than them if placed in the same conditions.
Its not that I am judging these poeple as totaly bad like I said the goal of a tolitarian government is to convince them they have no power. Many regimes are very effective at this, the Nazi's and the Communist being first rate examples, however it worth noting the "Democratic" trappings these governments usually envoke, however if they can not the people mange to get rid of them as Italy did with the Facist is 1943.
This message has been removed on request by the
poster
Hi
To begin with, I can't begin to describe how Pissed off, Hurt, Saddend, and Violated I Feel.
I Can only hope that the Animals behind this are caught and dealt with.
I also can't help feeling how close I came to being caught in this. I'm an Engineer for a Fire Sprinkler Contractor in NYC. I was to be in the city for a meeting later that morning. We have a few jobsites near the WTC, within 2-10 blocks away. We had men on these jobs- Thankfully they left wen the 1st plane hit. One of the planes engines landed on the jobsite 10 blocks away. Several of My office mates were supossed to be in NYC, All in the Downtown area. Thankfully they decided to come to the office 1st before this tragedy happened. I also know a few people on the NYPD and NYFD. My prayers go out to them and anyone involved in this tragedy.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Karg
I have just learned today that 3 Canadians were on board the planes that crashed into the WTC, and that there were probably a fair number in the towers themselves.
I am proud that Canada has joined the rest of EU (and Western World) and stands shoulder to shoulder with our allies south of the border. Make no mistake we will hold the line, we will not disappear, we will not slip quietly into the darkness. We will fight and crush the life out of the cowards who carried out this atrocity. As Pres. Bush stated they can run, but they can't hide.
I know that Sec. of State Powell has said that NATO help does not mean actual militery assistance, but I hope Canada has an active role in making them pay.
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In the Praetors Name!
Captain Blake, you are very welcome. And thank you for your compliments.
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Slan agat!
A "porayer" is a "prayer" typed in by someone with fat fingers. Sorry about the Typo... http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gifQuote:
Originally posted by Calcoran:
Sorry, what's a "porayer"?
All my thoughts to you boss, though.
Seriously, though, thank you all for the kind sentiments. When I get back to DC, I'll send y'all more info as I hear it (looks like a long road trip right now...)
[This message has been edited by Dave Biggins (edited 09-12-2001).]
A day has passed for me. I've slept, I've been at work, yet I'm still very sad, and I can't imagine how it must be for you in the States. I received this morning (which is the middle of the night for you) a mail from a friend who works in San Fran. He's a rather jolly guy, however, I've seldom seen him being so grave.
I've been thinking a bit, and a few hours ago, while reading this board, I had the feeling I knew, not whodunnit, but whydunnit.
These people hijacked America to crash it on the world.
It all seems so frightfully simple. Take the most powerful nation in the world, the only super power remaining, the one that could wipe any nation from the face of Earth. Strike it hard, as it had never been before, make it bleed. Then stand back and watch. What will the giant do, now it has been wounded?
The worst scenario would be of course the States losing control and using our friend U238 (or 235, I never remember - anyway, it's Pu now, or H) to clean the world. But there are many other things that could happen, and not only in America. Distrust, hatred, need of revenge, racial prejudices coming back, retaliations, protests, other retaliations, retaliations to retaliations, fights between those who seek revenge and pacifists... what would matter to these beings if they're destroyed in the process? Remember, they're kamikazes. They don't care if America (or NATO, or whatever) anihilates them, as long as the rest of the world is busily tearing itself apart.
I hope my point was clear, sometimes it's hard to write exaclty what you think (especially in a foreign language). We must stay calm. We must keep our head clear, however difficult that may be (I know this sounds easy for me, 5 000 kilomters from NY, and knowing absolutely no victim). This is how we can fight what happened.
I fervently hope that the US government will remember that as well. We have to prove to these creatures that now mankind has grown up. This thing (I've run out of words in my poor vocabulary) that happened must help us to build a better world now, instead of destroying it, as was expected from us.
Well, I hope I didn't offended anyone, but I had to let this out. My thoughts to all of you who had been striken by this things (and especially Dave here, as everybody else did before me - personnally, I'm an atheist, but I'm praying whatever I believe in).
And since this is a Star Trek site... do any of you remember DS9's episode Paradise Lost (and its prequel whose name I forgot)? I'm very strongly thinking to it (with the Federation as the world at large, not only USA) : the Dominion did one bombing, and next thing we know the Federation was ready to implode.
Hope there are enough Siskos out there.
[This message has been edited by C5 (edited 09-12-2001).]
I'd rather have a Douwd.
Okay, I shut up.
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"I perfectly understand your concerns, Captain, and will quietly stay in my quarters until your life threatening problem is solved, without bothering you with the importance of my mission"
UFP VIP to Enterprise Captain, alternate timeline #0348
I believe one has to be leniant and careful. Showing mercy will, as I assume be more helpful now, than violence ( and of course ths is easy to say as a non affected ).
But I think if the world community shows mercy ( that does not mean that there will be no punishment ) will at the end destroy the terrorists power. How shall they justify their acts among their followers, if the evil western society is not that evil?
And after all killing thos people in a vengeful bomb raid will only strenghten the hate of their followers.
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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI
www.farrealms.de
It has now been the day after the attack that has stunned a nation and shocked the world. We here in America have witnessed many acts of heroism. I am going to share them with you
Act 1:
During a live camera report a New York Reporter encounters a group of constuction workers coming on scene, the report asks them what they are going to do, the reply is " We don't know, but they need are help, and we are going to give it."
Act 2:
this morning at around 7:00am (est) 3000 units of blood arrived in New York City from Denver, CO by a Leer jet
Act 3:
Yesterday afternoon on a radio station in Denver,CO a DJ suspended his program to talk to a little girl who was at home alone and scared that she was going to die, until her parents came home.
Act4:
Though not yet confirmed the Passengers of flight 93, who knew they where going to die and how, overpowering there captors and unfortunately losing there lives as the plane plunged into the ground in Sommerset,PA
Act 5:
The men and Women who have died in fighting the fires, and trying to rescue the people trapped in the WTC.
These acts we will remeber and never forget.
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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member
While largely a non-violent man, I'd consider it abhorrent if those responsible (directly and otherwise) were not "brought to justice."
Comments made on the TV recently have indicated - rightly so - that the agencies of the United States treat terrorism as a crime and terrorists as criminals.
Those agents of terror, on the other hand, consider themselves soldiers.
Then treat them as soldiers.
Don't arrest them and hold them for trial.
Kill them.
If the United States is at war, then killing is justified. It is not an act of revenge, but rather a preemptive strike against those that would do harm to the American people.
Again, as I've said, I am generally a man of peace. I believe that criminals deserve rehabilitatiojn rather than execution.
These individuals are not criminals.
Hunt them down and kill them. All of them, wherever they are.
That's not revenge; that's justice.
mactavish out.
P.S. On a side note, I've heard that portions of the Arabic population of Dearborn, Michigan have been acting much like many of those in Palestine, cheering and celebrating the attack against the United States. Has anyone else seen or heard any such thing?
well
NATO just invoked article 5, the mutual defense clause, as of now all NATO countries are going to give active military and physical support to the US.
So whatever group of morons hit us just pissed off the most powerful military alliance in the world. I almost feel sorry for the stupid shitheads.
Dave
I figured that would happen, now for those of you , who have no idea what this means, is this...
The other member nations will now allow for the US, to fly or move men and materials across their borders, they will provide the approrpriate man power and assist in any way possible.
Now NATO itself has given us stipulations, these stipulations are we must have concrete evidence and proof, as to who we are going after. If we are the least bit hesitant the deal is off...
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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member
This is a good thing. That we have the support of our allies in NATO.
Plus, the Alliance would keep America (which is very, very angry ... including myself, which is already hard to control) in check by keeping a cool head when presenting concrete evidence to show is who is responsible.
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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
[This message has been edited by REG (edited 09-14-2001).]
As long as the governments go all the way and are not swayed by the candy-asses of the world to stop when the job is half done, if this is going to be a military operation then take the gloves off and let the military do what they are trained to do. Allow them to eradicate the enemy and anyone who gets in the way. "Wipe them out, all of them."
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In the Praetors Name!
Not the case at all. This is, by the way, no slam at anyone who has heard and asked about these "reports". Rumors like this are inevitable and need to be brought into the open in order for something to be done about them. Thank you for bringing it up Mac, it needs to be dealt with.Quote:
Originally posted by mactavish:
P.S. On a side note, I've heard that portions of the Arabic population of Dearborn, Michigan have been acting much like many of those in Palestine, cheering and celebrating the attack against the United States. Has anyone else seen or heard any such thing?
I want to just make sure that all on the board know that reports of any "street parties" in Dearborn are not accurate. I myself live roughly 2 miles from Dearborn, and there have not been any such gatherings.
This is based on everything I have seen locally over the last two days and after speaking directly to one of my players who actually lives in Dearborn. The mood there is very tense, but this is understandable.
Most Arabs have been very somber over the event, and there have been some vigils held for the victims. They are much like every other group and person I have seen in this country. The city of Dearborn has doubled their police patrols at last report to protect their citizens. For those of you who might not know, Dearborn has the highest population density of Arab Americans in the United States (I believe that the state of California actually has more Arab Americans, but those in this state are largely concentrated in that single area).
In fact, contrary to these rumors, the Arab-American population has been suffering attacks as anti-Arab sentiment begins to rise. These range from physical assaults on/altercations with Arab American citizens (at least one report of an assault), threats to Arab-American owned businesses (several reports including bomb threats) and although I could not find it on the local news outlet's website I think there was a report of someone defacing a local Mosque this morning.
These actions are wrong, these are citizens of the United States and wherever they came from they are deserving of the full status of citizens as well as the protection of the Constitution (for those who call for some of the things I have seen on other websites). If the Constitution means nothing during a crisis, it means nothing at all; not just for Arab Americans, but for Americans in general.
An interesting quote: Former Drug Czar Bennett was talking with Chris Matthews today and made a comment, "We are all Isrealis now." The obvious connotation being that the US is now in the same situation as Israel, suicide bombs used against civilians which seemed remote to so many of us when it happened in Tel Aviv have now become our reality.
Mad Political Scientist
Remember New York.
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P.S. The plume of smoke from New York was apparently visible from the space station in orbit. I do not know how accurate this is, I heard it on the local news which means it is probably old news and just as likely to be incorrect.
P.P.S. The Empire State Building has been evacuated according to CNN. No real followup on this in the last hour so I am not sure how serious it was.
[This message has been edited by Publius (edited 09-12-2001).]