Attribute plus edge equals zero?

Hi everyone!
I am a recent (4 yrs) addict to trek universe and a RPG lover, currently getting ready for my first experience at Narrator, after succeeding in the difficult task of assimilating my gaming friends into the Trekkie Collective (not easy at first, since Star Trek is mostly known in my country as "that funny ol' american series with the pointy-eared guy" http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/redface.gif). In order to make their first adventure a memorable experience, I want to get as much understanding as possible of the gaming system, wich means I'm going to post a lot of questions in the following days about some parts of the game mechanics I find unclear (and whose answers I failed to notice in all the others topics on this forum http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif).
So, to begin :

What exactly happends to a character who got, say, 2 in an attribute, and a -2 to one of his edge? I can understand that for the Psi attribute and range Edge, where it would mean that the character just can't use his Psi skills at range, but what, for instance, for Fitness and Strength? Does that mean that the character just won't have any die to cast, or are such cases simply forbidden in character creation? Is there another clever solution of that problem?

Hi and welcome aboard! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Don't worry about asking what you think might be silly questions - these boards are the easiest and best ways of getting answers to your LUG Trek questions. As a Karate instructor of mine recently said - "The only silly questions are the ones you don't ask."

Now, to your question. By the book:

If a character has (for example) an Intellect Attribute of 2, and a Logic Edge of -2, then he has no dice to roll when making a skill check where Intellect is the governing attribute, and you have deemed that the Logic edge is appropriate for working out the problem that resulted in the check (for example, such as trying to analyze a piece of computer software) - although the character always gets to roll his Drama Dice.

As a House Rule that I, and many others here use, you can state that Edges do not add or subtract from the Dice pool rolled; rather, Edges add or subtract directly from the dice roll, increasing or decreasing the result of the check. So, in the above example, our character would now get to roll 2 dice for his Computer Skill (based on Intellect), but subtracts 2 from the total (his Logic Edge is at -2).

Hope this helps you out... http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

I ues the same house rule and I find it much more satisfying than all those dice http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
http://www.usslexington.net
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I've never knew about that house rule, I may use it instead of the book rule.

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"Of all the shadows cast in this world, it is my own that I fear the most"
-Phoenix Merrick 2001

OK, I am not sure I understand this.

"If a character has (for example) an Intellect Attribute of 2, and a Logic Edge of -2, then he has no dice to roll when making a skill check where Intellect is the governing attribute, and you have deemed that the Logic edge is appropriate for working out the problem that resulted in the check (for example, such as trying to analyze a piece of computer software) - although the character always gets to roll his Drama Dice."

As I read it, that mean that the character in question, doen't roll zero dice, they always roll 1 dice...

I cant see how this is fair. You might as well rull that a character CANNOT take an edge that cancels out the attribute.
Surely this is not right, when compared to someone that didn't cancel out their attribute who rolls a single dice too.

For example.
Character B has Intellect 2, and Logic -1 and would roll exactly the same dice (ie; the single dice rolled would be the Drama Dice).

Looking at the above example I think I have come up with an alternative.

If a character has an edge that cancels out their edge, then they roll a single dice, this dice IS NOT the Drama Dice and therefore cannot roll more than a 6, and the digfficulty level of the task being accomplished is raised by 1 level.

For example a Klingon (Int 2 Logic -2) is trying to turn on a Computer, normally a really easy task, but the lack of applied logic makes this automatic pass into a Routine challenge requiring a roll of 4, 5 or 6...
He had better hope that its an easy OS when it boots up...


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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

Thanks everyone for your answers http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif. They sure were helpful.
Two more questions :
- From your experience, could you tell me the way the house rule affects the game (for instance, do you end up with higher or lower scores in average? Is there need for a change of DP/XP cost for edges? ...)?

- For the "by the book" use of edges Paul explained, tell me if I understood correctly : you throw your drama die, but only a 6 will allow you to throw it again, and then take the result as your score (without adding the 6). Another result on the drama die count as 0.

As for your increase in the difficulty level, Dan, don't you find it a bit harsh? With the Klingon template of the book, that would mean the average Klingon is really at a loss with computers (or whatever advanced equipement), wich was not the major feeling I got in the series (except for Alexander in the Rotarran http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif).

Quote:

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Originally posted by C5:
- From your experience, could you tell me the way the house rule affects the game (for instance, do you end up with higher or lower scores in average? Is there need for a change of DP/XP cost for edges? ...)?

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I don't as I find I want my players to suceed more often,since they all bought their skills up anyway http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Anoher house rule is limit Specializations to the edge mentality, as a +1 or +2 as opposed just being a number itself. This encourages your players to buy their skills up and be better at stuff.

But then in my game theplayers are the heroes of the series and the auidience wants to see them succeed http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Of course all this is moot the moment DecTrek his the stands http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Bye bye LUG
Bye Bye Drama Die
Hello Decipher Trek
Bye, bye LUG-a-good-bye-eye!

http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Captain Zymmer
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
http://www.usslexington.net
=-=-=-=-=-=

If you have the edges add a point instead of adding to the number of dice rolled, this ENORMOUSLY and disproporionately makes edges more powerful. To reflect this in DP, this is equivalent to buying a level in each skill that depends on that attribute! AND the highest skill reachable is two points higher, which messes up the task diffulty level chart. I thought about using that house rule when I first got the game, but I concluded that would make edges so overshadow the actual ability that the main ability would be nearly irrelevant.

While of course play with what rules you find fun, there is a game balance issue to consider.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden:

Looking at the above example I think I have come up with an alternative.

If a character has an edge that cancels out their edge, then they roll a single dice, this dice IS NOT the Drama Dice and therefore cannot roll more than a 6, and the digfficulty level of the task being accomplished is raised by 1 level.

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I concur that a player should always be able to roll at least one die, and that if the attribute + edge = zero, the test should be raised in difficulty by one degree. However, I disagree that a drama die should not "explode," because it may make a task utterly impossible to complete. And while there are certain things a character simply can't do without training, there are some times the average person should be able to perform tremendous feats. For instance, a character with Fitness 2 and Strength -2 (or better yet, Fitness 2, Strength -1 and a disease or malady reducing Strength rolls by 1) should still be able to make an attempt to lift a 350-pound piece of bulkhead off a trapped crewmate's leg. Sure, it won't be easy, but with a combination of luck and Courage, anything should be possible (just not likely.) The Drama Die represents luck, as I see it, and to take away luck is to take away a very important part of the game.

So a character having 0 dice to throw would be in fact equal to a character having 1 dice but with a raised difficulty? I don't have much experience in the ICON system (in fact, I don't have any experience at all http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/redface.gif), but it seems to me that it tends to apply the weakness to skills rather than attributes. Given that, in the ICON system, an attribute affects your probabilities at succeeding, a null attribute should lower your chances of success, instead of increasing the difficulty of the task.

I don't know if my point is relevant, but, to take an example : a character with Fitness 2 Strength 2 will succeed more often when lifting something than a character having Fitness 2, but won't find it easier (in the logic of the ICON system I mean). Therefore, a character with Fitness 2 strength -2 will have lesser chances of success, but the task won't be harder for him.
Did I make sense?


[This message has been edited by C5 (edited 08-27-2001).]

Don't forget, C5, that the PCs are the heroes of the story - they should nearly always have a chance to succeed (even if you make it a very small chance).

How much fun would the TV shows have been if the writers stuck to reality and said that the PCs could only do the things they'd been specifically trained at, and couldn't do anything else? Troi, La Forge and Picard wold have been severly screwed over by Lore, Data and the Borg in Descent if that were the case. http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif

In the end, however, it's your game - run it as you will. If you like someting you see here, feel free to use it - if you don't like it, feel equally free to not use it. http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Also, to go with your example: the guy with FIT 2 STR +2 will have an easier time lifing something than someone who only has FIT 2 - the first guy is stronger (STR +2). Likewise, the guy with FIT 2 STR -2 will have a harder time lifting the same load - he's weaker than the other two (STR -2). So, using the house Rule I mentioned above: all characters roll 2 dice to see if they can lift it (FIT 2); the first guy gets to add 2 to his roll (STR +2), the second guy doesn't add anything, the last guy subtracts 2 from his roll (STR -2).

Hope it's a little clearer...

BTW - you're probably right, Dan; I'd just never given much thought to the "by the book" situation of Attributes and Edges cancelling. To me, the House Rule is simpler, and a bit more realistic (and uses fewer dice - always a Good Thing). http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

The corollary to this is, a zero attribute with a positive edge.

This is most obvious when it comes to psionics in most races. What Flamestrike and I have come up with is that the character has potential to be a full psionic, otherwise he can only use that edge and nothing else (save the skill levels) for his tests.

I do however, have an alternate question. Since mind shield (or whatever that static psi skill is) can be used without training, and all players always get to roll the drama die, then does a 0 psi character get a chance at resisting psionics if he really concentrates? It seems that the possibility is there (after all, doing the alphabet backwards, counting from 1 to 1000 using only prime numbers seems to work).

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Sit.
Listen.
Challenge.
Learn.

Quote:

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{because of the drama die} does a 0 psi character get a chance at resisting psionics if he really concentrates?

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My opinion would be: yes, absolutely. But you are overlooking a highly relevant rule from the core rulebook. If the defender has zero psi, they can use their WILLPOWER attribute to defend with. Granted, if the attacking psi has even a low skill level the attacker is still likely to succede. But strong willed non-psis have a tiny bit better odds. And there's always the drama die to indicate a lucky break...

No problem, Paul - your explanation was clear from the beginning. It's just that I like to discuss things over and over (I must have some Tellarite genes somewhere http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif)

I found another point of concern, however : what happens to a character whose Fitness + Vitality = 0 in terms of damage points per Wound level http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/confused.gif (apart from being the perfect redshirt http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/wink.gif) ?

Thats easy.

With Fitness 2, Vitality -2, should they take a single point of damage, they would bypass ALL the damage levels and go straight to very dead.

Do not pass Go, Do not collect £200. http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/tongue.gif

Although I cannot imagine any player ever taking this... http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

Urgh.... right, better not mess with the vitality edge. Now we know the stats of these redshirts who die at the slightest injury http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif
Thanks for all the answers.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden:


As I read it, that mean that the character in question, doen't roll zero dice, they always roll 1 dice...

I cant see how this is fair. You might as well rull that a character CANNOT take an edge that cancels out the attribute.
Surely this is not right, when compared to someone that didn't cancel out their attribute who rolls a single dice too.

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A character with INT 1 LOG-1 rolls one die... the drama die.

A character with INT 1 rolls two dice, 1 for INT + the drama die.



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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

Quote:

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Originally posted by calguard66:
A character with INT 1 LOG-1 rolls one die... the drama die.

A character with INT 1 rolls two dice, 1 for INT + the drama die.

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Then what, pray tell, does someone with INT 2 or INT 1 LOG +1 roll? 3 dice (2 plus drama die?) The rules spell out very clearly that if only one die is to be thrown, it is the Drama Die. In any case other than Attribute + Edge = 0, Attribute + Edge should equal the number of dice to throw. The Drama Die is not a freebie, it's part of the normal set of dice.

I prefer allowing the players to have the chance to pull it off, but make it that much less likely that they will. Allowing extra dice is making the game easier than it's supposed to be.

An option that I've considered for ZERO dice situations, is having the player toll TWO dice, but keeping the lowest. That way they have a chance, but still have a reason to raise stats so that they can legitamately roll 1 die.

Rolling 1die and subtracting 1 from the total might be good as well.

For negative totals, you could continue along the same lines.

Quote:

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Originally posted by reimero:
Then what, pray tell, does someone with INT 2 or INT 1 LOG +1 roll? 3 dice (2 plus drama die?) The rules spell out very clearly that if only one die is to be thrown, it is the Drama Die. In any case other than Attribute + Edge = 0, Attribute + Edge should equal the number of dice to throw. The Drama Die is not a freebie, it's part of the normal set of dice.

I prefer allowing the players to have the chance to pull it off, but make it that much less likely that they will. Allowing extra dice is making the game easier than it's supposed to be.

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I should have been more clear... I was suggesting an alternative, where you always roll one die, the drama die, plus whatever dice you are allowed for attributes.

This way INT 1 LOG+1 would roll 2 dice for general INT skills, 3 dice for LOG specific skills, etc.

Essentially everybody gets the drama die as a bonus die... which removes the inconsistancy of getting the same number of dice with a score of 0 or 1.

This is what I do in my games.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

Wow, a fellow frogman! http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/wink.gif
Welcome C5! http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif Hope you'll find it cushy here http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif.

As for the question asked, I must say I quite like the alternative proposed by tonyg. Question is: how do you use the D-dice in that case? You could consider both dices to be D-dices, mind you. Example: Our Klingon (Int 2 Logic -2) still trying to switch the console on. Rolls 2 dices.
(4,5) for instance gives a 4.
(6,4) also gives a 4 since whatever result he re-rolls for the 6, the lowest result is still 4.
(6,6) has him re-roll two dices, where (2,5) for instance means he achieved an 8.
Makes sense? I'll try it next time we play. Oh, and we do not take negative vitality into account for the wounds ... dying at the slightest scratch doesn't make much sense, does it?

By the way, if you plan on GMing a ST game, by all means do have a look at the Narrator's Ready Room. It's teeming with ideas and bits of scenarii that make a GM's life a whole lot easier http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif.

Well ... just looking forward to reading your question about Specializations http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/wink.gif.


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Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
Thats easy.

With Fitness 2, Vitality -2, should they take a single point of damage, they would bypass ALL the damage levels and go straight to very dead.

Do not pass Go, Do not collect £200. http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/tongue.gif

Although I cannot imagine any player ever taking this... http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Our Boslic Chief of Ops is like this. I have encouraged her to buy off the negative edge, but she has no reason in character since her character spends more time studying skills and particing her new psionic diciplines. She also ducks and runs whenever in combat, trying not to get hit http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif



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Captain Zymmer
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
http://www.usslexington.net
=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi Calcoran, happy to find another froggy out there (and who reads Terry Pratchett too :cool http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif.
Thanks for the advice on the Narrator's Ready Room (I've been lurking on it since the past few days). See you there!
And for my question on specializations it will come soon... I'm just determining wich one I'll ask first http://216.40.212.6/Board/ubb/smile.gif