Cardassian Armaments and Romulan variety

In Spacedock, the Galor-class is given photon torpedoes, but I don't remember an episode where I saw them use photorps. And I was thinking of converting some on the Romulan ships from "Starfleet Command: Empires at War" because I don't want to have to pull out a Warbird everytime my PCs run into them and the scout is too small. I was thinking maybe the KR-7 (a D-7 with plasma torps instead of photorps) and some of the "newer" Romulan designs; Novahawk, Condor, War Eagle. Any ideas and has anyone already done some of these?
They would probably be arounnd size 6 or 7. Have disuptors and plasmas(light or medium) and of course the cloak.

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

If you can find a copy, theres a pile of ships in 'Way of D'era' waiting for conversion until Steve finishes the Romulan SRM.

Theres also a few ships in the Spacedock thread. But you'll need to search a bit.

As for Cardassian torpedos. Your partially right. At no point have we ever seen Cardassian ships fire a photon. However there is some evidence that they have the technology.

Terok Nor, when abandoned was armed with just 3 photon torpedos, considering that it had only recently been abandoned by the Cardassians, its safe to assume that these launchers were Cardassian in origin.

Its also fairly safe to assume that with the extreme range of torpedos over energy weapons, the fact that the Cardassian fleet hasn't been picked apart by the Federation and the Klingons in the 7 years run of DS9. So they must have had something...
Hell, even the Maquis would have had a HUGE tactical advantage if they didn't have torpedos.


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Dan.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

What Dan said. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

If you want a couple of Romulan ships prior to the release of SRM: Romulans, there are some in the Dominion War Sourcebook. That should give you a little variety to play around with, at least.

Steve Long

I interpreted that scene differently. I assumed that the photon torpedoes were Starfleet in origin. Note that their visual appearance was like the normal starfleet issue we'd seen the federation fleet use in the opening scene of the pilot movie for DS9.

My assumption was that Starfleet had installed a launcher, but because they were still moving in and weren't settled yet, they hadn't had time to stockpile much ammunition. In fact, the 6 tops that they had were probably shipped "in the chamber" of the launcher that was installed.

Given the HUGE number of Cardassian ships seen in battles at the end of DS9 and the ferociousness of the battles, it seems unlikely that they have torps.

On Cardassian Torpedoes, Voyager episode "Dreadnought" the ship was equipped with Quantum torpedoes that could have been used on Voyager. Second the battle for Chentaka, each defense platform carried some obscene number of "Quantum Plasma ?" Torpedoes, but that might have been from Dominion tech.
But other than those two references...the Cardassians should have been conquered by the Klingons decades ago http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif.

Phoenix...


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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-Napoleon

On a related note, Why do the Cardassians have two types of energy weapons on their ships, Spiral-Wave Disruptors and Compressor (a.k.a. Compressed Plasma) Beams? Do one or them have the range of a torpedo? Or some other special effect that would make them beneficial?

Can somebody tell where the idea of spiral wave disruptors came from? The only mention of Cardie weapon systems I heard of are the compressor beam weapons, they use comp. Beam side arms right up to ship board weapons. I'm not knocking the idea, I would just like to know where the idea came from. Is there a "canon" reference?

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In the Praetors Name!

Most non-canon sources (most notably the Dominion War game) have Cardie ships lacking torps or torp-like weapons.

However I could have sworn that when the Obsidian order and the Tal'shiar fleets attacked the Founders "homeworld" that those Keldon class vessels fired photon torpedos(or samesuch)at the planet.

However since they had been altered to have Rommie cloaks you could claim they could have had Rommie torp tubes added. Still they were Cardassian coloured torps...

When it comes to Cardie torpedoes I'll go with what Dan said as well. The Cardies fought the Feds in the 2350's(?) and it would be likely that the Cardassians witnessed the benefits of long range weapons like the "photon" torpedo first hand in engagements against Fed vessels. I've personally always felt that the Keldon class in the very least was equipped with torpedoes. Remember there were three or four versions of the Galor class alone which was generally classified in TNG and DS9 as a "cruiser" type warship. An exception was the dialogue spoken by Dax in "Sacrifice of Angels" (watch a taped copy) referred to "Galor class DESTROYERS" again repeated on page 220 book four in the Dominion War novelization. Presumably they may have been weaker classes of Galors to entice the Federation fleet into the trap Dukat had planned for them then again maybe it was just a scripting error.
In TNG the Galors had "plasma banks" and the aforementioned "compressor beams" like stated in the TNG Corebook. "Spiral-wave disruptors" comes from the DS9 Tech Manual and I do not recall the weaponry spoken in dialogue on DS9 to make this officially "canon" but presumably the reference was always in the producers DS9 "bible" for the show. Again from "The Wounded" episode of TNG until DS9's "Defiant" the impression was given that the Cardassians were producing new weapons/ships etc. or in the very least the Obsidian Order was.
The orbital weapon platforms in the Chin'Toka system had plasma torpedoes as well as beam weapons (not to mention regenerative shields and an independant power source) and conceivably the torpedoes may have been based on Romulan technology anyway considering the brief Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order alliance against the Founders in 2371.

I suppose that the Cardassians could have developed their own version of the photorp from captured Starfleet vessals and installations. Or the could have gotten the tech from the Dominion, but what about before the Dominion War. Mayber that is just something about Cardassian tactics. Maybe they like to get in close and use "knifefight" tactics.
For my Romulan ship I am looking for something roughly the equivalent of the Intrepid class, a little bigger and a little tougher, but not too much. Probably size 7, my PCs are on a size six frigate and managed to destroy one D'deridex and cripple another, which self-destructed. The tactical officer got REALLY lucky with two spreads of quantum torps. Their shields were down to 15% and they had some minor damage but the Warbirds were having a hard time targeting them. The combat started with a hijacked freighter of dilithium and a cloaked Warbird. The Warbird fired first after it uncloaked behind the PC's ship. That was the only hit it got in. The PC helmsman put her through some very good defensive manuevers and then got into the attack manuevers. They targeted weapons systems and engines at first, but when the second Warbird showed up, it got ugly. Full spreads fore and aft (10 and 8 torps)and he rolls a dramatic success. Things at least got a little more tense when they boarded and retook the freighter right at the edge of the Neutral Zone. I just need a smaller ship that won't have the size difference penalties, so a smaller size 6 or 7 would do fine. I think I will Romulanize the K't'inga, K'vort, and B'rel ships. Just give them plasma torps.

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

Personally, I think the reasons why the Cardassians may have had torps but never -ever- used them is a simple matter of economy. They're a people that grew out of a planet where they had virtually exhausted all their natural resources. Almost as policy they probably developped a combat ideology on which expensive weapons or weapons which required expended materials (which energy weapons do not, least of all to the same degree as ordinance) are to be used only as a last resort.

Even now that they have forced labour camps on countless subjugated and "client" worlds they undoubtably would maintain that kind of ideology, just because they spent so long without the ability to really thrive from a natural resource stand-point.

Torpedo's are expensive, especially if you have trouble believing that you can afford to make more.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Can somebody tell where the idea of spiral wave disruptors came from? The only mention of Cardie weapon systems I heard of are the compressor beam weapons, they use comp. Beam side arms right up to ship board weapons. I'm not knocking the idea, I would just like to know where the idea came from. Is there a "canon" reference?

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I was influenced by the DS9 Tech Manual, so it's not really canon http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-Napoleon

FWIW, when I was writing Spacedock, I asked Rick Sternbach what the difference was between normal disruptors and spiral-wave disruptors. His answer: "None, really; they just get the energy to the disruptor in a slightly different way."

Hence, there are no special rules for 'em in SD. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Steve Long

If Rick said it its good 'nuff for me. ST: The Magazine also listed the Galor in the diagrams as having disruptors anyway.
To add to Thanatos points above the Cardassians main threat before 2372 and their war with the Klingons was predominantly Maquis dissidents. Before that it was the Bajorans and both of those adversaries had smaller vessels that perhaps could easily elude torpedo locks if one remembers, for example, the scene of the Galor class being bounced on my several smaller Maquis vessels at close range equipped with "Type VIII" phasers in TNG's "Preemptive Strike". The "spiral-wave" disruptor may have been developed to easily fire a beam in a swath and/or have an improved chance of hitting such vessels. The opening shots in the "Sacrifice of Angels" episode feature a wing of Peregrine fighters
attacking a Galor class and a beam shot from the Galor tracks and easily takes out one of the small ships. The Cardies according to most opinions favour close-in wolf pack tactics against larger vessels where beam weapons like we saw in SOA would have more of an effect and the longer ranged weapons like torpedoes would prove more ineffective and dangerous to allied vessels.
The Cardassian fleet as a whole may be more akin to the "brown water" navies of today where certain countries put more emphasis on scores of patrol ships and destroyers deployed within a region without the economic burden of the opposite like the USN's "blue water" global power projection navy with its long range capabilites. Perhaps
it is forunate for Starfleet that they have no money to worry about in the 24th century. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Weyoun11 (edited 07-04-2001).]

Quote:

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Originally posted by Thanatos:
Personally, I think the reasons why the Cardassians may have had torps but never -ever- used them is a simple matter of economy. They're a people that grew out of a planet where they had virtually exhausted all their natural resources. Almost as policy they probably developped a combat ideology on which expensive weapons or weapons which required expended materials (which energy weapons do not, least of all to the same degree as ordinance) are to be used only as a last resort.

Even now that they have forced labour camps on countless subjugated and "client" worlds they undoubtably would maintain that kind of ideology, just because they spent so long without the ability to really thrive from a natural resource stand-point.

Torpedo's are expensive, especially if you have trouble believing that you can afford to make more.

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Ships are more expensive than torpedos, trained, experienced soldiers are more expensive than ships.

"Economy of force" means using exactly what you need to do the job, no more and no less.

A captain who risked his ship by trying to conserve torpedos would be harming the Cardassian cause, not helping it. If the ship gets blown up because the enemy wasn't neutralized as quickly as possible, the torps get blown up too.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

Good counter argument, but it stands, nevertheless, that the Cardassians do use what was earlier referred to as "knife-fight" tactics, by Antonsb214 above. Here's how I see some of their earlier ship-design and strategy sessions going:

Presented Tactics A and B
Tactic A - Use ships relying on greater shield power from such advances as embedded nacelles and utilise arrays of powerful disruptors to pummel opponents and bring down their shields, and then hull, before their weapons can penetrate our shields
Tactic B - Strike opponent at range with torpedo weapons before closing to finish off with fewer disruptor blasts, thus posing less risk to the attacking ship (in theory)

Now given that Cardassian military history has proven that Tactic A is a viable method of keeping their ships and personnel alive the obvious choice for a species used to being basically broke would be to use non-expended resources given equal or near-equal chances of victory irregardless of chosen attack method. A more resource rich empire (such as the Federation) would be far more likely to choose Tactic B because of even the most marginal increase in survivability rates (hence torpedo cruisers like the Akira... if i recall the Akira correctly). For the Cardassians Tactic A is made more viable because their ship designs with embedded nacelles and their potent disruptors. Combine this with Federation tendancy to walk up to you and try talking anyway, and you've got your nearest neighbours walking into a tactic you would have preferred anyway.

Granted, I'm not claiming to -know- why the Cardassians fight the way they do, maybe they just prefer the simple efficiency of energy based weapons or they didn't develop viable torps until later on, I'm just backing my theory with the nearest thing to logic I have http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Than

There an episode of TNG (I believe the first appearance of Cardassians) where there was that Bajoran Militant leader who destroyed the federation colonies. Anyways, near the end of the episode, when Starfleet ordered Picard to not interfere and the Bajorans took off from the planet they were hiding in in impulse-only spacecraft. There were a couple of cardassian ships who intercepted the ship and destroyed it with what looked like missle weapons. (Actually I think the ep was titled Ro Laren.)

The DS9 TM has a list of weaponry produced per year by the Cardassian Union. It lists 54,300 torpedoes per year.

Devide that into the 8000 odd ships described in the DWS, and its not a lot of torpedoes.

I figure the Cardassian have torpedo technology, but physical resources prevent them manufacturing a sufficient quantity to equip every ship with them. I would say larger ships and stations have them, but not every one.

Of course after the alliance with the Dominion, I would think they would have used imported Dominion torps and upgrade their ships. At least until the Wormhole was closed and the war started.


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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."
Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Prophecy Girl.

On Cardassian torpedoes, Voyager episode "Dreadnought" the ship was equipped with quantum torpedoes that could have been used on Voyager.

That has to have been a dread glitch--a simple continuity error. There'd be no reason for the Cardassians to have quantum torpedoes. They're a relatively new technology... unless...

What makes more sense to me is that the Maquis armed the ship with a handful of quantum torpedoes (acquired from some sympathetic Starfleet officer, perhaps, when he "left" his post to join the Maquis, a laEddington--who, as I recall, absconded with industrial replicators). This explains how Dreadnought could be so armed, but keeps quantums firmly in the hands of the Federation where they belong. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Again not canon, but I was wrong about Dominion Wars. Been playing the game and the big ship (Hutet) has what looks to be Photorps to me. They sure aint disruptor pulses (since the Achillies class ship in the intro cutscene intercepted them with pulse phasers).

LCM, as I recall didn't the "Spoon-heads" http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif have the best intel operatives in known space the Obsidion Order, a little spy work can go a very long way. So your "dread glitch--a simple continuity error" might be fact (Eeek). As you said "...Unless...".

Phoenix...

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"Of all the shadows cast in this world, it is my own that I fear the most"
-Phoenix Merrick 2001

Since the Dreadnaught was a super advanced prototype, I don't think quantums are beyond the realms of possiblity.

It had shields completely unaffected by repeated photon fire. It had a plasma wave emitter that destroyed multiple attacking ships. It carried a charge capable of destroying a small moon.

A few quantums aren't unreasonable, IMHO.

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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."
Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Prophecy Girl.