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I know there is a nickname for them, pussy-BORG I think it is...but let's face it...unless you want to sacrifice your players, any encounter with the BOBW Borg will result in assimilation.
The ugly mean TNG BORG are unstoppable unless your name is Picard and you can hear them talking to each other.
So why not use the Pussy-Voyager-BORG and let your players win once in a while?
Well, if you want them to be grabbing for the Technobabble-cannons whenever a problem arises..... ;)
It's your choice, Capt. Zymmer.
Cause they suck!Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Zymmer
So why not use the Pussy-Voyager-BORG?
Seriously though they're still pretty good if you take out all refs to Voyager whopping them.
;)
This is my point...I run a game for my players to have a good time and save the day...In my game they are as important as the crews of the Ent, DS9 and Voyager.
Besides, I agree with Sig...the Voyager BORG are not a push over, if you take the writers mistakes out :)
[Pre-emptive Moderator Hat on...]
I can sense VGR-bashing on the horizon... :)
I do agree that there are differences between the Borg of Voyager and the Borg of TNG. I would also agree that the TNG Borg are much more "omnipotent", for lack of a better term.
With that in mind, let us endeavor to focus our discussions on the impact of using those two styles of Borg in campaign (or in finding a compromise). Let us try to avoid declaring Braga %@$#s...
[Moderator Hat off, Narrator Hat on]
I tend to minimize the use of Borg in my games. They appeared in just one out of over 30 adventures, with the crew of the H.G. Wells decimated as a result of that encounter. They survived only by being saved by the Prophets (it was an alternate universe game where the Borg won at Wolf 359 and the characters were helping the alternate Sisko find the Celestial Temple).
If you want to use the TNG style Borg, I don't believe they can be a frequent adversary. The advantage to this is the mere mention of them sends chills all around the gaming table.
However, you can still leverage the Borg, putting them in the background - tales of the compromises ethical people will make to defeat the Borg (a Leyton like coup, a chance to destroy them like in "I, Borg").
If you want them to appear frequently, you do really need to weaken them, which is what Voyager did indeed do. This can have the impact of Cyberman syndrome, as seen in Dr. Who. (The Cybermen grew less fearsome with each encounter).
Agreed on both counts sir :)
I just feel that the Voyager BORG can be as much of a threat without having to be seen as unbeatable...I mean really, I don't want my players to give up all hope the minute I bring in a BORG cube.
What would you guys say are the primary differences, without bashing, between the two?
If you want to use 'Pussy' Borg, so that your players can win, As has been said thats your own affair.
I dont subscribe to the Voyager 'beat a borg a week' style, and in ordewr to ensure that my players stand a chance.
I dont use them.
Really, its that simple. If the Borg show in my game its as a plot device, just as they were most of the time during TNG... Watch the episodes and you'll see the Borg werte only the main adversary once, during Best of Both Worlds, the rest of the time it was the Threat of the Borg...
And before you say it, in Descent, the bad guy was Lore, not the Borg, they were the sidekicks...
But at the end of the day it comes down to what you want, whether it be Borg that can be beaten or Starfleet Victory class Star Destroyers...
Look at it this way, Voyager was able to get info from different races who were either fighting the Borg or had fought them off, there were one or two mentioned in the series that had done this. So with this info they were able to adapt their tech and tactics to be more effective...such as beaming a torpedo into a scout ship when the shields were down (I loved that). The weapons in Endgame...Well you could say they were the natural extenstion of this new tech. Then again I haven't heard how a transphasic torpedo works, but I did think that it only one to destroy one cube was a little...silly
You also have to remember that Voyager was stuck in the Borg's home quadrant, of course there aregoing to be more of them around.
But I think run properly the powerful Borg could be stopped, it just takes care and intelligence on the PCs part. We as humans are very adaptable, not as much as the Borg but almost.
What is that supposed to mean Dan? I don't get it.Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Gurden
But at the end of the day it comes down to what you want, whether it be Borg that can be beaten or Starfleet Victory class Star Destroyers...
By using the BORG as a threat but not unbeatable, why does that compare to having uber-stupid ships?
And how do the BORG in First Contact rate?
That comment was supposed to mean that at the end of the day, what you want to run in your games is up to you... Whether it be... yada, yada, yada...Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Zymmer
What is that supposed to mean Dan? I don't get it.
Thats All it was supposed to mean, you read a little more into it than was meant!
My bad Dan, certainly I did not think you meant to offend.
But in the end, this is a problem I have noticed in Trek discussions, those who diverge from the standard sometimes get lumped into the same bucket as those who go way off the beaten track. So I guess that was in my mind.
I apologize if my reply upset you.
Back on topic?
So how do the First Contact BORG get qualified?
The 'sissy' BORG from VOY had many weaknesses that the show brought up to defeat them, to name a few:
1) Inability to detect those that did not pose a threat to their vessel, or where irrelevant. Have the BORG never heard of internal sensors?
2) Species 8472 which kicked their butts in a few shows.
3) The internal DNA thing which made certain drones 'dream', never liked this one either, why couldn't the BORG just check for REM during this deep dream mode.
There are more, but I can't remember them all:(
Now the TNG borg were omnipotent, unstoppable, everlasting, nearly immortal. You hit them with everythin you got and they keep coming. Even Picard lost to them( he was assimilated), and the Trojan Virus-like plan was shelved, because it was unethical. It took the best and brightest long to figure out how to destroy ONE cube.
VOY took on countless cubes and won.
If you need an enemy to make your players run screaming pleading for mercy and redemption(like mine do), then use the BORG ala TNG. If you need an impressive, powerful vs phasers kind of enemy which will act without emotion then use the BORG ala VOY style.
I have only used the BORG once, half my PC's died or were assimilated, the only good side was that one managed to save a Cardassian vessel also stuck inside. The assimilated PC's later make cameo appearances as plot devices.:cool:
I think this was established on TNG and certainly in First Contact.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
1) Inability to detect those that did not pose a threat to their vessel, or where irrelevant. Have the BORG never heard of internal sensors?
Like Bees, unless you are percieved as a threat, they have no need to mess with you.
Just out of curiosity, how many cubes did Voyager destroy by themselves?
And Species 8472 was established as being something truely disturbing in their power level. I don't think they beating the BORG made the BORG anymore weak, it simply showed how powerful they were. IMHO
I think that in TNG, the Borg still reacted if you had weapons on you though. First Contact did in fact show them acting that way.
I don't know exactly how many they destroyed since I never taped the show, but they did attack the central Borg lair. There were the three in Endgame.
Species 8472 was just a bigger, badder and meaner version of the BORG like they were supposed to be in TNG. Resistance was truly futile against the TNG BORG and Species 8472. An unstoppable force which cannot be beaten, though they later were.
Why can't the good guys lose sometimes?:confused:
I think (in my own very humble opinion) that the people who use the Borg just once are missing on a good way to make them even scarier.
The way i run the Borg is so: You CAN defeat them. It just takes a new way everytime and there are sacrifices to be made.
If you destroy one cube by making a star go supernova or whatever (sacrifice), the next time you meet one.. they are going to have metaphasic shields or somesuch.
I think it gets scarier all the time.
Another way to look at it for the purists out there... In order to DEFEAT the Borg, you don't have to destroy them. You have to deny them their objective.
In my MSH RPG games, i've pitted my players often times against unbeatables like the Juggernaut. And almost everytime, my players prevailed by working around the problem instead of trying to directly overcome it.
So i think there's way to have you cake and eat it too.
I just watched BoBW last night on TNN's marathon and actually in that episdoe they walk around inside the cube for quite sometime with phasers, so the precendent is set.
As to the Endgame arguement, well I think that episode went way too far, but hey.
Species 8472 were the idea that there is always a bigger fish.
And why can't the good guys lose? Becuase they are heroes, they can be set back, but in the end the hero must previal. The is the staple of morality plays...now you can have the heroes win through great cost and sacrifice as Bob points out...and the Juggernaut parallel is excellent. I just wouldn't want to wipe out half my PCs in the process...for us we play to escape harsh reality...not be deafted after a day of working a bozo job or fighting with the spouse, or the other miriad of modern events that drive people's stress levels up.
Still like DanG says, to each our own game.
Okay I think from here out I will use Voyager BORG, mixed with TNG Borg. Scary but not unstoppable...but no Queen, I really hated that idea and still do.
That said once they start an invasion of the Dominion I think I will take McTavish's idea and have them wipe each other out...for the most part, including Dominion suicide runs on their transwarp hubs and their home system/complex...a few subspace weapons should do the trick no? :D
I intend to intorduce the Borg in my next session purely as a short scenario plot-device: the PCs will be on their Cadet Cruise at/during Wolf 359.
There will be no direct interaction with the brg for the PCs, although I might have a drone or two materialise on the PCs ship during the battle (there's nothing to say that didn't happen).
Basically, at Wolf 359 the PCs task will be to be scared, be heroic, act bravely, then get the hell out of there before their ship blows up...
The only reason why Species 8472 got one up on the Borg. Was because the Borg couldn't adapt to something they couldn't assimilate. A major draw back in a society where assimilation is the primary source of information.
Still...a few rudimentry sensors wouldn't've gone astray ;)
As to Borg in my games:
1 scout cube slightly more powerful then the PC's ship. Many crew assimilated including 1 PC.
A couple of 'echoes' to scare the PC's. ie Cubes along the RNZ scoping up things ala TNG 'NZ'.
A 'Q' ep with a alternate future encounter with 2 Cubes on the way to Wolf 359 (explain how the VOY ep with a cube of Wolf 359 assimilated crews)
Wolf 359 itself, PC's won but at great sacrifice and a alternate timeline was made.
Wolf 359 again in a time traveling ep to restore the timeline by the Prophets (PCs indirectly killed Sisko).
So all in all only 2 direct confrontations ( a 3rd indirectly).
So far my players have only encountered the BORG once
Endgame Redux, where they were part of the fleet that tackled the BORG cube...a whole lot of ships got destoryed and theirs was badly damaged...1 cube came through and then Voyager and Farscape, then Lexington (PCs ship), Voyager and Farscape force closed the conduit, causing the 14 cubes inside to go kabluey!
Can't remember which Voayger Ep as that bit where they get readings of hundreds of BORG and then it is the debris that rolls out.
It should also be pointed out that I did not use Timetravel Janeway with extra tech in this ep.
My main problem with the Voyager BORG has never been the fact that Voyager could beat them, but all those little pieces of background about the Borg the show introduced without ever really eplaining anything.
Every Borg episode showed us some new aspect of their "society", but never showed us how all these elements fit together or how the Borg came to be in the first place (unless I missed some vital info - haven't watched Voyager much from mid-6th season on).
What shouldn't have changed between TNG and VOY is not that you can't beat the Borg, it's the emotionless and alien way of the Borg. That's what really made them frightening to me and it's something that Voyager did away with with all the "social interactions" they had with the Borg.
Lancer I couldn't agree with you more :)
In my game the BORG are the relentless kind...no queen, no solcializing...none of that...just single minded expansion.
You can't reason with them
You can't scare them
You can't bribe them
They are the BORG
Resistence Is Futile
I don't see any reason why you can't use either.
Myself, I also tend to avoid using the Borg much. And when I do, it tends to be as a threat, rather than as a one on one confrontation. The last time we used, 'em, it was as a rapidly approaching threat, while the crew tried to wipe out all traces of Omega from a planet with a ruined civilisation, populated by the primitive descendants of that civilisation. If they didn't finish in time, not only would the Borg et their hands on new Omega reasearch, but also on our crew and their ship. It provided a real sense of tension.
The only thing that got watered down in Voy. was the power of their ships. Face to face in the corridors they were still as terrifying as in TNG.