Ent. Episode 6 "The Andorian Incident"

Note possible spoilers!













ACK!

First of all when did Vulcans become blood hounds...What's with the "humans smell", don't remember Spock complaining! STUPID!

Andorians, yet another continuity grenade. Andorian Imperial Guard...Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't you need an Empire for an Imperial Guard? Funny nothing was mentioned about the Andorian Empire in any of the series.

Now, if they were Am Tal (Andorian Intelligence) then I could stomach it. Andorian Imperial Guard! ACK!

They are Blue Klingons with antennae instead of a boney crest. I really do want to like this show, but they just keep making it so damn difficult. Overall the episode was better then the last two, but only just.

OK everywhere I go and everywhere I look I continue to see people raging about continuity. Now, someone correct me if I am wrong but isn't this show's very purpose to redefine the Star Trek universe. The very exsistance of a temporal cold war, not to mention the fact that it isn't a cold war anymore because someone is supplying technology to the Suliban and that already alters the timeline, but the exsistance of a cold war automatically gives them a blank canvas on which to paint the future anew. I understand that as Trek fans we are probably bar none the toughest audience in that we expect nothing than perfection from the "powers that be" but this show appears to be successfull. Successfull in that they are presenting Star Trek to a new audience while incorporating an amicable solution to the fact that the technology of TOS era is a figment of the imagination of Gene Rodenberry in the early 60's. Without that breath of new life I think the future of Star Trek would be in grave danger. Now I am a die hard fan of all of the other series. I will even argue that Voyager was not only good but great. But people don't like change, and that is understandable because it means that we all have more to learn. But isn't that what Star Trek is all about anyways?

I'm afraid I must disagree with the continuity violations.

I view the Vulcan smell issue as a non-issue. Vulcans probably decided to become more polite. :)


Given that Andorians were the focus of about 0.5 total episodes of the various Star Trek series, the fact that the Andorians had an "empire" is no violation of any continuity. How often to you hear Japan referred to as "The Empire of Japan" in modern news reports?

In "Among the Clans" it was clearly stated that everything there was speculation and Paramount might do their own thing, so the Am Tal issue is irrelevant. However, as far as "non-canon" sources go, back in the 70's and early 80's it was assumed the Andorians did indeed have an empire (FASA-trek made that assumption). "The Star Empire of Epsilon Indii" is referred to in the Star Fleet Technical Manual as the government of the Andorians.

I really enjoyed this episode a lot. I think it is my favorite of the series.

I thought that the "Super Smell" power was only limited to females. I'll have to go back and check the tape, but I was pretty sure of that. Maybe the male was just commenting on how bad it was for her. That's the closest I can come to "handwaving" it away.

The "Imperial Guard" didn't bother me that much. The name could have been a hold over of sorts. I vaguely remember reading something (pre TNG) that said that Andorians had a small empire.

After all, we still have Cavalry units, but no horses today.

"My people are a passionate and violent race."

It sure seems so. They knew that there was something going on at the Monestary, and so kept picking at it until they got the answers they were looking for.

They knew they were being lied to, and passionately and violently took action to solve the problem.

But, they were restrained in their violence. Relatively, anyways.

If they were Klingons, they'd have rounded up the Vulcans, used pain sticks (or Agonizers, or whatever they used in Errand of Mercy), ripped the place apart when that didn't work, found the secret lair, and bombed the hades out of the planet.

The Andorians raid the place, interrogate the people and leave when they don't find anything.

When they get another hint of something wrong, they repeat the procedure.

They beat up Archer because they knew that he was the weakest link. They threatened T'pol for the same reason. Archer likes her, and by threatening her, maybe the Andorians can get his cooperation.

While I didn't find the Andorian portrayal very flattering, I found it much more so than the portrayal of the lying, cheating Vulcans. I didn't find anything to negate my personal view of Andorians, which is what I was dreading about this episode.

I liked this episode the most of any since the pilot. It really had that "into the unknown" feeling. We got to see that sometimes human bullheadedness is a good thing. Nobody was overtly stupid, other than the Vulcans, maybe.

There is definately the possibility of further Human/Andorian contact, and probably in a very friendly way. After all, the two sides can commiserate on the way they were both shafted by the Vulcans. :D

Alex

Chronologically, weren't they introduced in TOS episode "Journey to Babel"? Regardless of the fact that these Andorians had different antennae located in a different place. At that time, didn't the Ambassador (Shras?) describe his people as "violent and passionate"? If my memory is correct, I don't see much of a continuity grenade, here.

Also, these particular Andorians may or may not have been operating with official government sanction. Remember, the Federation requirement for a unified planetary government doesn't apply in this pre-Federation era.

Something else occurs to me. Did Archer give the Andorians that sensor device, with its damning evidence, because of his personal bias against the Vulcans? It certainly weakens their position vis a vis Earth, as the morally superior creatures. And it pays them back for a lifetime of disappointment, and the fact that his father didn't live to see the launch of the vessel that was his life's work.

Is that too dark a motivation for Archer? Or too complex a concept for the House of B&B? I don't know.

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OK everywhere I go and everywhere I look I continue to see people raging about continuity. Now, someone correct me if I am wrong but isn't this show's very purpose to redefine the Star Trek universe.

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I hope that is not the reason why this series was made - I believe the series was created to flesh out the history of the Star Trek universe and give a snapshot of the Early days of human spaceflight.

The temporal cold war is, in my opinion just a long-term metaplot for the series. I don't see it has an excuse to rewrite continuity.

Lets put at this way - TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager all are part of a great history. I am pretty forgiving of glitches here and there and even more forgiving of Enterprises glitches (Phase Pistols and the Akiraprise being the most prominant in my mind).

I can appreciate rewriting of continuity to repair a glitch or to remove some silly, ill-advised, or asethetically unsound concept (like the modernizing of the Trek sets in Enterprise). I can even see a minor "tweaking" or bending of continuity in terms of a good story.

I cannot stand the ignoring of canon just because its inconvient to keep to continuity. Its a mark of a good writer that at least knows the subject matter enough to write a good script and not make major mistakes. The small ones are okay, its the big ones that bug me.

Now as to the Andorians, I can only say that there is no on-screen reference to first-contact with the Andorians and almost no information on them in canon Trek. So as long as they refrain from the cardboard-villian portrayl I cannot complain. Like I said in my thread, they had me suckered for most of the episode, only to force me to change my mind at the last minute. I liked the episode.

Ok fine, we won't talk contiuity here.

"A violent and...race!" It seems to me these Andorians weren't much as warriors, sure they could beat up Archer while he was in a chair, but he and Tucker pretty much mopped the floor with them when they got into hand to hand. Going on what was shown in "Journey to Babel" Archer and Tucker should be wearing the heads on backward. It has always been established that the Andorians are supurb hand-to-hand fighters. These guys were just the thugs of the week.

Going into a little bit of continuity argument, if they are going to re-write the whole bloody universe then I think they should add some detail, instead of..."Ok we need an enemy of the week." There was nothing. They were cardboard villians, even Combs couldn't pull it out of the fire. I chalk it up to bad writing as he has proven himself an actor that can really play good villians (Weyoun, Brunt and Agent Danbers.)

As with all other eps this one was all sizzle, no steak.

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Originally posted by prophetsteve

Now as to the Andorians, I can only say that there is no on-screen reference to first-contact with the Andorians and almost no information on them in canon Trek. So as long as they refrain from the cardboard-villian portrayl I cannot complain. Like I said in my thread, they had me suckered for most of the episode, only to force me to change my mind at the last minute. I liked the episode.

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I guess I must have missed something. What was it in the last few minutes of the ep that changed your mind?

Well for what it's worth I would be remiss if I failed to point out that the Andorians were one of the charter members of the UFP. SO maybe that counts for something.

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I guess I must have missed something. What was it in the last few minutes of the ep that changed your mind?

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For one - the Andorians were right. The Vulcans were being all shadowy and sly and violating treaty. And after everything, the Andorians didn't hold a grudge - they seemed surprised that a "Vulcan client race" would help them. And they accepted, acknowledging of the debt they owed Archer.

Ended much better than Klingon first contact.

Secondly - Those events made me look back on the rest of the episode. Think of it from the Andorians view. They are certain there is an array in the monestary but have never been able to find it...obviously they are being pressured to find it. When they do another search, suddenly an alien "warship" arrives with a Vulcan military officer and some of her "lapdogs". To a monestary?

The Andorians are passionate and despirate - of course they let their emotions get out of control.

Now thats not saying I agree 100% with the portayl. I think they were a little to evil evil evil at times but most of that was just trash-talk. All they really did was rough up a couple of humans - a lot less than the Klingons did during the "Klingon War" of DS9. So I can forgive a bit of the cardboarding of the Andorians.

For me the problem was not the demonizing of the Andorians, it was the demonizing of the Vulcans. But then again thats my main peeve of the series to date...

Guess I didn't miss anything after all. Pretty much new the array was there from the first it was mentioned and when the "monk" went with them armed it was verified...No surprise, like I said they need to come up with imaginative writting. Cardboard plot, cardboard villians...Cardboard show.

I actually really like this episode.

LIke several people have said there is .5 of Star Trek episodes containing anything with the Andorians. I really like the way the Andorians where rep. (I think they were more Klingon then the Klingons have been seen in Enterprise) but they are also paranoid, that's a trait that is not ina major race. I really hope they do more with the Andorians, Maybe an ANdorian Crew member. They are one of the top five races that make up the UFP.

This episode also has major political fall out, that i hope they show, but i can image instead. A Human/Andorian fridendship, threating the parent/child relationship with the Vulcans. ( Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't they LIE in this episode?) It will be fun to see, that little seed in there, i could see how humans could gain major influence in starting a interplantary federation!!!!!!!!

I liked this episode. I dont know who the people pretending to be vulcans were, but other than that it seemd good. Weyune/brunt was cool too.
The antennae were in the wrong spots, but they were done well. And I like the big headed thing. Did it seem like they were going for a Ray Walston look (my Favorite Boothby).

Well if you consider how the Klingons changed from their inital appearence on TNG, (holy moley three Klingons beat up the entire security staff and nearly blew up the warp core vs 3000 Klingons are repelled from DS9 by Kira and Jake) Or how the Ferngi changed...in there first appearence they were hairless co-stars in a recent tim burton movie(any one seen Dirk diggler?) and in the end of DS9 they were smart intelegent and humanlike. (any one seen Dirk Diggler? again)

So by the end of Enterprise the Andorians will probably be green and have seances with Jon Edwards...humming peacful lullabyes to the cordial and freindly Vulcans.

When do the Vulcans come in the series. And why are the Romulans in charge of everything?


Well till Monkeys run the capitol...hmmm Nevermind

PAX
JLA

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Originally posted by Thundergod

When do the Vulcans come in the series. And why are the Romulans in charge of everything?
PAX
JLA

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HA! Very nice. :D :D

I guess I'm in the minority here, but the more I see the show the harder it is to convince myself I'm watching Trek.

(shrug)

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Originally posted by Phantom
It has always been established that the Andorians are supurb hand-to-hand fighters. These guys were just the thugs of the week.

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Where was this established Phantom?

This is 200 years before TNG 200 Years I say! That is a long friggin' time and a lot can happen in 200 years. In 200 years Americans went from slaughtering native americans to attempting to police the world for human rights....thats a big change...

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Originally posted by Captain Zymmer

Where was this established Phantom?

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-"Journey to Babel"
-there is an episode of Voy where Chakotay says he "feels like he's gone 10 rounds with an Andorian"
-An Andorian was one of the fighters in "The Gamesters of Triskilion"
-Not to mention a "violent and passionate people" are usually good with their hands in a fight.

I know there are others, but can't think of them right now.

I agree, Azar Kel , that things can change. I think people are thinking that Andorians should have been shown in a more positive light. I admit they were at times a little carboard-class evil, but by the end I had a better understanding where they come from.

I look at the Klingons of TOS - except for John Calicos portrayl, mostly Klingons were in the TV series and movies a bunch on conquering megalomaniacal thugs. It really wasn't until STIII, TNG, and STVI that they were retconned into the noble warrior.

I think that right now Andorians are in their "TOS" phase. No doubt in the years to come, the series will flesh out their culture and history more. I hope.

Thundergod, you hit the nail on the head with the Vulcans/Romulans comment. That simple statement summed up my feelings. Vulcans aren't Romulans although they share common ancestry. The attempt to have a "Rommie" like race in Enterprise is nice but keep away from the established races.

When I look at the future forming of the Federation I don't see problems with the Andorians joining, I see a problem with anyone puting up with the the Vulcan's crap.

It hasn't even been one season yet and I wanna orbital bombard the Vulcan homeworld :D

Had a night to sleep on my thoughts of the episode.

Overall, I have enjoyed "Enterprise" but been a tad disappointed in the writing, wanting something more. Despite me being a Trekkie most of my life (all my mom's fault, plopping the toddler Dan in front of the TV for Star Trek while she made dinner...), I've really had no "continuity issues". I suppose that comes from many blows to my "personal continuity", like discovering the classic Trek didn't take place in 2207 like FASA-Trek asserted... Or that the Romulan Wars weren't between the Federation and Romulans (a common assumption before TNG...) So I've been able to watch "Enterprise" without getting too hung up on "canon" or "continuity". The blows to "canon" I've seen on the show seem to actually be blows to long-standing "assumptions", like the date of First Contact with the Klingons.

That said, what about last night's episode? I really enjoyed it. I have no problem with the portrayal of the Vulcans. To be honest, they seemed to me to be less than fully trusted at the time of TOS. Think about "Balance of Terror" - look how fast suspicion fell on Mr. Spock once their appearance was revealed. Would there have been that much suspicion if they looked human?

In some ways, I suspect humans of the 22nd century feel like a 20th or 21st century developing country when faced with countries like America or the U.K. - a perception of a smug superiority. While the more developed countries don't feel that way, they feel more like "Look, why don't you trust us? We've been through this before." And they are worried about these primitives - "We've got to keep an eye on them - they are one revolution away from a government which will turn on us". Mistrust on both sides, and in both cases partially justified. Yet for a true alliance to form (i.e. the Federation) that mistrust will have to be put aside. And even by TOS that mistrust is still there a little - the Federation of TOS is a heck of a lot less united than that of TNG.

And what I see this episode illustrating is that mistrust. The Andorians are a violent, emotional people. The Vulcans are a pacifist, logical people. Of course they don't trust each other. The Vulcans probably feel perfectly justified keeping an eye on them. And the Andorians were right to suspect the Vulcans of snooping. By the time of last night's episode they were super-frustrated, knowing the Vulcans were up to something but unable to prove it. This no doubt brought out the worst in them. How would America react if it "knew" a certain Mosque in the Germany were hiding an anthrax factory but unable to prove it, despite repeated searches?

I'm going to watch the episode again - I don't know if the Vulcans ever technically lied about the snooping equipment - they kept claiming the monastery did not have any high-technology - but they could easily have, in Clinton/Obi-Wan fashion been telling the truth from "a certain point of view". "You said there were no sensors in the monastery!" "Well, duh, that surveillance equipment is not part of the monastery". ;)

In any case, the actual strucure of the episode "felt" right to. It had a nice amount of action but not senseless violence. It had the crew of Enterprise acting intelligently. It had Vulcans and Andorians acting in a way which, while I might not "approve" of, I certainly understand. I really enjoyed the music - a nice hint of an eastern, perhaps Tibetan, feel to it. I also liked the look of the sets. The catacombs were neat and felt less like "random caves" and more like the rarely-used passages that they were. A nice amount of misdirection - since Vulcans are "good-guys" I was open to the possibility they were snooping but didn't think they were. I though the Sacred Chamber held Katras - indeed, when I saw the vases and urns in there I thought my suspicions were confirmed.

I also liked the signs of Archer taking what could have been a disastrous First Contact and instead planting the seeds of friendship between the Andorians and Terrans. An instance of the two powers speaking together will likely have quite a bit of leverage against the Vulcans diplomatically, making them harder to dismiss out of hand. And if the Romulan War breaks out in a few seasons, I can see the Andorians coming to the aid of Earth, further sowing the seeds for the Federation.

By way of comparison, Dan's episode ratings, on a A-F grading system. (Subject to change on his personal whims... :D)
Broken Bow: B+
Fight or Flight: B-
Strange New World: C+
Unexpected: C
Terra Nova: B-
Andorian Incident: A

I've tried hard not to like Enterprise, but have been unable to do so.

I thought that "The Andorian Incident" was excellent - quite possibly the best episode so far.

I also liked the fact that the Vulcans are shown to be sneaky, underhanded, and filled with a sense of superiority regarding other less technologically-adept races. I REALLY like that. I don't think that that is a Romulan trait at all. The Vulcans ARE technologically superior and (in their own eyes) morally superior as well. I get the feeling that, as time goes on, the Vulcans will come around when faced with the "illogial, emotional, yet surprisingly effective behavior" of humanity and the other core UFP founding races.

Sure, I thought the episode was somewhat predictable (like the Vulcans would have a problem hiding something like that from an "inferior" race!), but I thought that the Andorian characterization was exceptional, particularly by Jeffrey Combs.

The Andorians were certainly a bit too Klingonesque for my tastes, but I thought that it all played out quite well.

I give this episode an A-.

mactavish out.

Phantom,

Archer and Trip ambush one of them in the control room. It took both of them to hold him down, and it wasn't looking good for them, which is why I was hoping T'pol would get to the gun.

Trip grabs the Andorian in the Prison Room, and gets shrugged off like he was a gnat. Archer tried his damnedest to stop the guy, and was getting thrown around like a rag doll. Good thing Reed was there with his gun.

Compare this to the Vulcan guy in the end. Archer one punches him.

I think the Andorians gave a good accounting of themselves.

My feeling on the "Vulcans Lied" thing is that most of the monks probably didn't know what was going on. There was only the one younger "monk" who had any idea about what's going on.

So, the monks themselves weren't lying about it. The young Vulcan never said there wasn't anything. It was a lie of omission.

Truely, it's not our TOS Vulcans. Like Klingons aren't the TOS Klingons, and the Romulans aren't the TOS Romulans.

Oh, as a tactical note, why didn't Reed and the security guys shoot out through the holes, then trigger the explosives. Heck a couple of those "Stun Grenades" mensioned in last weeks episode could have really turned the tide.

I know, I know, then the Andorians couldn't have ran down into the catacombs, and led Archer to the Secret Base. Sigh.

But, still, for once, I wish the Security Chief actually used good tactics. I know, I know, none of them ever do.

Ah well.

Alex

Azar Kel.
Think of the leopards spots.

Yeah we took out Jeronimo...We wanted his land.

Now there is no more free land to claim, so we need to watch what land is left. Make sure we can put up a Mickey D's.
So we police teritories that don't belong to us.

Do you think the displaced Native amrecan children who watched their parents murdured by US cailvary feel more human rights than the two Vietnamese children who watch "Bravo two" come and burn their village. (Bravo two is a fictional company for you old timers who might have actually been in Nam)

Of course "they" blew up the twin towers.
And we aren't policing them yet.

Whew, lucky for the afghananistany kids. (they are really busy policing themselves for Human Rights)

Herb cane

Personally I think that it is human pheromones that they are trying to avoid. Perhaps they have an enhanced effect on Vulcan females... or maybe I just have a thing for ice women.

Andorians are stated in both the FASA history and LUG History to have had an "Andorian Star Empire" with several colonies at the time of first contact with Earth.

Of all the episodes so far this is my favorite... but again, that may be because I've always had a thing for Andorians. I think their moving antenne were especially well done.

But of all six eps so far I think this was the most reasonable and consistant. I hope that in future eps we have more on Andorians and begin to flesh them out as a people.

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Originally posted by Phantom
-"Journey to Babel"
-there is an episode of Voy where Chakotay says he "feels like he's gone 10 rounds with an Andorian"
-An Andorian was one of the fighters in "The Gamesters of Triskilion"
-Not to mention a "violent and passionate people" are usually good with their hands in a fight.

I know there are others, but can't think of them right now.

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Phantom they never say Andorians are skilled in Hand-to-Hand, they simply make reference to the fact that they like to fight (or are used to fight) and are tough.

I am Irish, my people have a reputatin for bar fighting, we do not have a reputation for being skilled hand-to-hand combatants. You see the difference?

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Originally posted by Phantom


-"Journey to Babel"
-there is an episode of Voy where Chakotay says he "feels like he's gone 10 rounds with an Andorian"
-An Andorian was one of the fighters in "The Gamesters of Triskilion"
-Not to mention a "violent and passionate people" are usually good with their hands in a fight.

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"Journey to Babel?" What indications from that episode indicate that the Andorians are superior martial artists? If you are referring to the fight between Kirk and the "Andorian," that's the same Andorian that wasn't an Andorian. And, besides, if that were really an Andorian, Kirk took the guy out with his ass!

Going ten rounds with an Andorian isn't exactly an indicator that they're superior hand-to-hand fighters. They may just punch hard.

Uhura was also a combatant in "Gamesters."

And, "violent and passionate" doesn't necessarily mean they're all good in hand-to-hand combat.

I think to say because a couple Andorians have been shown or mentioned to be good in hand-to-hand combat indicates that all Andorians are superior martial artists is an over-generalization and definitely goes to making Andorians not only a cardboard species, but a cookie-cutter species.

Quack!

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Originally posted by Azar Kel
This is 200 years before TNG 200 Years I say! That is a long friggin' time and a lot can happen in 200 years. In 200 years Americans went from slaughtering native americans to attempting to police the world for human rights....thats a big change...

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Problem seems to be that Trek fans are forgetting that the universe is not static. Well...the Trek one tends to be. Everything always winds up being status quo.

I liked this episode; I liked the Andorians -- they fit closely with what I would have pictured, since they're only just ore civilized now (going with the S John Ross sourcebook); and overall I've liked the series...and I really expected it to suck.

As for the Vulcans: I always figured they would be arrogant pukes. This is before they had to learn to work with other people. Shows they and the Rommies aren't that different under the ideological claptrap. I like that a lot.

Ok, don't know about FASA Andorians, but LUG stated that the Andorians colonized only 8 systems, one of which they abandoned because of the disappearance of the original colony. Seven colony systems constitues an Empire? Only seven planets are listed as inhabited. Empire, sorry don't see it.

The scene in "Journey to Babel" where Kirk is attacked...He didn't seem too surprised that he was getting a bit thrashed by the Andorian (and before someone mentions it I know that the Andorian was an Orion, however the characters didn't). I realize this might be an assumption, but it was that scene gave me the interest in the Andorians that I have.

I think the Andorian combatant showed "a little more skill" then Uhura.

Chalk it up to "we agree to disagree." I much prefer what was done with the Andorians in DS9 (Avatar), don't agree 100% but the writer who did the Avatar books showed a little more deductive skills and imagination in the development of her Andorian then the writers of Ent showed in last nights ep. Why not go from where she ended...Oh, forgot Para. doesn't consider the novels to be canon, even when a good idea comes and slaps them in the face.

Heck, nations have called themselves Empires with far less cause... Japan considered itself an Empire long before it left its islands.

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Originally posted by Phantom
Ok, don't know about FASA Andorians, but LUG stated that the Andorians colonized only 8 systems, one of which they abandoned because of the disappearance of the original colony. Seven colony systems constitues an Empire? Only seven planets are listed as inhabited. Empire, sorry don't see it.

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Not to nitpick, but if a political entity wants to call itself an "empire" or a "kingdom" or whatever, who's to stop them? It's not like there are any hard and fast rules for what does and does not constitute an empire.

If I said I was the emperor of my office, and that the boundaries of my office comprised my empire, what would be the problem with that? Say another person called their office their "kingdom." Then, say the two of us established a protocol that stated in part that we would respect each other and refer to each other by the titles we establish for ourselves. If a third party (let's call them the Hegemony) joined our little federation (for lack of a better term), we'd call them whatever they wanted to be called, out of respect.

To sum up my rambling, if the Andorians want to call their territory an Empire, let 'em. :)

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Originally posted by Phantom
Ok, don't know about FASA Andorians, but LUG stated that the Andorians colonized only 8 systems, one of which they abandoned because of the disappearance of the original colony. Seven colony systems constitues an Empire? Only seven planets are listed as inhabited. Empire, sorry don't see it.

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Something tells me the writers of Enterprise haven't been referring to the Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek core rulebooks. Maybe I'm just crazy.

And, to use Japan as it's been tossed around frequently on this discussion: they not only were limited to a single planet, but they didn't even control the entire planet. I don't believe that an empire is defined as having to comprise X planets.

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The scene in "Journey to Babel" where Kirk is attacked...He didn't seem too surprised that he was getting a bit thrashed by the Andorian (and before someone mentions it I know that the Andorian was an Orion, however the characters didn't). I realize this might be an assumption, but it was that scene gave me the interest in the Andorians that I have.

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Didn't seem surprised? So, because he didn't seem surprised is evidence that Andorians are great hand-to-hand fighters? I think he was more concerned with not getting his ass kicked (which is probably why he used it as a weapon) that with looking surprised. And, I really don't think he's going to see an Andorian kicking his butt, and think to himself "Oh my...all Andorians must be such great warriors because this one guy is beating the snot out of me."

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I think the Andorian combatant showed "a little more skill" then Uhura.

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Well, you didn't say that originally. You just listed their presence as an indicator of superior martial prowess.

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Chalk it up to "we agree to disagree." I much prefer what was done with the Andorians in DS9 (Avatar), don't agree 100% but the writer who did the Avatar books showed a little more deductive skills and imagination in the development of her Andorian then the writers of Ent showed in last nights ep. Why not go from where she ended...Oh, forgot Para. doesn't consider the novels to be canon, even when a good idea comes and slaps them in the face.

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Well, first of all, she ended over two hundred years in the future. And, considering anything canon doesn't really mean anything. How many episodes of Voyager invalidated previous information?

I don't think anything from Avatar was invalidated by the events portrayed in last night's episode. And, I also believe Shar is also an atypical Andorian.A lot can happen in 200 years. I mean, Klingons had lumpy foreheads, then 100 years later they were nice and smooth and Cuban looking, and then in less than 50 years they were lumpy again. Things change.

Quack. Quack!

A stellar Empire would, I think since there is nothing to use as proof, would be considerably larger (ie many hundreds if not thousands of planets) then a terrestrial Empire. To use the Empire of Japan as an example, true they did not come anywhere near owning the world...But they did control a very large piece of South Pacific and Asian real estate, pretty good for a nation of a few rather small islands.

The one thing you have to remember in this case (if stellar/interstellar Empires existed) is "scale." If one country took over another country (a single country only) would that have been considered an Empire in Earth's history...Barely a page in the history books. If that country took over half the continent it was on would that be considered an Empire. Most assuredly, YES. So is a culture that has colonized a few worlds considered an Empire in Trek (shrugs). It is a matter of perspective I guess, you say "yes". I say no.

I liked the episode.

Some of you guys are knit picking this whole Andorian thing to much...

All the early ST "official" stuff I have and have seen plus damn near every RPG to have come out has stated that it was generaly understood that the Andorians had colonized sevral other systems by the time they met Humans...

You don't have to have 500 planets to be an "empire"....if they want to call themselfs an "empire" instead of a "union" or "republic" or what ever...who gives a rat's a$$...it still works canon wise.

Now one thing I thing they need to do is toughen Archer up a bit...let's face it, Kirk would have [by the end of the episode] beat the stuffings out of at least one Andorian:D

Hmmmm....

I feel compelled to point out that this tendency to cite examples from RPG source material is a bit...well....pointless....um....as is most of our quibbing. Berman is going to do what he wants in order to keep Paramount happy and that is about that....the other option is that we go without Trek on the tube and that isn't a very appealing alternative...

as for my comment on native americans and "human rights"---
I tend to get a tad sarcastic and jaded sometimes but it doesn't come through very well in text...I have no brief for the US government now or then...well not entirely true, I think the Pres is doing an admirable job given current conditions...

thats all for now

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phantom
[B]A stellar Empire would, I think since there is nothing to use as proof, would be considerably larger (ie many hundreds if not thousands of planets) then a terrestrial Empire.

Just a question but didn't the Klingon Empire call themselves an Empire? I can call myself Kel of the Joppatown Empire and make my roommate Khyron of the Joppa Imperial Guard, doesn't mean that we have an empire they're just words....

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Didn't seem surprised? So, because he didn't seem surprised is evidence that Andorians are great hand-to-hand fighters? I think he was more concerned with not getting his ass kicked (which is probably why he used it as a weapon) that with looking surprised.

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Oh my... I think Salinger just pulled a Kirk's ass, something I've not seen in a long, long time... Where's Manno? :D

(Apologies to those who have no idea what I'm talking about, it was a running joke on the original trekrpg mailing list...)

Ahhhh...I do miss those days back on the Trek mailing list. Those were the days.

Quack!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Azar Kel
[B]

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Originally posted by Phantom
A stellar Empire would, I think since there is nothing to use as proof, would be considerably larger (ie many hundreds if not thousands of planets) then a terrestrial Empire.

Just a question but didn't the Klingon Empire call themselves an Empire? I can call myself Kel of the Joppatown Empire and make my roommate Khyron of the Joppa Imperial Guard, doesn't mean that we have an empire they're just words....

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I guess it would only matter when the Aztec Empire, British Empire, French Empire or Roman Empire stopped by to stomp on the Empire of Joppatown and show it what true Imperial Power is.

Well, the Empire of Japan was humbled by the British Empire in the 19th century. That's pretty analagous.

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Originally posted by Phantom


I guess it would only matter when the Aztec Empire, British Empire, French Empire or Roman Empire stopped by to stomp on the Empire of Joppatown and show it what true Imperial Power is.

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Yah good point, only problem is that all of those Empires are long dead. Some day I too will be no more......heh