Conversion from Icon to ?

Hi all,

Is there anything out there in any type of format that considers the switch from the Icon system to the D20 system by WOTC?
I am wondering since I was considering if decipher/WOTC are bringing out this new version of the Star Trek game in Another format, they will need to make a conversion option available to switch between old & new system anyway...

Why not include the D20 system as an option to switch to, to make it easier for D&D ppl to switch over.
Also whats the deal anyway with them not putting the game into the D20 format..

D12? why D12? Must be some license related crap.

anyway...pls give me some help on switching to an alternate system if you know it...

It probably wouldn't be too tough to come up with a D20 conversion system but as much as I like D20, I don't think every game in the world has to be a d20 game. One problem with a d20 game would be that we would lose the character creation system since the d20 license expressely forbids "describing the process of creating a character". This would probably also apply to a conversion system as well (although, as I am not a lawyer, don't take my word for it).

Star Trek is probably one of the few properties that can be successful without a tie-in to D&D, although of course it likely still won't sell as well as a d20-based product might...but it will sell to me :) and probably a lot of others as well.

Allen

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Originally posted by AllenS

Star Trek is probably one of the few properties that can be successful without a tie-in to D&D, although of course it likely still won't sell as well as a d20-based product might...but it will sell to me :) and probably a lot of others as well.

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I beg to differ. There are a lot of people who do not like the d20 system, and for whom not using d20 is a feature rather than a failing.

I'm a firm believer that the system should match the game, not the other way around. Trying to squeeze Trek into d20 format is asking for trouble, IMHO. Sure, it could be done, but there are many other worthwhile systems out there that would be even better suited. The only thing d20 has going for it is lots of marketing dollars.

I should also point out that many game companies are still growing without the d20 system: AEG's L5R and 7th Seas properties are pretty hot right now, GURPS is fairly strong, Kenzer is releasing HackMaster using the original AD&D system, just to name a few.

Frankly, I find the Icon system pretty well ideal for Trek gaming.

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Originally posted by reimero


I beg to differ. There are a lot of people who do not like the d20 system, and for whom not using d20 is a feature rather than a failing.

[snip]

I should also point out that many game companies are still growing without the d20 system: AEG's L5R and 7th Seas properties are pretty hot right now, GURPS is fairly strong, Kenzer is releasing HackMaster using the original AD&D system, just to name a few.

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Just thought I’d chime in here. You mention a few companies and non-D20 games.

AEG is in the D20 bed more than most companies:
They’re making Series: Archer and the Farscape RPG, both D20 games.
L5R – material retooled and now appears in the new Oriental Adventures (D20) book.
7th Sea – Announced a D20 conversion is coming.

GURPS continues to sell based off of their sourcebooks, not the core system, which isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. SJG is hoping the new “Powered by GURPS” licensing will resolve this (it won’t), an idea that was sparked by the D20/OGL arrangement. While SJG may not be making D20 games, they’re definitely trying to benefit from the culture that the D20/OGL is responsible for.

As for Kenzer using the AD&D system, Wizards certainly didn’t care much and licensed an outdated system that, beyond nostalgia, not many people play anymore. Everything I’ve read (and I’ll grant you this is far from scientific!) is that HackMaster is a niche’ game in a niche’ market that people are buying as more of a gag than to actually play.

The number of companies that don’t make D20 games, or benefit from the D20/OGL, is small list indeed. Everyone’s jumping on to make D20 products that sell well for the first month of release in order to finance their non-D20 ventures.

Holistic Design is releasing D20 Fading Suns in an effort to attract new gamers to the line and sell their other sourcebooks. This can only be A Good Thing ™.

Saw this on EN World today:

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I was contacted by WotC's Public Relations Manager, Don Williams, who wanted some market research statistics. I figured these might be useful and/or interesting to others, so I am posting here what I sent him. Note - I have not counted free products (so any companywith only free stuff so far available is counted as 'no product yet') and I have not counted magazines, counters or other accessories not strictly d20.

d20 Publishers with products for sale: 56
d20 Publishers without products yet: 28
Total number of currently available d20 products: 184
Rate at which I'm contacted by new publishers: 1-2 per week.

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I agree with Allen's assessment of the d20 market. (Nice to see you around, Allen!) :)

In that case, we're all doomed. I can't stand the D20 system.

On the other hand, I'm one of those guys who can calculate THAC0 in his head ;)

If the d20 lines of publishers help them generate some decent sales figures and provide them with more money for their non-d20 lines, like Don said that's great!

I don't see anything wrong with taking advantage of a cash cow. And if there are a few gems among the flood of d20 products out there, that's good for me too since I play D&D. :D

Fiery Dragon, Atlas Games and Necromancer Games make some of the best third-party D&D modules around -- daresay I, even better than Wizards' modules! :D And a company like Atlas certainly won't abandon their non-d20 games. In fact, the RUNE RPG (by Robin Laws of LUG, Feng Shui and scads of other games and novels fame), that was just released this summer, rocks on toast! No d20s in that game.

Steve

Everybody makes d20 products for the same reason most of the software written is for Windows: it's what the industry giant has thrown its weight behind, and like in the computer industry, the industry players believe d20 is the key to viability.

I'm not going to argue that the d20 system is becoming a juggernaut. I simply think that in its efforts to become a more universal system, it abandoned a lot of the charm and fine detail other systems offer. You can't put a square peg into a round hole, so WOTC compromised with an octagon, you know?

Seriously, though, I think that in developing a "universal" system, they abandoned certain key aspects of role-playing games. I don't mind learning several different systems. In our group, we use AD&D, 2nd Ed AD&D, Twilight 2k, Cyberpunk, L5R, West End Star Wars, Icon, Bond and Cthulhu systems. No one is expected to know them all, it's up to the DM to explain how to roll what. (My group is just now figuring out how the Icon system works.) What's nice about all those systems is that you really feel like you're playing different games according to different rules. Punk and Cthulhu are dangerous with a high body count, and the system reflects that. D&D has a moderate chance at being killed, and the system is appropriate for that. 7th Sea is geared more toward "heroic" play, so the duels are longer and more entertaining, and much less lethal. As I see Trek, combat is supposed to be swift and (potentially) dangerous because violence is supposed to be a last resort (if you're Federation.) By changing systems, you're also changing the probabilities that things could go right or wrong, and those probabilities are the very core of what makes a game unique.

I guess the point I'm not making very well is that by trying to fit a game like Trek into a "universal" system like the d20 system, you take away from the game's uniqueness and charm. Sure, you can still roll tests, but I really like the varying degrees of difficulty modified by varying degrees of success. My players love it.

As I see it, the system shouldn't define the game. At best, the system should help the Narrator tell the story and the players play out the story as effectively and faithfully as possible.

Well said, Reimero.

I see d20 as I see the Empire. And I've got Leia's attitude towards it: The more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.

I'll never play a d20 product again, but that's my own personal preference and nobody is a better or worse person for playing it. I don't believe that uniformity, conformity and monopoly is better. I'll never purchase a d20 product, because that's how I'll choose to vote against it - with my dollar. I don't care if they write the Ultimate Sourcebook, Ever. I won't add it to my collection of games. d20 Traveller is the first incarnation of Traveller I won't buy (and I'm renown in 3 small countries for being a Traveller Hound).

Personally, I think we need Icon-To-Toon conversion rules! ;)

What I would like to know is if I make a conversion to the d20 system, would I be allowed to use it in a limited environment?

I do not wish to publish a book or make money anyway... I just need my players to be able to play this game in the d20 system..

Sorry to all you ppl out there that hate d20, but I just love it for its simplicity.

Help pls oon the first line....

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Originally posted by Anomaly
Well said, Reimero.

I see d20 as I see the Empire. And I've got Leia's attitude towards it: The more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.

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Now that is funny as hell. :D :D :D

I don't dispute your opinion, I happen to think that it is a good system (for D&D and games like it) I don't understand why everyone is jumping on the wagon. One of the things I liked about the gaming world was all the different and imaginative systems that were out there.

When D20 first came I thought the OGL would be a good idea, you a few games with the same system, as long as the players have tried one of the games you could run all without having to teach new rules. I thought that would be handy, but now with everyone in the industry going over to the "dark side" (sort to speak) I think the gaming world is becoming very boring..."We are Wizards your individuality will service us. Prepare to be assimalated!"

The D20 system does have merit, I just don't want use the same engine in all the games I play.

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Originally posted by silvercloud
What I would like to know is if I make a conversion to the d20 system, would I be allowed to use it in a limited environment?

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If it's just your group, you can do pretty much whatever you want. As long as you don't publish it I doubt that anyone will care.

If I understand the licensing correctly, anyone can write an original game for the d20 system. WOTC put it in the public domain. What you may not do without permission is publish an adventure for D&D, Star Wars or any other WOTC property without their express written consent.

Having said that, in this case, I don't see why you couldn't convert it for your own personal use as long as you don't publish the conversion rules. See, WOTC bought out LUG, so they own the rights to all the Icon Trek stuff. Oh well, can't win 'em all...

Personally, I never bought into d20. I have always been a strong GURPS loyalist. To me GURPS will always be THE universal system, period. I have also taken a liking to Big Eyes, Small Mouth™ anime RPG system. Simple, easy to use and very flexible. I, for one would like to see an Icon to BESM conversion (for a somewhat selfish reason: So I could run a Star Trek/El Hazard adventure). :D

I've never played GURPS, but I stand by my original opinion: universal systems just aren't as fulfilling as game-specific ones :)

Having said that, I'm not above borrowing elements from other games that I think handle certain aspects of games slightly better (for instance, I happen to like Dark Conspiracy's automatic-fire rule, in which you roll d6 equal to the number of rounds you fired, with each 6 being scored as a hit. Not to get into a debate about it, but once you factor in recoil and other moving targets, there's a lot of randomness, and more importantly, you get that lovely combination of easy-to-understand rules plus the "is-that-thunder-or-are-you-rolling-damage" effect :D )

So I'm opinionated :D

reimero,
I wouldn't worry too much about a "universal" system key aspects of role-playing. The universal system concept is not a new one, and generally what happens is that a company tends to use one game engine for several RPGs. In fact, out of the list og games you current play, all of them were systems designed as part of a company's universal rules system. AD&D was reused in early TSR RPGs like the orignal Boot Hill and Meptamorphis Alpah/Gamma World; Twilight 2K was used again in Traveller: New Era; The basic system used in Cyperpunk was also used in Mekton; The system in L5R, with some changes was reused for 7th Sea; The d6 system from West End's Star Wars RPG was resued in moderately altered form for the DC Heroes RPG, Hecules & Xena RPG and others; the Icon system was reused, although for only a limited release for LUG's Dune RPG; and The Basic Role-pLAying System used for CoC was used by Chaosium for most of thier RPGs, including RuneQuest, Ringworld, ElfQuest, and the Strombringer/Elric line (BRP in many was was the first universal RPG system). The rules for the Bond RPG were reusued in a couple of Victory Game's board games, including the James Bond Assaut Game, and a WWII board game.

The D20 concept isn't necessarily a bad one- it allows many companies to profit off of the D&D cash cow, and even introduce thier products to a new market. The only problems I can see are if companies drop thier other products to exclusively support thier D20 line. So far, that hasn't happened. Comapnies liek AEG and Chaosium are still supporting thier own systems in addtion to D20.

silvercloud,

If you want to convert from ICON to D20, you probably want to pick up a copy of WotC's STAR WARS RPG. The D20 STAR WARS rules are a bit different from the D&D version, and there is a secotion on convert characters from West End's D6 system that can be helpful.

Also, at the AEG site are conversion rules from thier L5R system to the new D20 Oriental Adventueres rules. While the L5R rules are substantially differenet from the ICON system, there are enough similaritlies to assist in conversion of stats-especially for attributes..

Basically, what you want to do is look at the character's skills and how they tranlate. For instance, a character with a 2 attribute and 3 skill in ICON has about a 75% chance of making a moderate (7) test. A moderate (7) test in ICON is probably around a DC 15 in D20, so a 75% chance equal around a +10 modifier. You will want to try to convert the task scale around a bit to see what provides the best fit from one RPG to the other.

Once you do this to all the character's skills, you can figure out what class(s) the character has and "reverse engineer" the character's level that way.

Then you will need to do something similar for the TREK equipment, like starships and phasers.


This is a bit or work, but isn't too difficult. Mostly number crunching and checking to make sure the results make sense.

Good Luck.

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Originally posted by Highway Hoss
I, for one would like to see an Icon to BESM conversion (for a somewhat selfish reason: So I could run a Star Trek/El Hazard adventure). :D

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http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/...0%26%20Movies/

In my experience I've been able to convert d20 to just about anything I wanted to run. That said I tended to wedge the system into the setting, rather than vice versa, by stripping the system down to only its base components and removing all the crap that ruins DnD for me (i.e. classes, levels, rewriting the attributes and most of the combat rules, etc.)

Depending on how much work you want to do a d20 rewrite would probably work well for Trek, especially if you adapt over a better character creation system like the one found in LUG Trek, CODA, or even something like Shadowrun (another system I once considered for a non-Starfleet oriented Trek game). That and I reccomend removing levels, partly because I hate them and partly because I don't think structured advancement is at all reflective of the broad concepts of self-improvement Star Trek embraced and preached.

This is all a lot more work than it sounds like, though, so its really dependant on the amount of time you have to put into it. The last system I built after ripping d20 apart was a mod of their Star Wars (borrowing a lot from CODA, particularly in character advancement) took a month of writing around my work schedule to finish to playable, the more advanced stuff came later.

Hi, I'm new here.

I've been playing the ICON system of Star Trek.

Have to say I don't much care for it and from what I've seen I don't much care for the CODA system either.

I was wondering, does anyone here or has anyone here tried using TSR's Alternity rules or White Wolf's rules for Star Trek?

I'm in agreement that D20 is crap for the most part and is good for D&D and that's it. (Although I'm a firm believer that there was no need to replace AD&D 2nd Ed)

Any help would be appreciated.

One more thing, does anyone have the LUG Next Generation and DS9 books available for download on the net? Mine are packed away and I would much rather have them on my PC for quicker reference.

Thanks.

Hi, Silverstreak.

Welcome to the Trek-RPG.net Forums. Unfortunately, Board policy forbids posting links to sites which post significant portions of the copyrighted rules sets - even the out-of-print versions - in excess of what is allowed under Fair Use. Yeah, it's a pain in the butt, but it's the rules.

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Originally Posted by Silverstreak

I was wondering, does anyone here or has anyone here tried using TSR's Alternity rules or White Wolf's rules for Star Trek?


Thanks.

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Their is information on using Alternity for Trek. Go to TrekRPGnet Directory, there is a link for that site there.

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

Hi, Silverstreak.

Welcome to the Trek-RPG.net Forums. Unfortunately, Board policy forbids posting links to sites which post significant portions of the copyrighted rules sets - even the out-of-print versions - in excess of what is allowed under Fair Use. Yeah, it's a pain in the butt, but it's the rules.

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Question: Just rules or all copyrighted material?

i.e. ICE's Lords Of Middle Earth Vol 2 plagarized in Hall Of Fire e-zine. Plagarized the right word? Is this okay here?

Clarify before error made.

I'm not familiar with what's in the E-zine, so I can't comment on specifics. I'm also not a copyright expert. Plagiarism involves the passing off of another's work as one's own - an adaptation of an adventure from one system to another, so long as the original is acknowledged, is not plagiarism. It may or may not violate copyright, but generally speaking the policy in the past has pretty much been restricted to wholesale copies of an entire text or a major portion thereof. Most gaming boards and 'zines (electronic or paper) make use of some copyrighted material, especially ones devoted to licensed subjects. I personally wouldn't sweat too much about the Hall of Fire stuff - in most likely falls within Fair Use.

Take my Star Trek Universe page as an example: I have incorporated several screenshots and scans of stills from the shows, a few images from sources like Star Trek, the Magazine, usually altered somewhat, and completely redrawn deckplans from some of the old FASA adventures. These images constitute a very small portion of my page, and an even smaller portion of the original source material, and fall well within the Fair Use doctrine. There are sites out there which have scans of entire gamebooks or blueprint sets, which is not Fair Use at all.

There are special cases, of course. Palladium Games is aggressive in "protecting" their IP and will go after you for so much as posting your own character in their game format (regardless of Fair Use), whereas Far Future Enterprises will allow you to post huge chunks of their material so long as their canned copyright notice is appended. Guess whose policy I prefer?

It all comes down to a judgement call - first on the part of the poster, and secondly on the part of the Mod Squad. If in doubt, ask (messages on the Boards are OK, E-mail or PMs are even better).

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

Hi, Silverstreak.

Welcome to the Trek-RPG.net Forums. Unfortunately, Board policy forbids posting links to sites which post significant portions of the copyrighted rules sets - even the out-of-print versions - in excess of what is allowed under Fair Use. Yeah, it's a pain in the butt, but it's the rules.

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How about this then, can someone email me and let me know or possibly share the files that way?

I really do own all the DS9 and TNG books and the Andorian book, it's just that I'm 1500 KM from home going to college and all my books are packed away at home.

Thanks,

Scott

[QUOTE=SilverstreakI'm in agreement that D20 is crap for the most part and is good for D&D and that's it. (Although I'm a firm believer that there was no need to replace AD&D 2nd Ed)[/QUOTE]

well I guess that means I should quit running my playtest of WWE Know Your Role, the Babylon 5 RPG, and Spycraft because they all use the d20 system and even though my players all LOVE these games, they obviously won't work because the d20 system can ONLY be used for D&D.

That is an inaccurate generalization. D&D is one VERSION of the d20 system. The D20 system can be used for ANY genre. Just strip out the tropes for D&D and insert tropes for new system/genre...voila! It works. I have very successfully run d20 system games (VERY enjoyable games) for science fiction, westerns, pulp adventure, espionage, horror, and yes, pro wrestling.

YOU may not like the d20 system, and that's fine. But you might want to avoid generializations like "D20 only works for D&D", because the moment ANYONE points out an exception, it pretty much trashes the whole statement.

Oh..and I QUIT playing D&D for years because of 2nd edition and it's burdensome collection of overpowered "kits" and company-trashing endless supplements (there are reasons TSR went under and the "Let's put out way too many books and divide up our sales among unprofitable campaign settings" 2nd edition was one of them.)

Allen

Of the d20 systems, Babylon 5 and Stargate are two of my favorites. In my opinion 3.x was a huge improvement over any other version of DnD allowing versatility without necessarily creating a huge-glut of power-mongering which essentially killed the joy of DnD for me in 2nd edition. It went from being a role that one played in 1st edition to a roll that one used in 2nd.

d20 can certainly be used for a number of systems besides Fantasy but care must be taken to shape the use of those mechanics to the setting.

B5 and Stargate are two pretty excellent examples of doing just that.

Regards,
CKV.

Perhaps they are, but in my opinion I can't see why someone would play B5 and Stargate anyway. No offense, but to me B5 is like trying to play in the Star Wars universe, the main story was told and involves very specific people, leaving nothing for anyone else.

Then there's Stargate, didn't really care for it.

Glad you enjoy your games, but again, I feel the D20 system is garbage.

How about this then, can someone email me and let me know or possibly share the files that way?

That's strictly between you and them. There's a considerable difference between a private communication like e-mail and posting in a public forum.

As for the "Who would play D20?" issue, please keep it civil. I don't like D20 myself - I gave up on D&D in 1980 - but if someone wants to play it, or play in the Babylon 5 or Stargate SG-1 universes, or even commit such atrocities as putting pineapple on pizza or watching animé, it's their right. Let's face it, you're not going to change their mind, so why bother?

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

or even commit such atrocities as putting pineapple on pizza

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*sigh* ok, you got me. I confess! I regularily put pineapple on pizza and I love it! There you have it! You will never get me alive !*runs away frantically* :p


But to get back to topic, I infact do not see a reason to convert the ICON stuff to any other system. It has a nice modular design, has enough realism to reflect that of the TV shows and its fast and not too complicated. I also think its balanced between the different character classes and allows good character development.

For those who prefer D20 *shudder* I think they will be quite pleased with the CODA system, because I always felt its a mixture of ICON and D20.

In general I prefer no-level systems for my RPGs, especially "modern" ones and therefore D20 would be no option for me. Since Trek also involves many variants of high-tech, I think the WOD system cannot simulate that enough. However things I have worked with before the ICON system are WEG's D6 system ( they used it for Star Wars ) and their Masterbook system.

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Originally Posted by Anomaly

The more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.

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So true. In fact there is a bunch of RPG's I would have loved to try out but did not because they were D20. Its not that I did not try. I played Star Wars D20, I played Engel D20 ( from a German RPG company, but got covered by White Wolf as well ) but I never got to like it - the opposite is true. While this is of course not universally true for all RPGers ( only for the good ones ;) ) it simply prevented me buying a lot of games I would have bought if they had not been a D20 incarnation.

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

How about this then, can someone email me and let me know or possibly share the files that way?

That's strictly between you and them. There's a considerable difference between a private communication like e-mail and posting in a public forum.

As for the "Who would play D20?" issue, please keep it civil. I don't like D20 myself - I gave up on D&D in 1980 - but if someone wants to play it, or play in the Babylon 5 or Stargate SG-1 universes, or even commit such atrocities as putting pineapple on pizza or watching animé, it's their right. Let's face it, you're not going to change their mind, so why bother?

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You're right about the D20 thing, my apologizies, I did not mean to offend anyone.

*chuckle* Everyone has their preferences and unfortunately whether something works or not will be very much dependent on personal opinion.

When it comes to Trek, I prefer ICON over all else but if CODA works better for someone else and their vision of how the STU should be mechanically represented, go to town or in some cases people still prefer FASA all the more power to them...it's all in the eye of the beholder and what they are looking to get from each game and its system.

Though nostalgia may play a role in that as well. :D

*shrug*

Regards,
CKV.

Yeah, I guess that's how it goes.