Starfleet ranks

I was making a list of about 2 dozen admirals when I ran across something odd. The ranks and pips don't match.

Whats know is that they follow the naval ranks in that they go rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and the fleet admiral being the highest rank one can attain. Anyway, going on naval ranks (starting at commador which the federation stopped using sometime before TNG)

1 pip = Commandor
2 pip = Rear Admiral
3 pip = Vice Admiral
4 pip = Admiral
5 pip = Fleet Admiral

The majority of admirals seen in the TNG era are 2 pip admirals, making them rare admirals. Then there are 3 pip admirals which have included Holt, Kennelly, Nakanara, Necheyev, Paris, Ross, Shanthi, and Toddman. With the exceptions of Necheyev and Shanthi all of those are listed in the Encyclopedia as Admiral, which isn't odd, as it's like refering to a Lt. Commander as Commander. Necheyev is listed as Vice Admiral...and it is also stated that in 2370 she was promoted from Vice Admiral to Fleet Admiral this bypassing the rank of Admiral. As for Shanthi, she is listed in the Encyclopedia as a Fleet Admiral, yet she only has 3 pips and fleet admiral should be 5 pips.

Now the way I would explain it is that the background color on the pin is differant for Admiral and Fleet Admiral but that got shot down with Admiral T'Lara who is a 4 pip Admiral.

Anyone out there understand TNG senior ranks better then I do that can offer some advice on this or something?

Kyle.....always finds problems

Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with Coda's System and Mechanics, so mopved to Star Trek Chat. :)

As to the quesiton asked, in the US Navy, it common to address any Admiral (from Rear Admiral, Lower Half, all the way up to a full Admiral) as "Admiral". So the forms of address used are not really a good indicator of actual rank.

In the case of someone being referred to as a Fleet Admiral, but only having three pips-in-th-box, it was most likely just a mistake. It's not like they were really meticulous about getting rank insgnia right. Just ask Tuvok or O'Brien... ;)

You can be a Fleet Admiral but still have the rank of Vice Admiral. Fleet Admiral is also a position, its the CO of a whole fleet. Necheyev is also Fleet Admiral, of the 16th fleet, like Admiral Shanti.

Commodore is a rank out of fashion in Starfleet in TNG. Probably because it went out of fashion around the 60s.

Any admiral can be in charge of a fleet -- commodores were what are called fleet captains, captains commanding a fleet.

The rank of Fleet Admiral is reserved, I believe, or the CinC, Starfleet.

Fleet Admiral is a wartime-only rank in the US Navy, our last one died in the 60's I believe.

Commodores were also the same way until the Navy abolished the rank all together (replacing it with Rear Admiral, lower half) in the 80s.

Today, "commodore" refers to a captain (by rank) who commands a squadron of ships...this is probably Roddenberry's basis for the use of the term "fleet captain." That is, unless you believe the rumor that he was concerned that foreign naval traditions weren't being given proper exposure, and in the sense of fair play, decided to add the rank of kapitaen zur see to include our foreign brothers. :rolleyes:

(Okay, so that was a little tongue-in-cheek.)

On the Fleet Admiral thing, a lower ranking admiral could be called a "fleet admiral," but not "Fleet Admiral." One denotes position, the other, rank. It's a somantic difference, but an important one. :)

Thanks folks, I think I understand it now!

Kyle

Personally I keep the rank of Fleet Captain in my games, well ones that I have planned to run anyway. It is different, helps separate Trek from the real world. No offense to the American contingent, but I can't stand that "upper and lower" concept for Admirals. Just sounds silly to me.

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Originally posted by Phantom
No offense to the American contingent, but I can't stand that "upper and lower" concept for Admirals. Just sounds silly to me.

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As opposed to, say, the British 18th century equivalent - under which mid-grade Admirals were designated "Of the Blue," "Of the White," and "Of the Red" to seperate them by seniority?

"commodores were what are called fleet captains, captains commanding a fleet. "

Nope. A Commodore and a fleet Captrain were both seen in the same episode or TOS. In most navies, a Commodore is the lowest flag rank. While we haven't seen a Commodore in Trek since TOS, there's been no canon statement (i.e. on-screen) that the rank was abolished, so I continue to use it in my campaign.

Fleet Captain is more problematic. It is likely a Captain in charge of a fleet action, similar to some usages of the term Commodore. In my campaign, I use the insignia worn by Sloan when he was impersonating a Starfleet officer investigating possible misdeeds on DS9 - a standard four-pip Captain's insignia with a bar beneath it.

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Originally posted by Phantom
Personally I keep the rank of Fleet Captain in my games, well ones that I have planned to run anyway. It is different, helps separate Trek from the real world. No offense to the American contingent, but I can't stand that "upper and lower" concept for Admirals. Just sounds silly to me.

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I'm an American and the concept of Rear Admiral, Lower Half and Rear Admiral, Upper Half is EXTREMELY silly. I've talked to people in the U.S. Navy who want to change it back to Commodore, and I'm with them on the idea.

Whatever era of Trek I run games in Commodore will always be used. Not a Fleet Captain or Rear Admiral Upper or Lower Half to be found anywhere.

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Originally posted by Tilarium
I was making a list of about 2 dozen admirals when I ran across something odd. The ranks and pips don't match.

Whats know is that they follow the naval ranks in that they go rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and the fleet admiral being the highest rank one can attain. Anyway, going on naval ranks (starting at commador which the federation stopped using sometime before TNG)

1 pip = Commandor
2 pip = Rear Admiral
3 pip = Vice Admiral
4 pip = Admiral
5 pip = Fleet Admiral

The majority of admirals seen in the TNG era are 2 pip admirals, making them rare admirals. Then there are 3 pip admirals which have included Holt, Kennelly, Nakanara, Necheyev, Paris, Ross, Shanthi, and Toddman. With the exceptions of Necheyev and Shanthi all of those are listed in the Encyclopedia as Admiral, which isn't odd, as it's like refering to a Lt. Commander as Commander. Necheyev is listed as Vice Admiral...and it is also stated that in 2370 she was promoted from Vice Admiral to Fleet Admiral this bypassing the rank of Admiral. As for Shanthi, she is listed in the Encyclopedia as a Fleet Admiral, yet she only has 3 pips and fleet admiral should be 5 pips.

Now the way I would explain it is that the background color on the pin is differant for Admiral and Fleet Admiral but that got shot down with Admiral T'Lara who is a 4 pip Admiral.

Anyone out there understand TNG senior ranks better then I do that can offer some advice on this or something?

Kyle.....always finds problems

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If you use the current Royal Navy system Admiral of the Fleet is substituted for Fleet Admiral.

Chello!

From another standpoint, Fleet Captain could be used for a captain who commands more than a ship, but less than a battle group. Say maybe the commander of a Frigate flotilla (3 small ships)? What about someone who works a staff position at a SB or Fleet HQ that requires a Commodore's security clearance, but not the command authority of a flag officer (and the person doesn't have the time in service to be a flag officer).

Or maybe a fleet cvaptrain has been to the Admiral's school, but isn't ready for promotion yet? Maybe a training grade sorta like Midshipman?

Maybe an admiral's aide or commander of the an admiral's flagship? He might need some extra rank to pull on other captain's in the squadron (thus a brevet rank)?

Falling back to SFB/PD and FASA Trek to test my theory against other waters (knowing that LUG Trek doesn't):

Prime Directive never really answers what a Fleet Captain is. They put it on the chart between Captain and Commodore. In the Federation S/B, they show the rank stripes. FC has the 4 stripes of a captain, but with a 5-pointed star between stripes 2 and 3. They also show a pip system; FC has the 4 pips of a captain, but with a star (5 points) btween pips 2 and 3.

On a side note, the Commodore only gets a single 5 pointed star instead of any pips. They do not show any rank stripes (or pips) for the other flag officers. Maybe they were having trouble figuring out the flag pips as well! lol

FASA Trek doesn't even have Fleet Captain on teh rank chart. Commodore is, though. No pip system (TOS, remember); 2 gold stripes for commodore with area between them solid silver. Only 1 admiral rank listed. 2 gold stripes with solid gold between them.

Edit: I forgot some stuff.

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Originally posted by Cessna


As opposed to, say, the British 18th century equivalent - under which mid-grade Admirals were designated "Of the Blue," "Of the White," and "Of the Red" to seperate them by seniority?

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Ah, no. What I meant was the system used by the Commonwealth now (and by the American Navy)

Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

I use the term Fleet Captain as more a postion rather then rank, like Field Marshal or Sgt. Major. A postion granted the most senior man in grade.

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Originally posted by Phantom


Ah, no. What I meant was the system used by the Commonwealth now (and by the American Navy)

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Oh, I understand - I was just pointing out the fact that many nations' navies have managed to come up with some fairly strange sounding rank titles...

(Although "Admiral of the Red" or other such titles sounds kinda cool, in an anachronistic sort of way...)

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I use the term Fleet Captain as more a postion rather then rank, like Field Marshal or Sgt. Major. A postion granted the most senior man in grade.

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Ah, but sergeant major is an actual rank in the US Army and Marine Corps (and in the Royal Army/Marines, IIRC), not just a position (however, yes, there are positions called the Sergeant Major of the Army and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps).

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Originally posted by Sea Tyger


Ah, but sergeant major is an actual rank in the US Army and Marine Corps (and in the Royal Army/Marines, IIRC), not just a position (however, yes, there are positions called the Sergeant Major of the Army and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps).

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You are right, but I think you get my point.;)

OTOH, in "Menagerie", Kirk says, "...when he was promoted to fleet captain." If he was a position he would have been "assigned."

Ok, ok, nit picky, I know! ;)

From what I surmise, both Fleet Captain and Commodore were starfleet ranks common in the TOS era (and earlier). But it seems they have fallen out of use (but not necessarily abolished, as Owen can still argue that point).

And yes, Christopher Pike, Kirk's predecessor to Enterprise, was a Fleet Captain in rank by the time of "The Menagerie" two-part episode.

Ok, my interpretation :D

Note that DecTrek ranks Fleet Captain above Commodore and specifically equates it to Rear Admiral (one star), while the Star Trek Encyclopedia has them the other way around, and specifically categorises Fleet Captain as a Line rank, while Commodore is Flag.

On that basis, I think I'd go with the Encyclopedia, and swap the two in the PG.

With that out of the way, what do they represent, and what happened to them?

In TOS, we generally saw Commodores in charge of bases and some starships and the like, Fleet Captain just gets mentioned as a higher rank than Captain. Both are gone in the TNG era.

I reckon this has a lot to do with the way things have changed in the two time periods.

In the TOS era, Captains were often out of touch with SFC for a long time, and often had to make decisions with no input from superiors. However, it would occasionally be necessary to group ships together, and then you need a single commander. This is where the Commodore comes in - it's basically a rank for those Captains who nominally have command over two or more ships in an area (kind of a squadron commander), and have the power to make Federation-affecting decisions in their region. The Fleet Captain is the lowest rank of SFC itself, and specifically designates those staff officers having direct contact with the starship Captains. They are effectively the liaison with SFC. They may be based at SFC or in starbases, but as flag officers, they never have their own command responsibilies, they'd never command a starship or base for example.

By TNG's time, communications are much faster. The rank of Commodore is no longer necessary as Captains can liaise directly with their Fleet Captain, who is often based in a local system. When a squadron commander is needed, one Captain can be designated senior by the Rear Admiral, or the Admiral can take charge in person. The Fleet Captain rank is renamed Rear Admiral to make it clearer that this is a flag rank.

I'm also working on the common assumption that a line officer holds a physical command (vessel or base), a flag officer does not. When aboard another officer's command, a flag officer defers to the Captain in all operation issues, maintaining only a strategic point of view.

Does that make sense? I've tried to fit into Trek rather than the real world, so it may conflict with all those USN ranks :D

Given that I'm working in the TOS movie period, this all becomes rather important, so please comment!

In my personal opinion, I see the fleet captain as a "first among equals" rank that is one step away from Flag Officer.

A fleet captain would still be a captain in the grand scheme of things (I can't remember what the FC insignia looked like off hand), but have positional authoritiy over all other captains.

This rank is reserved for senior captains who do not necessarily qualify for promotion to flag rank (i.e., there are no flag positions available), but warrant a promotion or positional authority as the commander of a "squadron" or other semi-permanent or permanent task force.

In this way, you could say that Fleet Captain would be a "half step" between captain and commodore. The closest example in the US Navy would be the non-flag officer squadron commander. They're still captains, but they authority over all COs in their squadron. These sqadron COs are what the Navy calls "commodores" now, much in the same way that a ship's captain who is a lower rank is still called "captain" aboard his ship.

Commodores in the 1960's sense of the word are 1-star admirals, and I believe that this is what Gene was looking at when he made the ST rank. In this case, they are Flag Officers in all respects, and would hold greater command authority over all ships/officers under their command.

Now, some Commodores may manage their area of responsibility (be it a squadron, starbase, fleet, etc.) from the deck of a starship, meaning that they command the flagship as part of their flag officer duties. I believe Starfleet would be very reluctant to allow this practice on a fleet-wide scale, given that it would put it's most competent strategic officers too often in harm's way. But there are a few (Commodore Matt Decker, for example), and they are truly the best and the brightest.

Most commodores, though, manage their AOR from a starbase or other command location, providing guidance to starship captains as needed. Areas that aren't covered by a commodore would be covered directly by Starfleet Command.

Just my take.

Has there been any discussion on how many command echelons Starfleet has from one single ship to Starfleet Command facilities at San Francisco? Is there regional commands responsible for Starfleet operations withing their area of operations?

What about Type Commands like they have in US Navy (Yes, SF is no USN, but TypeComm seems to be quite practical echelon in chain of command).

I always thought that FASA did a good job with the Starfleet chain-of-command, and would probably go with something along those likes.

My personal opinion, from starship to C-in-C, would go something like this:

Starship
Squadron/Task Force CO or Starbase HQ
Fleet CO
Chief of Starfleet Operations
Commander-in-Chief, Starfleet

I think, given the nature of Starfleet and its fleet composition, you really wouldn't have a "type" command, as it is in the US Navy...i.e., Destroyer Squadrons, Logistics Groups, Cruiser-Destroyer Groups, etc.

However, I do see a "project management" command, i.e., a command that oversees the development and technical management of each class of vessel, as a component of the Advanced Starship Design Bureau.

In my campaign, a commodore is the senior captain of any squadron of starships that is not commanded by a flag officer. It's a position, not a rank. If there is a flag officer exercising overall command, his flagship is commanded by a flag captain (another postion, not a rank). I don't use the term fleet captain, but I suppose it could apply to the chief of an admiral's staff.

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Originally posted by Sarge
I don't use the term fleet captain, but I suppose it could apply to the chief of an admiral's staff.

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Now there's a thought I hadn't had. I still think it's a rank, though. :p

The Australian Navy still uses the rank of Commodore...it comes after Captain, and before Rear Admiral.

Just thought I'd mention it...

I think most of us knew that since both Canada and Australia are both territories of the UK, but self-governing.

Ahh, we are both members of the Commonwealth. Not territories. ;)

In the LUGTrek books Fleet Captain is also above Comodore, which is a line rank here. But as far as I know, Commodore was dropped in favour of Rear Admiral lower half. I always took the Fleet Captain rank as something for those you do not have the education and training or who do not want to become a Flag Officer, as well as an administrative neccessity. There are thousands of good captains out there, but there are simply not enough position for Admirals to promote them all, so they become Fleet Captain, actually only a acknoledgement of their achievements and no real advance in rank or authority.

BTW the rank seems to be dropped out quite early, as Kirk was never promoted to Fleet Captain but became Admiral in the movies. ( and the other way around ;) )

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Originally posted by Phantom

Ahh, we are both members of the Commonwealth. Not territories. ;)

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My bad. Thanks for the correction.

There was a 4 pip Admiral in Ds9 for the signing of Bajor's entry to the Federation. Was the episode Rapture?

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Originally posted by REG

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

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Hmm, big difference actually! Just and FYI, the British Commonwealth is basically a "fellowship" of former British Imperial possessions. Most of its members recognise the Queen as head of state but maintain their own parliaments and governments on the British model, and their own armed forces. They often try to work together on international and trade issues. I'm not sure but I believe Australia is on the verge of declaring itself a republic and electing a president. The UK still maintains a few overseas territories (administered by a governor from the British government) such as the Falklands, Gibraltar and Bermuda, but they're getting few and far between!

Back on-topic, I was rereading the LUG Original Series book, and it does a decent job of describing their take - a Commodore is basically a fleet-wide "in-the-field" troubleshooter (a "super captain"), while a Fleet Captain is the lowest rank of the Admiralty. I still think I might reverse these though :)