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In the Player Guide it says that most characters get two actions without penalty. If most get two then how do you work out how many actions you get. For the life of me I can not find where it says how many actions you get. There does not seem to be an action allowance section on the character sheet either. So do all characters just get two actions penalty free?
As far as I understood, everybody gets 2 action free. However, some characters can get more than 2 actions (thanks to some abilities) without penalty.
I have one question though : I couldn't understand whether the penalty for multiple action is +5 TN per each supplementary action (that is, +5 for the third, +10 for the fourth, etc), or +5 per action for the whole (that is, +10 for the third and +10 for the fourth if 2 supplementary action are declared) ?
The example on page 244 has the penalties accumulating per supplementary action (+5 for the third action, +10 for the fourth). Perhaps not completely realistic, but I suspect the point was to not discourage players too much from taking supplementary actions if they feel the need.Quote:
Originally posted by C5
As far as I understood, everybody gets 2 action free. However, some characters can get more than 2 actions (thanks to some abilities) without penalty.
I have one question though : I couldn't understand whether the penalty for multiple action is +5 TN per each supplementary action (that is, +5 for the third, +10 for the fourth, etc), or +5 per action for the whole (that is, +10 for the third and +10 for the fourth if 2 supplementary action are declared) ?
"Most" characters means anybody who has not chosen an edge like Quick Shot that lets them take certain types of extra actions at a reduced penalty.Quote:
Originally posted by Rixx Telar
In the Player Guide it says that most characters get two actions without penalty. If most get two then how do you work out how many actions you get. For the life of me I can not find where it says how many actions you get. There does not seem to be an action allowance section on the character sheet either. So do all characters just get two actions penalty free?
Or the "Responsive" professional ability (Starship Security Officer, tier 3).
There's a couple of Tier 3 professional abilities that grant free extra actions, yes. I hadn't thought to look in those sections of the book when I posted my last reply. :DQuote:
Originally posted by Calcoran
Or the "Responsive" professional ability (Starship Security Officer, tier 3).
Still, I have a few (theoretical) problems with this rule. See, on one hand:
- it does not discourage players from taking multiple actions indeed.
- in fact, it positively encourages player to take multiple actions, "just in case".
Consider a player who tries to take down a dodging neural parasite or whatever. The player would be well inspired to go: "Hell, I try to shoot the blasted thing 5 times!" thinking 'of course at -10 and -15 the 2 last shots have a very low chance to hit, but still, if I miss the first ones or if that thing is tougher than expected, I might come up with a double 6s on those, and since it doesn't cost me anything ...'. He'd have a point of course, but there's not much drama in there. Besides, it slows the game down quite a bit.
However, on the other hand:
- This way, "reaction" (i.e. not declared beforehand) dodges and parries can be inserted seamlessly in the flow of actions. Of course, if the multiple action penalty is apppplied as a whole, fitting reaction actions into these is a bit more awkward.
What do you think?
The PG does suggest that you limit players to double their action allowance.
I would probably allow them to exceed that limit with dodges and parries though.
Actually there are some reasons that discourage "machine-gun" phaser fire.
1) The energy drain on the weapon.
2) Missed shots have to go somewhere. Generally firing a very powerful weapon, mulitple times, with little control is a very good way to kill your buddies, hit the control panel, etc.
3) The mutlti-action penaltiy applies to other types of actions, like dodges. So while the character might be takeing 5 shots and hpoing to get lucky, the opponent might take one shot, and the character will never dodge it with a -20 penalty.
Actually, about point 3, it's not that simple, tonyg. In your example, the character relies on "reaction" dodge. So of course, if he's acting first he'll have a -20 penalty on his dodge roll, which is bad of course ;).
Now any careful character will declare a dodge too. Like Dodge, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. 0/0/-5/-10/-15. Even if the character acts first he just defers the roll till some opponent shoots him with a successful roll. Hence still no real penalty for taking multiple actions.
Well that's how I understand page 248-249 (defensive actions, dodge).
Of course points 1 and 2 are valid ones, but they're a bit difficult to use on the fly in the heat of a combat ... well, IMGM'sO, that is.
As I see it, the intent of the system is that it works like this:
Following your example, you might declare dodge, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot (0,0,-5,-10,-15). If you get the initiative, then obviously no one is going to be attacking you, so the dodge gets deferred to later.
As you did not take the dodge, each action in the line is moved up one position, so now your first two shots are at 0,0. However, let's say, that after you have taken three shots, someone finally shoots at you. Now, your deferred dodge comes into play, but, as it is now your fourth action, it carries a -10 penalty (that of the fourth action). It makes sense if you think about it; wherever the dodge is inserted in the action line when a character finally needs it, that's the penalty it recieves. If it had been inserted after the first shot, the dodge would not have carried a penalty, but the second shot would have a -5 penalty.
This is how I used to rule multiple actions in the Icon system, and its pretty similar to how multiple actions work in Storyteller (as seen in Trinity and Exalted) as well.
This doesn't make much sense, does it? See, the rules state that a dodge roll is valid for all people shooting at you during the same round.
Consider character 1 takes 2 actions against 1 opponent who is slower than him. Shoot, shoot, shoot, then dodge at -10. Now character 2, same actions, against 2 opponents, one faster and one slower. Thats dodge, shoot, shoot, shoot. With what you suggested, character 2 has much better chances to dodge (and actually do what he intended to do) than character 1 (although character 1 is faster and facing less opponents). Strange, isn't it?
This is the reason why I considered that the multiple actions multiplier applied to the order the actions were declared in rather than the one they took effect in. You can consider it as the way the character focuses on some actions. Dodge shoot shoot shoot means that the character is very intent on dodging, then shooting (and hitting), then (lower priority) shooting again. Even if the dodge takes effect later, this means that the last shoots were less precise because the character was on the lookout for attacks he might have to dodge.
Well, that's how I see it, but I must admitt it had me puzzled for a while too ... any help there, Doug, Don?
Actually, Cal, it makes perfect sense.
Just because somone is faster than someone else doesn't do much good with a dodge, because they won't actually be dodging until they get attacked. You can't dodge tomorrow's attack.
So if you go first and take a couple of shots, you not spending as much time or attention on your defenses.
Likewise if someone wasn't planning on dodging, but does a reaction dodge, they must take attention away from thier other actions, and are less prepared to dodge, suffering the penalty to all actions.
All right, you can't dodge tomorrow's attack, but if you dodge today's attack, this counts for tomorrow's attack? Is that very logical? :D
So basically, a fast character will have to delay his actions till he gets shooted at, then act, this in order to get a decent dodge. End effect: same problem as stated 3 posts earlier ... unless slower players decide to delay too, which will prompt even slower players to delay ... so no one ends up doing much ... oh my what have we started! ;)
Joke apart, there are ways to make machine-gun like multiple actions while still being able to dodge an incoming shot ... and this bothers me.
Ah, but the faster character declaring the shoot shoot shoot action is probably going to take out his opponents first, so he's already got the advantage. He's not disadvantaged hugely by taking a penalty to dodge later on.
Your example, Calcoran, still works under my technique. The first character's action emphasis is on shooting their opponent - that's their focus - so taking a penalty to dodge is understandable, whereas the second character is focused on dodging, and trying to get off a couple of quick, inaccurate shots at the bad guys if they can.
Think of it this way - who dodges better: the guy who is shooting at the enemy and then gets shot at and has to scramble out of the way in the nick of time, or the guy who has dodging as his first priority and just shoots over his shoulder as he's weaving away down the corridor?
Bah, ignore my post and read tonyg's - he said everything I meant, and much more concisely! ;)
Point taken, Dredd and Tonyg. Anyway, the delay action enables fast players to act like slow players (while letting them chose just how slow they act, which is a nice thing IMO :) ), so this is a moot point I guess.
In the end, this doesn't solve my main problem: I find multiple actions too easy to take, and not very "trekkish".
We had the same problem in Icon - last time we played, my Andorian Security Officer (who won the initiative) stunned five pirates who beamed onto the bridge, simply by declaring five actions.
We found it was balanced by the fact that if you got hit with a phaser shot (dodging is hard in Icon!) you were either stunned or dead, 99.9% of the time.
Because of this, we tried very hard NOT to actually get into personnel fights, as the outcome was so dependent on initiative results under that system.
Thus, we found that the rules system actually encouraged a state of play where personal combat was rare in our campaign, and so the Trek (TNG era) feel was enhanced greatly, at the end of the day. :)