How large is a fleet and who gets to be in it?

A couple of SF organizational questions:

1) How large of a fleet/ stff etc would normally be assigned to a space station during a wartime situation. Basically how many ships could i expect to have at a strategic station that holds major importance and will have ships dedicated to its defense.

2) Im thinking about sending a group if ships on a long-term exploration mission. Something on the order of 5-6 years with minimal contact with SF. No a voyager clone, but something planned out and prepared. How many ships would be reasonable (im planning on having several go for resupplying and also to give the players mutiple roles to fill) and what classes would be deemed appropriate?

I'm not sure about 1 so I'll just deal with question 2.

A good number from one of David Weber's books is six pure science/scout vessels, backed up by whatever your universe uses for a light carrier battle group.

That lets you present a peaceful image on first contact, but if things go wrong the calvary can easily be called in.

As far as # 2, I'm doing something similar and using: 1 explorer, 2 light cruisers, and 2 small scout/science ships, along with a handful of runabouts for "PC missions". A bit more back up than the "lone starship" but not so much that the players can risk a fight in someone else's home space.

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TK

Not knowing the complete strength of SF, I would have to say that if your station is in a major flash point of a war a taskforce of anywhere from ten to twenty vessels, plus aux.'s would be a good guess. Though all the ships would not be at the station all the times...some would be out patrolling the front and on other duties. It depends on which theory you subscrbe to...A hugh SF...or something smaller. Myself, I think that SF is quite small, relatively speaking, all though the DW SF was always trying to scrap up one more ship to hold the line.

I liked the battle shots, visually, that were in the, but never agreed with the number of SF ships in them. The CG artists use the cut & paste options way too much. The loss of 39 ships at Wolf 359 was a staggering blow to SF...Now all of a sudden they have ships coming out of the wood work?

Anyway, it is your game.

WE've had fleets running from a 50 ship task force up to 300 ship wing. I figure the number depends on the job the fleet has. Like a standing fleet would probably have smaller numbers than a mobile fleet; and mobile fleets would break into divisions or wings to spread their presence.

Quote:

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Originally posted by qerlin:
WE've had fleets running from a 50 ship task force up to 300 ship wing. I figure the number depends on the job the fleet has. Like a standing fleet would probably have smaller numbers than a mobile fleet; and mobile fleets would break into divisions or wings to spread their presence.

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Demonstrates my point fairly well. Qerlin seems to believe that SF is a "hugh" organization, which is fime. I on the other hand don't see SF having the resources for a 300 ship wing. Even the Romulans, who use ship centuries, can't always come up with many ships at times.

It just depends how you want to run your game.

Usually the fleets of Starfleet operate in small groups (up to 6) to form squadrons. Squadrons form into fleets, in Starfleet Battles, fleets usually had 20-40 ships in them. A battle group in the modern navy usually has about a dozen ships, this is formed around a flagship(CV, or BB), escorted by cruisers(CA,CL), with a screen of picket ships(DDs, DEs).

ok, ill redirect my original post a bit since the ideaass have helped me flesh some things out.

Im plannignto send my PC group, which currently has 3 ships that we rotate between depending on the mission, likes of the players etc,which allows everyone, including me to play multiple roles. We have been fleshing out a possible new sector of space to explore and im thinking of running it as an unsupported exploration, meaning they are still within a few months of Starfleet suport but wont have anyone else to bail them out in any immediate crises except the fleet they take with them.

Here's my task, if you were an Admiral assigned to the most choice exploration assignment, leading this group on such a mission, what would you try to requisition in terms of ships and/or personnel. I'd like so good rationales for thee selections before i put my fleet/crews togther since ill be adding numerous ships that the players have never encountered before but will obviously interact with if the situation arises. If it makes it simpler, you could use the Battlestar Galactica idea as a starting point.

Justice

A Galaxy or Sovereign class as flagship.
Intrepid or Nova class as scouts.
Maybe a Sovereign, Galaxy, and an Intrepid class trio would be enough. State of the art systems and upgrades for a Galaxy class would put it on more equal footing with Sovereign class. Intrepid good for scouting, Galaxy as back-up (more firepower), and Sovereign to make any adversaries re-think their plans. All ships are Explorers. May have civilians on Galaxy class; Scientists, technicians, etc.

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

Quote:

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Originally posted by Antonsb214:
A Galaxy or Sovereign class as flagship.
Intrepid or Nova class as scouts.
Maybe a Sovereign, Galaxy, and an Intrepid class trio would be enough. State of the art systems and upgrades for a Galaxy class would put it on more equal footing with Sovereign class. Intrepid good for scouting, Galaxy as back-up (more firepower), and Sovereign to make any adversaries re-think their plans. All ships are Explorers. May have civilians on Galaxy class; Scientists, technicians, etc.

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Thats kinda like putting all your eggs in one basket!

Remember as of 2375, there is like 2 Sovereigns and maybe 12 Galaxies.

I'd say a Intrepid, Excelsior, and a 4 nacelle ship. Plus an assortment of Danube and Talon ships.

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

Nebula's a good choice.

I think when addressing this topic you have to consider what sort of fleet you are talking about, as well as it's location of deployment. According to the LUG Price of Freedom book, there are two types of fleets. Mobile and Static. Considering the sheer size of the Federation and its borders you have to consider the population base to draw from, but also the extremely strict standards employed by Starfleet. Did you ever consider that it takes a Betelgeusean coming from his or her homeworld like 2.5 years of standard warp speed travel to *Get* to Earth and the Academy? Talk about pressure not to fail out.

But back to the topic: Static fleets are usually assigned to protect key areas, and also include the smaller "sector" fleets. Extroplating a bit, I will make an assumption (Dangerous) that the task group at Wolf 359 was about two fleets worth, though perhaps not all the ships from either of those fleets. 40 ships able to respond in a timely manner to an attack on the "Core Systems". My guess is that a static fleet deployment is probably something like:
1 Explorer Class vessel, 4 cruisers of various types, 4-5 frigates, and then 10 other vessels of various specialities based on the needs of the area. The Explorer class vessel might actually be an older model, particularly in areas where there is little real trouble expected. This model would be used for Static fleets that respond to a broad area, like multiple sectors, as opposed to a Sector Fleet.

Sectors fleets, usually based around supporting a Starbase or a few outposts are probably even smaller, and I would guess sport at most a couple of Nebula or comparable craft as their big guns. An example might be: Two Nebulas, two or three refit Excelsiors, a couple of Oberth or similar size and mission profile vessels and two to four Saber's or similar sized vessels (if not Saber's then I would swap Frigates instead of Light Cruisers) depending on the size and strategic importance of the base.
In that example, I would presume this was a border sector as well, even less ships in areas far from any borders or with a very small Federation presence; too small and they are probably just supported by a Static Area support fleet or by vessels detached from a Mobile Fleet.

Moving on to Mobile Fleets, once again I think you need to focus on the "mission objectives" of this fleet. The 19th Fleet that the D was in focused heavily on Exploration/Contact and Threat response and if the episodes were any guide, basically cruised the borders from the beta quadrent edge of the Romulan/Klingon/Federation borders all the way out to the Cardassian DMZ. Of course, this is an *insane* amount of space to cover, realistically one trip down and back up should be several years and a full tour -- but TV never ever worried about internal consistancy as far as that goes so it's no surprise. Realitically, there should be enough mobile fleets to alot two per Major Power border and one per every other area of exploration or contestation.

In such far traveling mobile fleets, the make up should consist primarily of vessels that can handle long term isolation from other Federation support services, and that can handle a wide variety of encounters -- thus they should be Explorers and Cruisers almost exclusively with exceptions being made as per the above guideline.

The other type of Mobile Fleet would be a Strategic Response type... Fleets that can be sent to whatever area is being heavily contested or seeing alot of action, even in peace time, such fleets would break off smaller sections to deal with things like Piracy or Peace Keeping missions between minor powers. Such fleets probably have at best a single Explorer Class heavy hitter, or a single Heavy Cruiser, with the bulk of their vessels being Light Cruisers, Frigates and Escorts.

Okay, and from all of this you must additionalyl factor in the Need Psychology of the Federation at that time. Depending on when you set your game the philosophy of fleet deployment will be different. Pre-Borg contact, Pre-Dominion war you should see fewer vessels but of a larger size with more crew riding in one basket. The nature of the Dominion war in particular highlights the priority of many smaller vessels with small crew requirements.

As an example of this, look at the Saber class Light Cruiser...crew of 45. With a crew so small starfleet can reasonably give these ships to Lt. Commanders or Commanders instead of full captains...you only need to be an Ensign to be bridge certified for such a small ship. This means they can field more of these even with the strict entry and training requirements for Starfleet Academy.

For the "crew cost" of an Explorer you can staff 10 of these...and 10 Sabers in a battle can be more effective than one Nebula or one Akira. Certainly these vessels are as impressive for "Showing the Flag" or as capable for prolonged solo operation or exploration, but they are strong enough to require a concentration of opposing force to challenge, and they are *fast* as well.

So all that said, and it being mostly my personal opinion, I would say that there is no easy answer. You as the narrator need to give the nature of the fleet itself consideration to discern the size and vessel contigents in any fleet you may wish to use.

Hope that was more helpful than boring. Peace.

Well thats if you subsribe fully to the 20 odd fleets idea from PoF.

That simply isn't enough ships, only about 600 odd in peace time.

But they may have pumped them out for the War and recomissioned old ships


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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

I will agree with that . . . furthermore . . . even though those huge battlefleets are rather unrealistic when in less than ten years time 39 ships were considered a HUGE fleet . . . they are still canon. Thus a fleet has to be a large number. I would say in the Post DW era around 50 to 75 ships at most . . . for a HUGE battle fleet could be comprised of several fleets.

But also think of the Federation like the US . . . a HUGE industial jugernot . . . prior to WWII the US had a pitiful military . . . however, if the need araised they were able to pump out the most . . . and more often then not . . . the best. Furthermore . . . something like this would promp them to find new ways to staff this larger armed force . . . thus things like ROTC were created.

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"See Everything; overlook a great deal; correct a little." -Pope John XXIII

You can write off the 39 of 40 ships as just a local core fleet or just everything in the area that could get there on time much like in Redemption!

The fleets in DS9 were at the smallest 112 and at the largest 313. An average of 212 ships. And then there were atleast 10 of these! Circa 2120 active ships for DW!

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

First of all "Hi" to all from a new guy on this forum.

For the long-term exploration group I would go with a Nebula as the core ship. It's a solid explorer in it's own right and you could use the equipment module to hold some runabouts or additional supplies. Even with replicators you would need supplies and spare parts to keep 3 or 4 ships running on a prolonged mission. If you don't want to use a dedicated supply ship those would have to go somewhere.

A Nova class sounds like a good idea at first, but you have to consider that these are not very fast and certainly not build for missions lasting longer than a few months. If you absolutly want to include a Nova pair it with an escort. That way you could "park" the science ship somewhere (long term planetary survey, etc.) an still give it some protection.
Personaly I'd use a light cruiser instead with some extra scientific equipment and laboratories added.

A Norway class ship would be on my list as well. It's fast enough and could hold it's own in a fight, should the need arise.

Add a second Nebula or maybe an Excelsior and you should do fine.

Whatever combination you prefer IMHO you should go with ships that could work and survive independently from each other, should the group be seperated for any reasons.

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"To seek, to strive, to find and not to yield" - Alfred Tennyson

[This message has been edited by Lancer (edited 04-01-2001).]

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIR SIG:
Well thats if you subsribe fully to the 20 odd fleets idea from PoF.

That simply isn't enough ships, only about 600 odd in peace time.

But they may have pumped them out for the War and recomissioned old ships

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That's what I figured, SIG. That's why the Wolf 359 thing (where I think there were only 40 or so ships; could be wrong so don't flame me...) was a huge disaster. Then DS9 has buttloads rolling through the Dominion War; a lot of them older ships like the Excelsior. I figure they keep a lot of stuff sitting pre-positioned in mothballs 'til they need 'em, as well as turning out tons of new stuff.

Concerning fleet sizes and the Dominion war there is one DS9 episode that could provide usefull information. I'm thinking about the one where Sisko and some admirals are planning the liberation of DS9 from the Dominion (don't now the title - sorry).
In that episode they make a clear statement how many fleets will be involved and counting the ships that we actually see participating in the attack should give us a good idea how many ships are in those fleets.
Maybe somebody has this on video and could check it out?

If I remember it correctly in the same scene one of the admirals objects that using all those ships would leave the defenses of earth dangerously thin. Maybe that's the reason we see very large fleets on DS9 - Starfleet send many of it's "home defense" fleets to the front lines, thinking that they'd rather stop the war at the Cardassian border, even if it left some core worlds only sparsely defended.

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"To seek, to strive, to find and not to yield" - Alfred Tennyson

Yup, actually it aired just last sunday in France (that's how you can tell how backward we are concerning Trek in France, even Germany got their final DS9 season one and a half year ago or so) ... second part in 4 days now.

And you're right, it gives a lot of info about fleets, ships and so on ... from the top of my head, they indeed say that leaving only one fleet to defend Earth would dangerously weaken it, and at one point Garak complains because 10 or 12 ships could not keep on with the main force because of damages already received to propulsion (or so we can guess). Haven't taken time to count the number of ships though, even if the thought crossed my mind. I'll have a go this evening.

'Favor the Bold' & 'Sacrifice of Angels'

That is of course where I'm getting my figures from mostly.

* Dominion Fleet = 1254 ships

* Bashir says outnumbered 2 to 1

* Thus Federation task force is roughly 627 ships

* This we know to be 2 fleets (5th & 2nd, 9th was still another day away)

* Thus a rough fleet number of 313 ships

* From 'A Time To Stand' the 7th fleet is 112 ships; after a ambush only 14 survived.

*Thus taking 313 and 112, a average fleet value becomes 212 ships

* Now since there is atleast 10 fleets active in the DW, a rough amount of active/frontline federation ships is 2120

YMMV

PS. The 7th fleet may have been at low strength. The 7th and 10th took quite some beatings during the war.

Aswell the 5th and 2nd may have been bolstered with every ship in the area to combat the large Dominion fleet.

But considering that with the 9th fleet, they would have had close to 1000 ships vs 1254 (which they may have not known to be that large) and SF wouldn't send in a underpowered fleet barring emergency.

Then I theorize that a Dominon War era SF Fleet does indeed average around 300 ships and the few extras were whatever ships left in the area that were commandeered!

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

[This message has been edited by SIR SIG (edited 04-04-2001).]

Oh and using my revised figure of 300 ships per fleet then there could have been 3000+ federation ships in the war!

300 ships * 10+ fleets = 3000

The fleet info is taken from the encyclopedia. Interesting enough that in the 10th fleet write up they say; '...Tactical group of Federation starships formed during the war with the Dominion...'

This kinda indicates small 'peace' fleets and they group everything together into task forces during war.

1st: Not mentioned

2nd: Part of the Task Force to retake DS9

3rd: Defends Earth.

4th: Not mentioned

5th: Combat duty along the Vulcan Border. Later part of the Task Force to retake DS9

6th: Not mentioned

7th: 98 of 112 ships destroyed in the Tyra system. Suffered further losses while intercepting a Dominion fleet headed for Vulcan at the Tibor Nebula. Almost half of the ships that were left, were lost en route to Sybaron. Grouped to launch an offensive into the Kalendra Sector.

8th: Not mentioned

9th: Task Force of Federation and Klingon ships assigned to defend Bajor sector. Late participant of the battle to retake DS9.

10th: Defends Betazed, caught out of position on a training exercise.

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

Well, that's if you assume that all fleet numbers are "filled" ... there could very well be no 8th fleet for finstance, for some obscure historical reason (like reading Terry Pratchett too much or something).
Actually, I just watched the episode again, and it seems to me that when they say "ships", they also count the smaller craft (size 2 or 3). The dominion fleet seems to have plenty of hidekis and dominion attack fighters (beetle class?), and about one third of the federation fleet seems to be talons (on screen we see 4 galaxies, 5 or 6 ambassadors, 7 excelsiors, 8 mirandas, 2 akiras, and a lot of talons, maybe 15 or 20). If you consider that a big part of it is only talons or maybe even runabouts, it makes 200 or 300 ships fleet seem much more believable (the 40 ships who fought the borgs were mostly if not all size 4 or higher).

Found out I had that episode on tape after all and I agree that a lot (maybe about half of them) of the Fed ships we see are small craft. If that's the norm and not the exception it could explain the low number of ships in the 7th fleet (112) - Bashir only talked about the biger ones and the difference to the large fleets (200+) would be the attack fighters and such. Or maybe this operation took the fleet too far from it's usual theater of operations for the smaler ships to participate.

By the way: All those Size 2 and 3 ships seemd capable of keeping up with the fleet themselves without any carrier http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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"To seek, to strive, to find and not to yield" - Alfred Tennyson

Unfortunely Talon's aren't in mass production at that time.

The small ships are Star Fleet Attack Fighters in wings of 4-5.

True I didn't consider the fighters, maybe not half the fleet but a third anyway!

Calcoran: IF going by the encyclopedia that they formed the fleets for the war, then they would be filled, perhaps not at full strength this far into the war but...

Dominion fleets for sure are over half fighters. THe ep were only the klingons are defending with 1500 ships are oputnumbered 20:1. Thus 30000 Dominion, Cardassion, Breen ships.

So okay say 200 capital ships and 100 fighters/support as a full strength taskforce fleet!

Oh and the battle for DS9 was short range, they'd only just left SB375.


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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

SIR SIG:

All I'm saying about carriers and fighters is, that those fighters were capable to keep up with the capital ships, meaning the should have decent warp drives themselves. Now if they do I can't imagine Starfleet building ships that can fly at say Warp 7 but only for a few lightyears. (Personaly I never really liked the carrier idea - be it akira class or whatever)

Concerning the Dominion fleet of 30000 ships - do we really believe that? I mean why didn't they just waltz over the whole alpha quadrant and conquer the Federation if they had that many ships? I have a lot of difficulties buying this number.

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"To seek, to strive, to find and not to yield" - Alfred Tennyson

About fighters ... first of all, Spacedock makes it rather easy to create ships capable of high warp, but only for a short period of time, and I expect that if it had been uncommon (canonwise I mean) Steve would have made it more difficult. Besides, it makes sense for a fighter to be capable of rather high warp, because they would be pretty useless if not ("Fighters? Right, let's warp outta here!"). However, fighters might be able to reach warp_whatever, considering the cramped conditions onboard a fighter, you wouldn't want to spend more than a few hours in it anyway http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif, so no use for it being able to sustain it's highest warp for weeks, right?
(this has nothing to do with the topic, but since I pretty much agree with what's been stated above (200 to 300 vessels fleet (in times of war) with about one third talons/fighters/runabouts/youcallthem), I wouldn't have anything to say)

Lancer: True but we have no onscreen evidence to support this; we only saw them at high impusle. What the Maquis used were Peregrine modified couriers which do have warp (in case you use that as proof).

Also there is the Shelly class (frankenstein built) that in most areas is accepted as a small carrier; maybe a suadron of 15-20 fighters?

The 30000 ships is canon by the numbers/math. But easily half are Jem'Hadar fighters or they would have ridden over everyone. As well they were across 2 fronts (fed & romulan) and Dominion/Cardassion/Breen components. ie spread out!

Calcoran: Too true, warp probably is a required component. I just don't like the feel of it. Maybe warp 9 for 2 hours? They don't have obvious nacelles though!

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

I tend to aggree with Sig on the size of fleets. I also think that the numbering of the flets would most likely not be a cut and dried 1-9 type thing. The POF mentions the 16th and 22nd Fleets (Mobile). In the US and other navies, the fleets don't have consistently conseq numbering.

Reasons? Say you start off with 6 fleets and during a comflict beef up to 8. You lose a couple of fleets. Those numbers are usually not used again for some time; replacement fleets come under different numbers. Or you roll up a fleet after a conflict into another (9th and 5th fleets, due to their location, are now under centralized command as 9th, or some such...)

Don't ask me why, but it seems to be a tradition thing.

Why Qerlin, Why? http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

Seriously though, by tradition if SF follows most of the Earth wet navies stuff I'd agree.

But going off the encyclopedia, the 10 fleets were formed specifically for the war. So at the time of forming I'd say they were full up 10*300 fleets.

Now sure they losted alot of ships, but a big decimation like that you would've heard about it. The closer fleet to come to that was the 7th. And she was later seen in action with replenished numbers.

Now I agree some fleets just weren't mentioned but I consider the 7th the worst hit and it recovered. Personally I'd stick to 10 Task Force Fleets of 200 capital vessels and 100 smaller craft. Thus a starting cvalue of 3000 ships for the war.

Even if we take PoF as a peace time small fleet system, they still have to find some 2000+ ships to make the pre war starting numbers app. 4 years later.

Evidently some ships are indeed recommissioned older vessels and maybe some commercial craft appropriated by SF like many governments in WWI and II!

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

I have noticed that you have to take standing fleet numbers in ST, particularly during the war, with a asteroid of salt. I have always taken that Starfleet is a small, relatively speaking, organization. Why else would Wolf 359 have been such a big hit to the fleet, they lost 39 vessels and that was considered major. Now, this is where you begin to tell that the writers have no concept of logistics...It was stated they would be able to get the fleet back on its feet in a year after 359, I buy that.

What I find a little hard to believe is the seeming hugh numbers that Star Fleet fielded during the war. Given that 39 vessels destroyed at Wolf was such a large loss, I estimate that the fleet consisted of a couple of hundred "ships of the line" and probably times two smaller craft. Which totals about 600-800 vessels in the fleet. Now, taking into consideration mothballed and ships relagated to training command that could be brought up to combat levels probably adds maybe another 200 that weren't scrapped altogether, it is expensive to keep a ship in mothballs after all. So that brings the total to about 1000-1200 vessels for the war.

Considering that they had built about 5 Galaxy class ships in about 10 years and only 2 Sovereign class in about 3 years...there really should not be that many of the BB class ships in the fleet. The smaller ones Excelsior, New Orleans, Niagara, etc could probably be rolled off the assembly lines pretty quickly, but not so quickly to reflect the numbers seen in battles like Chin'toka. My personal feelings on the matter is the CGI guys should not have gone with what looked "cool" (I have to abmit it did) but what would have looked a little more realistic. As one of my gaming group pointed out..."Starship combat in Star Trek looks more like fighter combat", ie. far too many ships moving far to "freely". Look at Empire Strikes Back, the scene where the 2 Star Destroyers are heading toward each other one of the captains yells "Evasive action" and the ship didn't start to change course before half of the other ship went by. But I digress on this last point.

Anyway just my 2 cents worth.

Phantom: I acknowledge that alot of people like small fed fleets and alot like large fleets and some even huge fleets.

But the number of ships in Ds9 is canon now, at least for the DW. So that is what a lot of people use.

With Wolf 359, some peolpe are acknowledging the DS9 fleets by saying that the 39 ships were from small fleets ala PoF or just the nearest available ships in time.

Both of these will work with 'getting the fleet back up in a year'. Exactly that A fleet no the fleet.

YMMV. And apparently it does! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif


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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

Sir Sig,

Ok, agreed. But...uh, what are these canon numbers? I have seen alot of numbers fired across this board from my 1000 to upwards of 5000 and more. what has been put down as a standard, agreed upon, number (ie canon)? I can see, at most 10 fleets with around 200 vessels each.

If the number is higher then we must agree, to disagree. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Phantom: Specifically onscreen mentioned:-

1) 7th fleet of 112 ships which only 14 survived

2) Klingons having 1500 ships for deployment, circa last 10 eps of DS9

3) Dominion having 1254 ships during the retaking of DS9

4) 10th fleet is mentioned so at least that many.

*******************************************

re 1) At least 112 ships and 10 fleets so a minimum of 1120 front line vessels.

re 2) The 1500 Klingon ships were outnumbered by the Dominion/Cardassions/Breen 20:1 and thud 30000 ships.

re 3) The Dominion 1254 ships out number the federation fleet 2:1 which is made up of the 2nd and 5th fleets. Thus a average can be assummed of 313 per fleet.

re 4) 10+ fleets with half mentioned by name on screen.

So with a bit of maths:-

Take average of 112 and 313 ships to get an overall average of 212. And thus a minimum of 2120 frontline vessels.

Now it has been hashed out here (see above posts) that the actual average could be 300 ships with 100 of which are small vessels/fighters.

And Bashir's statement about 112 ships could be only the capital ships.


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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

I just want to make sure that I understand the numbers;

1) 2120 vessels in Starfleet...I can buy that, not that much higher than my estimates.

2)30000 enemy vessels...Sold again, given we're talking 3 Empires...Dominion (who knows their total War capability), Cardie (each Order has about 500000 to 1 million men). Actually, looking at the figures 30000 vessels seems low...I just did some figuring myself, assuming each Order is similar in organization with 500000 men with the capability to transport all of them and not knowing the split for Galor-class and Keldon-class...The Cardie fleet numbers in around 10-15000 ships. You would think that the Dom. would supply more ships...But then the Cardies were more cannon fodder then true allies. The Breen are an unknown factor to me.

Yikes! How did the Federation win? What was the Romulan contingent? This was more of a lop-sided war than I thought.

Sold! And another brownie point to me! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

Well with these numbers 2120 is a minimum. If you includded every Fed space worthy craft that could fight then I'd peg a 3-4000 mark. Thats why 2120 is an active/frontline estimate.

Now I'd like to assume that the feds had double what the Klingons could offer so a 3000 figure and thus 300 ships per fleet seems a good number.

As for the Rommies, they certainly didn't commit as much, but if they had I would say similiar numbers to the federation. So perhaps 2000 Warbirds and such?

The Dominions 30000 ships is specifically the Dominion. But the context was all the bad guys vs the Klingons; thus the dominion/cardassion/breen reference.

But the 30000 ships is between 3 'task forces' and 2 war fronts so say 6 seperate fleets of 5000?

Plus the Dominion had 2500 vessels in reserve coming through the wormhole as reinforcements.

All I can say is; that the Dominion really do make ships at a impressive rate as General Martok states. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk