Question about Damage

Since i am going to be moving in a few weeks, I canceled my online order of ST PG until I get to my destination (had books get lost last time I moved and don't want to do it again.) So, bottom line, I don't have the book, hence I ask the question. :D

I was planning on running a makeshift LOTR CODA game from the stuff I have gathered here and the adventure game. I had one question on damage.

I am wondering how what would be considered "subdual" damage in that popular fantasy game ;) is implimented in ST or CODA in general. I remember somewhere (I think it was a thread) that a phaser knocks you out. But what about receiving multiple strikes from an unarmed combatant. Is there a way that CODA lets you knock out characters or foes with out killing them?

Has anyone run a combat using the CODA Trek game? I am curious how it played out, and if the damage and the modifiers to checks were a nice feature.

I am sorry that I dnot know about the subdual damage but I do know that the game played pretty nicely. The phasers are actually lethal. I was against a romulan that had stolen a federation phaser. he had it set to vaporize a hum. I had mine set to stun. I was able to dodge his phaser attack and I knocked him out with a stun. In another case though I was unable to dodge and was vaporized. In starfleet they all know it is a dangerous job and my character figured that out. lol:D I hope this helped

I have a similar question, what is the damage of a punch...

Unfortunately, the rules as written don't differentiate between armed and unarmed combat damage. Sorry. :(

As for the damage of a punch, it is 1d3+ your Strength modifier. If you roll a Complete success (5-9 over the Target Number), damge is increased by +2. An Extraordinary Success (10+ over TN) gives a +4 to damage. This is explained on page 250 of the PG.

So is there a way to knock somebody out in unarmed combat ?
I know an edge allows to Stun people with the blunt edge of a weapon, but I don't remember seeing something similar for unarmed combat (apart for the Nerve Pinch).
I hope that Vulcans are not the only species able to end a fistfight without killing their opponent :p

Mind, I seem to discover new rules everyday, so it may well be something I missed :o

Woohoo!! 600th post!!

There is no provision made in the rules to differentiate between unarmed and armed damage. However, it would be safe to assume that unarmed combat would render the target unconscious instead of killing him.

Thanks for the answer, Doug. :)

So, basically, this means that, although there's nothing about it in the rules, we can consider unarmed combat damage as doing a different type of damage than armed combat, right (since it doesn't kill) ;) :p ?

Guess I'll use the ICON rules for combat damage as a house rule for that, then. :)

On a similar subject, are some precisions about different skills of Unarmed Combat planned to appear in books to come (with different maneuvers for each of them) ? Or maybe just some guidelines on how to create a combat maneuver ?

It seems obvious to me that a house rule system for the handling of damage needs to be invented- the way CODA handles it is completely ludicrous.

Dividing it into "Kill damage" and "Stun damage" seems by far the best option. The damage ratings need to be reworked too- point blank from a shotgun and that fancy uniform of your wont save you.

Perhaps the Vitality/Wound Points thing is more to your liking?

I think that "house-system" modelling for damage in unarmed combat as stunned damage is not right... trust me, the damage one takes from a punch is quite real.... and people do die from being pummeled (as I can attest to trying to treat them in the Emergency Room).

But, it is your game... and one can do anything they want, especially if the style fits the Narrator and players.

Charles

Actually, the double damage scale was a perfectly official rule in ICON... and, while I agree that damages from unarmed combat can very well be lethal, I just regret that, in the official CODA rules, there seems to be absolutely nothing that would allow a character to knock out someone with a swing (unless again I missed something).
So maybe this was an intent of the designers for making the game more real, but personally, I prefer having unarmed combat being the "soft" option, from wich you only go away with some bruises, with phasers and others weapons being the serious things where you really risk your life (though I agree that some weapons like the shotgun seem a bit underpowered to me, but on the other hand ICON's weapons were faaaar too lethal for a common human).
I never hesitate to design house rules for my games, I'm just a bit surprised that CODA seems unable to account most Kirk fights (I mean, there's no rules about the resistance of a character's shirt ;)). Maybe some particular combat action allowing to Stun an opponent ?

Vitality? Wound points? Never heard of it.

You think a character can die from punches in ST? Hardly. :rolleyes:

But, if that's your inkling, look at WWs system for WoD- when you've taken enough "non-lethal" damage, it becomes quite lethal. So it is quite possible to pummel someone to death. :D

The point is that you should be able to knock people out- without the "blunt attack" skill (now that's silly) and without a phaser set to stun.

And it should take lesser time to recover from a punch than, say, a Bath-let slice.

(Not that Bath-lets seems so dangerous... just look at the episode where Dax goes with her Klingon buddies to kill "the Albino"- no blood at all!)

Yes I agree, I wish there was a bit more on unarmed combat in the basic rules, but there is not and thats the reality.

Anyway I was working with some examples of edges that support better unarmed combat (please see my Weapon Mastery post if you are interested)

I am thinking about some house rules, say a complete/extraordinary success results in the enemy being forced to make some sort of test, maybe a stamina test or something like that to see if they are still standing, and every wound level caused by the unarmed attack effects the test as well.

Any ideas anyone?

Regards

Well for one thing I'm very tempted to import some ICON rules into CODA combat rules (like for instance, being thrown to the ground when reaching the Wounded wound level and so on), especially for the difference between Unarmed and Armed combat damage.
The only thing that pulls me back a little is that I wonder if this wouldn't go against some agenda of the designers of the game (like making it faster, less lethal, or something else apparent only after many hours of game testing and not a after fast browsing of the rules ;)).

However, I think that adding a special combat manoeuver allowing to do stun damage in Unarmed Combat would not unbalance the game too much (the only thing to avoid would be making this manoeuver more or as much effective than the Nerve Pinch, of course). That, or requesting Stamina tests (at the TN indicated on the Natural Healing table, for instance) whenever a character loses a Wound Level in Unarmed Combat (or even every type of Combat) to see whether he can remain conscious. If not, he loses consciousness for some rounds/minutes/hours/days (depending on the wound level) or until successful First Aid/Medicine tests are made on him.
Comments, suggestions ? :)

I like both ideas (complete/extraordinary success from the attacker, or reaching a wound level for the defender) ... but you also need to account for the fact that healing from unarmed combat wounds should be a bit easier than from phaser ot bar'leth ones.

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Originally posted by Profit
You think a character can die from punches in ST? Hardly. :rolleyes:

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Why not? Real world situation: a man who worked for a local grocery store got mad because some teenagers were making fun of him. He followed the teens to a nearby fast-food joint and punched the wrong teen once (to the head). Just once. That teen died later from unforseen complications arising from that one punch. Incidentally, the man was found and charged with murder.

So yeah, I think you can die from taking a punch. Now, in the medically advanced 24th century, it probably wouldn't happen. Unless, of course, medical attention was unavailable after you decided to brawl with those three nasty Nausicans.

I think that the difference is already taken into account in the amount of damage. For instance, if a phaser shot takes you 10 wound points (very low setting, rather easy to heal), the same amount of damage can be reached with at least three punches from an average human (and one particularly successful punch from a Klingon). This seems rather comparable.
Similarly, if a single phaser shot puts you Incapacited, you'll have to be pummeled consequently to reach the same Wound level (let's say, four or five Klingon punches and a dozen from an average human) - and, as ImperialOne pointed out, you can be in a very bad shape after such pummelage.

I think I'm definitively gonna settle for the house rule of requesting a Stamina Test everytime a player loses a wound level to stay conscious - just have to adjust a correct TN (don't have my books at hand for the account on being at work ;)).

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Why not?

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What do you mean why not? Have you ever seen anyone killed with punches in any ST material? People dying from punches just isn't in the paradigm!

Of course you can die from a punch in real life. A fraction of the pummel series characters recieve in a typical brawl would probably hospitalise you for a long time...! ;)

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Originally posted by Profit
What do you mean why not? Have you ever seen anyone killed with punches in any ST material? People dying from punches just isn't in the paradigm!

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Well you never know... these RedShirts semt always so fragile... :D

IIRC, in one episode where Kirk has to anger Spock to free him from the influence of some spores, Kirk states that he's afraid to die from the hands of Spock (and I think Spock stops just before one last punch that looked very dangerous from the way Kirk backed away - but I'm not sure of that scene).

And of course, this isn't a punch, but when Worf snaps Weyoun's head, I think it's definitely Unarmed Combat involved nonetheless ;)... Similarly, Data was able to strangle a Borg to death in Descent. So some Unarmed Combat attacks can definitely kill in the ST universe.

I just love our message boards here; there is enough Trek knowledge/recollection to cite a precedence to support almost anything... more power to us!:D

Charles

C5 stated:
Well you never know... these RedShirts semt always so fragile...

IIRC, in one episode where Kirk has to anger Spock to free him from the influence of some spores, Kirk states that he's afraid to die from the hands of Spock (and I think Spock stops just before one last punch that looked very dangerous from the way Kirk backed away - but I'm not sure of that scene).

And of course, this isn't a punch, but when Worf snaps Weyoun's head, I think it's definitely Unarmed Combat involved nonetheless ... Similarly, Data was able to strangle a Borg to death in Descent. So some Unarmed Combat attacks can definitely kill in the ST universe.

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So some Unarmed Combat attacks can definitely kill in the ST universe.

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No one's arguing that. Data bonks borg in "first contact" as well, remember? (And strangely enough, they fall like corn for the sickle)

General "brawling moves" (punches and throws, there are seldom kicks for some reason- how I would love for them to throw in some good martial arts!) however, hardly scratch anyone, but occasionally knocks them out cold.

This is impossible to emulate under the present CODA system. My idéa is to separate the damage (use '/' for "stun" damage, and a full 'X' for "kill" damage for example) and make a stamina check after each damage to stay on your feet.

However, even with these changes I do not like the CODA damage system. Using any kind of "hit points" is distasteful, IMHO. Better go for a system like the one in WoD or Paranoia.

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Originally posted by Profit
This is impossible to emulate under the present CODA system. My idéa is to separate the damage (use '/' for "stun" damage, and a full 'X' for "kill" damage for example) and make a stamina check after each damage to stay on your feet.

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That's why I'd like to have some input from the designers on why the combat rules became so succint in CODA (while the system usually improves a lot over ICON IMHO). I agree that Star Trek adventures are not supposed to be centered around fights, however, given how many brawls we've been given to see in the series, I think it's not unreasonable to assume some players and narrators would like to re act some of these in their adventures. Wich, with the current rules, assumes either some amount of house ruling, or having the players eventually draw their phasers and stunning everyone to stop the brawl.
I'm just curious whether there is some hidden agenda behind these rules (like : "Phasers are the best weapon in any combat, don't bother with anything else" ;)), or if some extended rules are due to appear in upcoming extensions.

I wouldn't expect extended/expanded rules from Decipher along these lines (Starships yes). However, simply a best guess based on the intent to keep rules codified within the PG and NG. There is nothing wrong, however, with creating and using your own.

IIMO, I believe there is far less brawling in the TNG/DS9/Voyager eras then the "primitive" eras of TOS and Enterprise. Note, I like TOS/Enterprise, but I think the show's writers deemphasize brawling (outside of Klingon duels) relative to TOS/Enterprise on purpose.

Charles

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Originally posted by ImperialOne
I
IIMO, I believe there is far less brawling in the TNG/DS9/Voyager eras then the "primitive" eras of TOS and Enterprise. Note, I like TOS/Enterprise, but I think the show's writers deemphasize brawling (outside of Klingon duels) relative to TOS/Enterprise on purpose.

Charles

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I don't recall many brawls in Enterprise. But the Klingon boarding actions in DS9 heavily involved HTH combat.

Since the game is supposed to represent all eras of Trek and all possible settings within the milieu, I think there should have been a more comprehensive HTH system.

The loss of the martial arts styles was a mistake IMHO. It is far more interesting to have 'Sunrise slash' with the chaka than the non-descript edge fron the Coda PG.

I'd suggest the following for the damage from Unarmed Combat :

Each time a player loses a wound level in an unarmed combat, he must make a Stamina Test to stay conscious. If the character fails the test, he loses consciousness. I'd suggest the following table :

Wound level............TN...........Loss of consciousness
Dazed......................5............1D3 rounds
Injured....................10...........2D6 rounds
Wounded................15...........1D6 minutes
Incapacited.............20...........1D6*10 minutes
Near Death.............25...........1D3 hours

If some successful first aid or medicine is performed upon the character, he automatically regains consciousness.

If a character loses all wound levels from Unarmed Combat damage (he "dies"), he automatically loses consciousness for 1D6 hours (unless of course some healing is performed on him in the meantime). Once awakened, he'll regain 1D6 wound levels (1D6*Health HP). This can be tweaked if he suffered another type of damage during the fight (for instance, if he suffered one or two stabs).

With this house rule, I try to keep the single scale of damage of CODA and reflect the fact that Unarmed Combat damage can really harm someone (something implied in CODA with the very low damage inflicted by Unarmed attacks IMHO).
Any comments welcome :)

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Originally posted by ImperialOne
When Worf snaps Weyoun's head, I think it's definitely Unarmed Combat involved...

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And probably a Courage point or three additionally, in order to guarantee an Extraordinary Success. Or perhaps Worf has a rare unpublished edge: "Killing Blow".



Michael

I use a varient of the rules presented in Cyberpunk 2020 by R. Talsorian Games.
The martial arts styles in Cberpunk can be easily converted. Just use the normal CODA rules but add the maneuvers from Cyberpunk. The styles simply give bonuses to certain maneuvers. In my conversion you buy skill levels in a style which gives a plus 1 per level to unarmed combat skill, max 1/2 unarmed combat skill.
As to the knockout problem I require a Stamina check with a TN of 10 with the appropriate penalty for the wound level. I also use the hit location chart form Cyberpunk with the rules that head shots do 2X damage and shots to the limbs require a stamina check with a TN of 5 per the number of wound levels sustained.
Example: victim with a health of 6 takes 6 points to the arm, a stamina check of 5 is rquired. If 18 points had been taken the TN would have been 15, etc..
Failure of this check severs or otherwise mangles the limb to the point it requires replacement.
And to anyone who says thats too gory and realistic for Star Trek, I say tell it to Nog.;)

Any other ideas, guys and gals ? :)

Err... bump :o

Like I said on the Unarmed Combat Thread, that's one part of CODA wich I really find unclear.

BTW, I'd like to know whether LOTR had some more precise rules on the subject.

The damage track is similar to the one used in Mechwarrior 2nd ed. All you do is keep track of armed damage and unarmed damage seperately. Like shade in half a box for non-lethal damage, and shade in a full box for lethal. Or something similar.
Not too complicated actually.

The point i believe (IMHO) is too keep combat like the shows, cinematic and mostly secondary to the overall story arc.

White Wolf's Storyteller system supports Bashing and Lethal Damage (in addition to Aggravated, which is Lethal to humans). This is sounds similar to the approach in MechWarrior, though I'm not familiar with the system.

See (borrow) your closest WW Storyteller book for reference. I suggest Hunter:the Reckoning as the most "human".

A fellow by the handle "Commander Briard Thaden" gave me some good pointers at the Decipher discussion forum.

http://calder.decipher.com/cgi-bin/m...5$4028-19314$3

To sum it up, he suggests applying special effects for:
- called shots to the tune of extra damage or additional penalties.
- surprised enemies (goons) get knocked out by a single successful attack.