Why can't Yeas and Nays Co-Exist?

A topic to throw out to you out there and to comment. Note that its not aimed at the forums here. I have seen it rear its ugly head here a few times but generally we are all quite happy to discuss points without fear of being labelled and shouted down. I just have had some recent non-internet experiences which have really ticked me off...

Its strange that in all matters of fandom, be it roleplaying, movies, fanchises, etc. there are those who cannot stand an opposing viewpoint.

You know, those who like or dislike a topic and verbally shout down, berate, or dismiss all those who don't share their view.

I have had people tell me that they didn't want to hear my opinion if it didn't match theirs. I have been called a nitpicker and a fanboy for various views by others. I have had my views ridiculed not because of flaws in my reasoning but simply because my views didn't match those of the other person.

If its one thing that bothers me is intolerance. I can accept strongly-held beliefs that are not open for debate (since I too have beliefs like that). What I cannot stand is those who will not allow my views to be heard or treat me with disrespect because of my views.

I don't expect you to agree with me and I welcome counter-arguments. But my blood boils when someone starts labelling me simplely because I spoke my mind.

So any views/comments/rebuttals?

I think you are wrong! And stupid! And smelly! And I am ashamed to share the sahme country with someone who is so obviously wrong! :D

Okay allkidding aside.

I have no idea why this happens. I have done it and have had it done to me.

Right now I am having this fear of posting on some BSG forums where everyone is crapping on the unmade new show and pining for the return of Apollo and Starbuck. I faer to post since I disagree with them.

Perhaps it comes from being fringe folk to start with?

I don't know if it is a fandom thing or an internet thing, as it seems to apply to politics, religion, warp velocities, Death Stars vs. Borg Cube, etc.

I know that as flexible as I try to be I am far more likely to dig in my heels if it is an internet discussion as opposed to a discussion with a person who I am communicating with in flesh and blood. It is a lot easier to call someone an idiot when you are a virtual personality by the name "Breshau of Livonia" (an occasional alias of mine) as opposed to when they are five feet away from you and you see them almost every day.

I think a BIG reason for the flamefests and intolerance stems from the fact that everyone is out of arms reach of each other. Alot of the rudest people on the internet would be far more polite if they ran the risk of getting decked for being rude...

Being 6'3" myself and a former bouncer, I find people are far more polite with me in person than on the internet.

That said a lot of the people in the flame wars, tend to be the kind who are more socially awkward in the real world and here they can hide behind their moniker and the fact that no one can see them, and therefore cannot judge them.

And then some are just 13 year old testosterone factories.


IMHO of course

;)

Well I may be only 5'6" myself, and of fairly average build, but I've had a few conversations with people online, who had they made some of those comments to my face, might not have fared so well. :D

That said, I tend to choose my words more carefully online, since the nuances of non-verbal communication are lost. Still, even then I'm not always successful. And sometimes, people just piss me off and I resort to snide comments and veiled insults :D

Anyway, I think Dan hit the nail right on the head.

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Originally posted by Dave Biggins
I think a BIG reason for the flamefests and intolerance stems from the fact that everyone is out of arms reach of each other. Alot of the rudest people on the internet would be far more polite if they ran the risk of getting decked for being rude...

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Amen, brother Dave.

Yeah, verily..

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Originally posted by Dan Stack
Death Stars vs. Borg Cube

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just to prove a point:

Eventually, the Borg.

The first Cube would be vaporised by the Death Star.

The second Cube would be wiped out by the Imperial Starfleet after scaring the bejeezus out of Imperial-types when the Cube suffered no damage from the Death Star planet-smasher weapon.

The third Cube would be able to waltz in and have its way with Death Star personnel...maybe even dump the Cube in favour of the new toy... :)

However, getting back OT:

People have opinions. You can't stop it (except maybe in Russia or China :D).

People express opinions. Again, you can't stop it (except, again, perhaps in Russia or China).

The closer your viewpoint is to the heart of your "opponent's" beliefs, the more violent (verbal - although physical may not be out of the question, depending on the topic) the response is giong to be.

It's human nature. Not a lot more you can do about it.

Fortunately, we have managed to accumlate a good group of open-minded and sensible people here. :)

There is always a Yin for the Yang somewhere along the line.

If everyone was as open mined as us good folks here. Then there would be no wars and we would live in a close to utopia environment.

As to other comments, most people will weigh their options before verbally assaulting you face to face. Thus making most people more pleasant face to face.

/end odd speculation ;)

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"Breshau of Livonia" (an occasional alias of mine)

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Do you use this alias when you want noone to remember you? :)

Is this the Season of Mists?

Indeed, it was the Season of Mists, one of my favorite stories, in any medium.

SoM was the first Sandman I ever read, and only because I happened to belong to a book club which offered it at a discount, and one of my friends asked me to buy it for her.

The book came in while she was away on vacation, so I read it ( I will inevitably read ANYTHING if it remains in front of me for long enough.

After finishing it, I said "whoa."

I then immediately bought every other collection, and anything and everything by Gaiman I could thereafter find.

Good Omens, Neverwhere, Smoke and Mirrors, Stardust, American Gods, Murder Mysteries, and now Coraline.

But SoM was my first, and it's JUST F***ING BRILLIANT.

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Originally posted by prophetsteve

If its one thing that bothers me is intolerance. [SNIP] What I cannot stand is those who will not allow my views to be heard or treat me with disrespect because of my views.

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I'm actually quite opposed to the tolerance-at-all-costs attitude some boards and people employ. It basically boils down to: since this is my opinion YOU have no right challenging or questioning it. Thus killing all attempts at starting a discussion and turning discussion boards into some kind of digital Speaker's Corner. :rolleyes:

Every thread looking the same after some time:
1. Bob voices opinion A.
2. Jack agrees.
3. Jill agrees.
4. Bob ignores Jill and starts talking to Jack exclusively.

And what is the point in that?

So, to answer the question in the title thread:
"It would take the fun out of human interaction."

But yes I agree, that common courtesy and sense should be used. Not every post one disagrees with needs to be commented on OR Sometimes it is better to stay quiet and let the world think you're an idiot, than chime in and remove all doubt. ;)

Joe, who probably just massacred a really insightful quote

Quote:

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I'm actually quite opposed to the tolerance-at-all-costs attitude some boards and people employ. It basically boils down to: since this is my opinion YOU have no right challenging or questioning it. Thus killing all attempts at starting a discussion and turning discussion boards into some kind of digital Speaker's Corner.

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Tolerance isn't about not challenging or questioning. Tolerance is saying "I don't agree with you... but thats okay" as opposed to Intolerance which says "I don't agree with you... and since you don't agree with me you obviously are an stupid idiot, a munchkin, and have no idea what is good anyway".

You can have a lively debate with someone, exchanging viewpoints, engaging in debates, and even questioning someones beliefs in a tolerant fashion.

I wonder how much of political correctness of todays age has twisted the meaning to tolerance.

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Originally posted by prophetsteve


Tolerance isn't about not challenging or questioning. Tolerance is saying "I don't agree with you... but thats okay" as opposed to Intolerance which says "I don't agree with you... and since you don't agree with me you obviously are an stupid idiot, a munchkin, and have no idea what is good anyway".

You can have a lively debate with someone, exchanging viewpoints, engaging in debates, and even questioning someones beliefs in a tolerant fashion.

I wonder how much of political correctness of todays age has twisted the meaning to tolerance.

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IMHO, I would dare say quite a bit.

PC has changed the idea of tolerance to the point where if even the slightest pretense of a slant brings down the almighty wrath of some fringe group. You can't avoid anyone within the definition of your own tolerance; if you do, then the PC crowd automatically says "Well, you're intolerant."

In a way, using your above definition, tolerance may have been warped into intolerance....

As an aging curmudgeon I've found that the only thing I hate in net discussions is someone who HATES (fill in the blank with name of show, franchise, character etc.) and simply must share this hatred with the rest of the world. With Trek this always takes the form of a chorus of "The New Show Sucks", each and every time there is a new show. It is tedious.
There are plenty of things in the Fan World that I either don't enjoy or maybe even "dislike" but HATE is pretty much more bother than it's worth.
There is little point in discussing the merits or flaws of something with someone who HATES it. There is little point in throwing tirades about Creative Powers that Be. I'm afraid I don't believe in "Fan Activism", the odd phenomenon where seething hordes of irate Fans cling precariously to the delusion that some Corporate decision makers may, actually give a damn about what they think. Or, for that matter, that I may give a damn about what they think.
Perverse creature that I am, I can't help but bait the HATE-mongers, just a little bit.
Fandom is a fringe subculture filled with folks who have a fanatical devotion to specific genre shows, movies and books. It is perhaps unreasonable to expect a collection of fanatics to rationally discuss their various differences of opinion with politeness and humor. Sad that.
So, if somebody wants to discuss with me the weaknesses of characterization or disappointing plot elements of the new Trek show. Okay dokey. If that person wants to rant about how much they HATE the "Evil UnTrek" (whether it be TNG, DS9, VOY or ENT), well, get ready to "take it like a humanoid" 'cause the 'Bob is bored!

I frequently get in trouble, especially around here, when talking about controversial topics. Maybe I don't express myself properly or maybe its my position, but people seem to really read far too much in the posts I make, such as the recent thread with KillerWhale.

I don't lie. I just don't do it. I don't blow sunshine up people's asses. And at 32, with a wife, child, a huge full-time job, this web site, plus external stuff like writing RPGs, I just don't have the time, frankly, to fuck around.

With that said, I tell you how it is. I tell you the truth. I give it to you straight from my brain (what's left of it :) ) to the keyboard--for the most part, unfiltered. This bothers some people around here. Some people just read too much into what I say and take it personally.

Contrary to popular belief there are very few people online, on this board, that I a) hate, b) think are idiots, or c) fundamentally disagree with and disregard anything they say. In fact, Jedi Muldoon is the only one that springs to mind. ;)

When I read and reply to threads it may shock a lot of you that I don't bother to look at who posted a thread/topic until afterwards. I'm just as likely to respond to a Doug Burke/Phantom thread and say "wow, that's awesome" or "that's total crap" irregardless of the people and personalities involved.

And, here's the kicker: I don't hold grudges. I don't have the time to do so nor the inclination. If I disagreed with you in the past, that's over and done with. Look at Aslan's and my love-hate relationship as an example. :) I recommended Phantom, one of Coda's loudest detractors, to review the product. If I held grudges I'd have to killfile half the people on this board.

So, in closing (and to put an end to this rambling), I think I get a raw deal around here. People need to not take my comments too far to heart or, in most cases, don't try to read between the lines. With me, I'll give it to you straight, upfront, and with no bullshit. Don't take it personally.

In the future, if you doubt this, just link this thread and come back to read up on me prior to replying to a post of mine. :D

Here, Here Don (Not to kiss @$$). I wish people in everyday life would just tell it like it is and not perform the dance of lies.

sigh..

Just been dealing with to much crap latly (see past thread).

Karg