For the UK/European Folks - Primarily...

No real reason for this... But to guage opinion amongst us UK folk, and to gain experience from those in the know. Please feel free to share views opposing or agreeing... Or even just vent your spleen.

Simple rule. Your opinion is sacred. I dont want any of us taking offence at other peoples views...

Single Currency
I have got to say, that I am strongly feeling that it is past time the UK stopped sitting on the fence on this issue. Either join or dont. But to hang on any longer is going to cause us harm economically. My personal opinion is that we should get off our collective butts and join before its too late. Sure it would be nice to keep the pound, but for sheer convenience I think the Euro is the way to go. I dont think it would devalue our culture, more-likely it would enrich it. I would like the abiliyt to wake up in the morning and jump on a tarain or plane to anywhere in europe and carry on my day just as I would elsewhere, without having to wait to change currency. As the comedian Denis Leary said 'Because I might just wanna do it.'

To be honest, our reluctance to drop the pound is an archaic tradition that simply does not fit with the modern world. In an age where money is increasingly electrical and actual cash loosing its effectiveness vs the convenience of a piece of plastic, the switch to Euro would be harmless. Far less so than now. Right now (as of last weekend), we go to Europe and pay with a credit card, and STILL have to pay a currency conversion rate thus effectively paying more than anyone else with Euro as their currency. Nice way to screw us Blair.

It wouldn't be so bad if Euro was considered a valid currency alongside the pound. And dont tell me that a good conversion rate cannot be achieved or matched daily. Here at IBM we deal in EURO, Pounds and Dollars, as a matter of course, and to make things easier we keep the same standard conversion rate for Euro's and US Dollars, oddly, the same rate for both currencys. So somedays you make money on the bank conversions, some days you dont. Have a till linked toa computer and you can charge up to the moment prices... OK, it expensive, but the tech and the capabilities are already there. So why havn't we taken them?

ID Cards
OK, heres a beef. Everytime I see this one come up, there are usually 2 sides. The 'Not Bothered' and the 'Paranoid Conspiracy Nuts'. I fall firmly into the first camp. I can see how they can be a good thing,, and how they can be abused (hell, as a Cyberpunk GM I used and abused them in game myself). However I feel that it is time to re-evaluate the situation. What the 'no ID card' arguement regularly fails to take into account is that they are already here.

Your work security pass, bank card, new driving licence (with photo ID after all these years), your National Insurance card, Passport... they are all ID's, and all could easily be compaitable into a new ID card. In addition, they could be combined with health information and even other voluntary cards such as organ doners cards (maybe even store cards?). In a age where there is so much plastic in a wallet that much of it is left in a drawer for comfort purposes (I am regularly carring about 20 credit card sized peices of plastic).. Why not make it easy on ourselve. Even if a national ID only covers 1/3 of what I mention above, then it will be a job done, making it a useful tool rather than a paranoids nightmare.

But first, lets set up some safeguards to reduce the risk of abuse of the system.


Next?

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To be honest, our reluctance to drop the pound is an archaic tradition that simply does not fit with the modern world.

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Amen to that. Being not English, I wouldn't have dared to say so myself, but I deeply agree... Living in France, hence part of the Euro zone, tourism and trade has never been easier.

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But first, lets set up some safeguards to reduce the risk of abuse of the system.

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What buggers me is, if you offer control power to a government, it'll always use it.

I'm not sure the abuse can be reduced. Look at the Echelon programs and such. Let's make things more difficult for the citizens to be traced, because eventually all are. So at least, let's make this tough...

Single Currency:
As a matter of fact, I think it'd be good for both Europe and the UK if the UK indeed agreed to switch to Euro. I mean, countries as proud of their currency as Germany with its holy Deutschmark and France with its much regreted Franc have accepted to let go of it in favour of the Euro, why couldn't the UK? ;)
The funny thing in that is that we've been using the Euro here for almost 6 months now, and a recent survey showed that more than 80% of the French people is still thinking in Franc, paying in Euro. Looks like the habit is hard to shake ;). I too find myself unable to cope with prices if they're not divisible by 1.5, 15, or 150 (resp. 10, 100 and 1000 francs) ;). Now, we feel as if we were living in a foreign country ... the good point is that we're all equal in this feeling: A German coming to Paris has just as much difficulty evaluating the real value of what he's buying as the French guy who lives there ;) (all right, the real good point is that he'll be able to pay with his own bills, not some bills he'd have had to pay a hefty conversion fee for).
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the Euro, it's just that it may be a while before we get accustomed to it ... a while longer than foreseen, at that.

ID Cards:
I'm not sure I got that one ... you don't have national ID cards in the UK?

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Originally posted by Calcoran
ID Cards:
I'm not sure I got that one ... you don't have national ID cards in the UK?

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No we do not have a national ID card, and every time the government brings up the idea, they always focus on what the card is protecting us against (eg Crime and terrorism) and then the 'Paranoids' (my term) come on and tell you how it will remove your freedom. Whether you've done anything wrong or not.

A big sign of the influence of America on the UK...

ID Cards:
Well, we do have one in France ... I'm not sure what it's good for however ;).
I mean, law wants us to carry it around with us (AFAIR, there is a heavy fine if you forget it) ... well, that, or our passport. Some time ago, it wasn't even free (about 20 Euros). Now it is. Still, it's not exactly credit-card sized (it's a bit bigger), and doesn't feature any SIM card. It does not carry any information apart from what it say it does: your ID. Thus, it doesn't help you much in reducing your wallet's size (we also have a credit card sized national health insurance card ... which does not always work ;) ... a driver's license ... well and everything else of course).
I guess it does, however, help policemen find illegal immigrants, criminals, and the like.

Single Currency , at best it is still way too early to join, we should wait at least five more years to see if it works or not, preferably at least ten years. But, personally I DO NOT want the UK to scrap the Pound and to adopt a politically correct, badly conceived and badly implemented currency.

The Germans already want to scrap the euro due to the massive inflation it has already caused and the Irish are suffering due to the high cost of basic foodstuffs. There is no way in hell that the ECB can manage a currency on behalf of twelve or more economically diverse countries in the long term.

The supposed economic advantages of Britain adopting the euro are far, far outweighed by the practical disadvantages. It makes more economic sense for Britain to retain the Pound, especially as this Country is still a major GLOBAL power, much to the disgust of the Extreme Left and the Europhiles in this Country.

The only way this Country is to prosper is to look to the world outside of Europe, and not get trapped in a reborn Holy Roman Empire. [Extreme Shudder, HRE was by nature, by modern standards an extremely evil and repressive regime.] Europe should learn from the mistakes of the past and not to try create a rigid federal state like the US and the ols Soviet Union, instead it should be creating a very Loose Confederacy, personally I feel that the EU should be scrapped and a much reformed NATO should take over some of its responsibilities and the rest of its present powers returned back to the nation states and their citizens.

I.D. Cards We abandoned ID Cards back in the 1950's with the end of other wartime emergency measures such as rationing. At the moment both the Civil Liberties Movement (dominated by the Extreme Left) and the Libretarian Wing of the Conservative party regard the Compulsory introduction of ID Cards as a gross violation of our Traditional Legal and Human Rights. Personally, I can see the sense of having a multipurpose smart card, but I would only carry if it was an option, not compulsary.

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at best it is still way too early to join, we should wait at least five more years to see if it works or not, preferably at least ten years

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And then it'll be too late? :p
Frankly, I can't see how this could "not work". Mind you, the examples you give show that the shift should not be taken lightly. But basically, why should basic foodstuff be more expensive when paid with Euros? Because shopkeepers and stores and companies think a few more eurocent will both help their cash flow and the customers by presenting an easily undertsandable price maybe? Well, maybe someone should tell them they're wrong. I mean, the US manages to survice with US$ , and basically, 1 US$ and 1 Euro are grossly equivalent, aren't they?

Well I'm in the UK, and while I'm undecided on the ID card thing, I totally agree on the single currency. And the xenophobes i nthe UK, who hate anything 'European' can eat my shorts :D

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Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland

The Germans already want to scrap the euro due to the massive inflation it has already caused (snip)

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Oh really? Sure is news to me.

No offense, but maybe your source of information isn't as objective or comprehensive as it claims.

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The Germans already want to scrap the euro due to the massive inflation it has already caused (snip)

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Never heard of that. I heard they were pretty satisfied, on the contrary.

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I DO NOT want the UK to scrap the Pound and to adopt a politically correct, badly conceived and badly implemented currency.

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Politically correct? Hmm. Doesn't seem politically correct to me. Sounds daring, on the contrary.

As to badly conceived, well I'm no economist so I won't judge. Maybe you are; if so, I'm at a loss, could you elaborate?

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as this Country is still a major GLOBAL power

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As much as France, Germany or Switzerland.

The real global power now is the US. The only way to be a match is to federate. The best way to federate is a common currency.

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instead it should be creating a very Loose Confederacy, personally I feel that the EU should be scrapped and a much reformed NATO

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The US are a tight confederacy. So far I think they work fine. Something loose can't hold. We have to be in this together. Those who don't want to, fine; no problem with me. Simply, they won't be part of the greater plan.

The UK cannot be alone a major player in the world economy.
Neither can France.
Neither can Germany.
Neither can Switzerland.

That's why we must UNITE.

But hey, that's my opinion. :)

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Originally posted by Calcoran
ID Cards:
Well, we do have one in France ... I'm not sure what it's good for however ;).
I mean, law wants us to carry it around with us (AFAIR, there is a heavy fine if you forget it) ... well, that, or our passport. Some time ago, it wasn't even free (about 20 Euros). Now it is. Still, it's not exactly credit-card sized (it's a bit bigger), and doesn't feature any SIM card. It does not carry any information apart from what it say it does: your ID. Thus, it doesn't help you much in reducing your wallet's size (we also have a credit card sized national health insurance card ... which does not always work ;) ... a driver's license ... well and everything else of course).
I guess it does, however, help policemen find illegal immigrants, criminals, and the like.

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Like my mum used to say, "Always carry you papers..." There's way too much chance for abuse of an ID card with your entire life on it. Especially if stolen (you should see the hoops you have to jump through if you lose your driver's licence AND social security card at the same time here...you practically don't exist.

The EURO: as an American traveling in Europe, it's not bad having one currency. As a former Brit, I have to point out the pound still remains one of the most stable and strong currencies in the world. The Euro really isn't that big a deal...the same people are still making big money, and most aren't.

The Federation of Europe...I'd been careful, guys. The tendency for governments is to keep grabbing power and money from its citizens. Something in the European administration smacks of power-hunger at it's worst -- maybe it's the histrionics the governments that are pushing the single currency have when a country votes no on anything: Britain and Denmark on the Euro, Ireland on (crap! escapes me right now!). The immediate response is "They don't understand how important this is! We must indocrinate...I mean teach...them the error of their thinking!"

I've found most people can spot when some scheme is bad for them. Maybe the average guy on the street is seeing/smelling something amiss. The government pushing them just makes them more suspicious.

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Originally posted by KillerWhale


The UK cannot be alone a major player in the world economy.
Neither can France.
Neither can Germany.
Neither can Switzerland.

That's why we must UNITE.

But hey, that's my opinion. :)

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I couldn't agree more. Sadly there are still an awful lot of xenophobic, overly nationalistic people out there.

Unity does not mean surrendering your identity, regardless of how much the nationalists would have you believe it does. Scotland has been part of the United Kingdom for centuries, without surrendering their identity (despite the best historical efforts of the English). People need to stop thinking of other countries as 'foreigners' and start thinking of them as fellow human beings. And there's a lesson in their for all of us, not just the extremist nuts in Middle East and elsewhere.

Speaking for the Irish experience, and as a Brit ex-pat living there, the Euro changeover process could best be described as a qualified success. People here switched to using the Euro with hardly a blink; indeed, it has been commented on just how little nostalgia for the Irish currency there has been. As for the convenience of sharing the same currency with Europe, it's already seeing dividends for the tourist industry here - I haven't tested it myself yet, as I tend to travel to the UK :rolleyes: I have to say though that it's cool to find coins from places like Portugal, Greece and Finland turning up in your loose change - it makes the world seem a smaller place!

As for the 'problems' mentioned by JT Wayland, the reasons for Irish inflation are internal (overheating economy due to 10%PA growth for 5 years :D ) - the issue with the Euro/ECB is that the Irish Central Bank can no longer raise interest rates to pull it back in. However, that's only one way to combat inflation (which is itself being fuelled by certain specific factors that could be better controlled if the politicians had the will to do so). It's true that the ECB running monetary policy for the whole region can leave mixed feelings, but this should improve as economies harmonise more in the next 3-5 years. And Ireland is unusual in the Euro context, as the bulk of it's imports and exports are traded outside the Euro zone (mostly the UK) - it's been observed by some of the cheekier economic commentators here that Ireland would be better off joining the NAFTA too...

Oh, Querlin, the Irish issue escaping you is the Nice Treaty referendum, which the Irish voted No to, mainly because:
a) It appeared to undermine Irish claims to neutrality (not that Ireland has ever been neutral in reality, but we'll let that pass)
b) It appeared to centralise power within the EU (as if it wasn't enough already), and reduced the ability of smaller countries to SNAFU things with their veto
c)The Irish government made a complete b***s of informing the voting public exactly what the Nice Treaty was about, while certain special interest groups, such is Sinn Fein and the religious right, put their own high-profile spin on it - and interestingly, a lot of the money for the religious right's campaign appears to have come from similar groups in the US (what's their game, I wonder).

Of course, the Nice Treaty also included the legislation to begin bringing new countries into the EU, and Ireland's problem with ratifying it could have serious repercussions, which has led to some apocalyptic comments from other parts of the EU. Seems to me that some people still have problems with the concept that a referndum and a rubber-stamp are not in fact the same thing :rolleyes: :p

I'm ambivalent on Europe - I think that it has good ideas, the Euro being one of them, free trade within borders beign another. However, I already think that's it's a bureaucratic nightmare, and it's only going to get worse...

As for ID cards, it sounds like a good basic idea run amok - keep it straight and simple, with only certain state-sourced info on it (e.g. NI number and details, Driver's Licence details, etc).

On the inflation issue, the biggest problem IMHO was that some commerces took advantage of the Euro conversion to increase their prices. In France, at least, and although our governement stated otherwise, preventing or even controlling such abuse was not very feasible, so a lot of conversions were generously rounded up.
One example of that, was a restaurant I went with some friends : all the prices were integers... and given the conversion rate between Franc and Euro, this meant either all prices used to be multiples of 6.55957 before, or that they gained some Francs in the conversion.
Currently, apart from the maths Euro puts me through (dividing by 15 or multiplying by 6.5 is not always easy ;)), I see few troubles with Euro remaining around here.
And I agree we have to unite... union is what made major countries in Europe what they are.

As for ID cards, well... I'm afraid I don't have much of an opinion on the matter :o :)

kes qui se passe ? j'avoue que je n'ai pas trop compris le coup de gueule

for ID cards? that maybe on century we have it! for us , is not a probleme (in france id cards is free since 1999-2000.)

in france there are 2 other paper can substitute to id card : driver licence and passport.

What shouting, Kalamaro? No shouting here, as far as I can see :)

First off I am not a Xenophobe, but I am very Eurosceptic. For me and other Euroscpetics of all the major and minor political parties, our main concern is the Political implications of the Euro, not the supposed financial and economic benefits, (it will cost us nearly £40 billion pounds at the latest estimate to change over to the Euro). At the moment if the government messes up the economy (as the present one is increasingly doing), then we have the DEMOCRATIC right to elect a new government, by transferring CONTROL of our economy to the Eurocrats on the continent we FOREVER lose the right to control our own destiny as a country and as a people. That is why at the moment the Anti-Euro Campaign is increasingly being lead by ordinary people as well as media celebrates and not just by politicians of both the left and right.

But as for hating all things European, I must admit to being very wary of Europe and most especially it’s history and our tendency to ignore it. The real bitter truth is that the history of Europe and the Christian Faith over the last two thousand years and most especially of the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church over the lat twelve hundred years, is that it was extremely evil and very repressive. The whole of Western Civilisation for the last two thousand years has been obsessed with creating the perfect Politically and Religiously Correct Utopian State. For most of that time, the Politically Correct Utopian State was a rigid feudal state ruled over by divinely appointed king, in which everything Western Civilisation presently stands for, multi-party democracy, equal rights for women and ethnic minorities, toleration of alternative religions and other cultures, were regarded as dark satanic heresies that had to be exterminated using all and any methods necessary, including black propaganda, repression and even genocide. Especially against the Moslem world and the Greek Orthodox and Protestant Faiths.

Indeed the entire political and constitutional history of the English Speaking World has been one of rebellion against what was Politically Correct in Europe, for example, the introduction of the Common Law in the twelfth century, the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Abroath, the Reformation, the Civil Wars of the 17th and 18th Centuries, the Bill of Rights of 1689 and of course, the American Revolution.

As for the Future, another thing we MUST remember is that the last one hundred and fifty years in particular and the last five hundred years in general, has been one of Global Abnormality, in which one continent, Europe, came to dominate and enslave the World. The events of the last century have hopefully broken the power of Europe,and the old problems that have existed for centuries and millenia are re-emerging, ie, Tribal Warfare in Africa, the tensions between the West and Islam, the increasing power of a resurgent China, Global Climate Change and other Environmental potential mega-disasters. We most find new ways of dealing with this old problems, problems greatly exacerbated by the events of the last half a millenium.

Europe is now at a crossroads as to it’s future, ever since the end of the Second World War, the politically correct view has been that the future of Europe lies in creating a Socialist United States of Europe, founded on the lines of the French Fifth Republic rather than the English derived United States of America or the Commonwealth of Australia. That view of the future is being challenged not only Right Wing Parties in Europe, but more importantly by the people of Europe, who are becomingly increasingly disenchanted by what they see as an increasingly corrupt and undemocratic system, not only at EU level, but in the individual states, witness the recent events in France.

One of my greatest fears, is that if we do not heal the increasingly bitter transatlantic divide between the US and Europe, very soon, than within a generation, then there WILL be a war between the US and its allies in the English speaking world as well as the Pacific Rim and Europe (including Russia). The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO. Further more, the power of political parties has to be curbed markedly, one way is to scrap Proportion Representation types of Electoral Systems, they are not Fair for they entrench the power and positions of political parties against the rights and interests of the ordinary voters. Political Parties are a very useful tool for helping to run a democracy, they are not essential as many of the Left believe, and they can be dispensed with. We have to encourage ordinary people to become involved in politics again and unfortunately they are fed up with political dogma, so we politicians have to forget about the intricacies of obscure points of political dogma and grand ideas and concentrate on being pragmatic and practical and finding common sense solutions to their problems.

RANT OVER

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by transferring CONTROL of our economy to the Eurocrats on the continent we FOREVER lose the right to control our own destiny as a country and as a people

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I fail to see more than an opposition island/continent here. Do you think that a united economy means you lose any power on your destiny? I agree that centralized power must be closely watched. But let's not mix economical power with sovereignty.

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the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church over the lat twelve hundred years, is that it was extremely evil and very repressive

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That's true.
As has been the UK with the colonization.
As has been Japan with its expansion.
As has been the expansionists African tribes.
As has been the Soviets.
All have a way of saying "My way is better than yours". We are no exception. Not worse, not better.

That's why uniting - NOT MERGING - may help us understand each other better. Hell, I watch too much ST :)

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the politically correct view has been that the future of Europe lies in creating a Socialist United States of Europe, founded on the lines of the French Fifth Republic

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Excuse me, but I think you don't know the French 5th Republic so well. Nobody ever wanted to model a SUSE (huh, like Linux? :D) on this. It simply can't work out for a simple reason; in the 5th, almost all power is centralized in the hands of the president. That's why there has been here some talking about a 6th republic.

What you fear in your SUSE, I think, is a bureaucratical republic. I can assure you the weight of bureaucracy in France has nothing to do with the 5th republic. It's something else: it's genetic ;)

My opinion is, it's not by braking and staying as we are that we can have a chance. We have to change - but be careful thus doing.

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who are becomingly increasingly disenchanted by what they see as an increasingly corrupt and undemocratic system, not only at EU level, but in the individual states, witness the recent events in France.

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I think the Euro, the sovereignty, and the failing political class are all different things.

We just unite on the ECONOMIC level. We will retain our language, our culture (well, for any forseeable future at least - may not be in 4 centuries, with the UFP and all that :))

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The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO.

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Great. Then we'll be at the mercy of the US. Mind you, the NATO is controlled by the US. As the UN. I thought you didn't want to submit to anything? ;):):D

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We have to encourage ordinary people to become involved in politics again and unfortunately they are fed up with political dogma,

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AMEN!!!! to that.

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Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland
The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO.

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Some interesting ideas, but a few flaws, the most serious of which is the above comment; namely, that an economic pact be replaced with a military one. Where does that leave nations that espouse 'soft' neutral (i.e. Ireland) or 'hard' Neutral (i.e. Switzerland) stances in this context?

The whole focus of any increasing European integration must be based primarily on economic grounds, because ultimately all wars have an economic context at least to some degree, particularly between nation-states, and if you make the cost expensive enough then modern capitalist economies are forced to find conflict solutions that do not ruin them as economic entities. And membership of a pact with a military element implies agreement with the goals of that pact, and commitment to supporting them - it may force you to take sides when you really don't want (or need) to from a strictly national point of view. I don't necessarily agree with that, particulalrly if you're a small, economically vulnerable nation.

I also think that it's a little unfair to decry Britain as the seat of radicalism and conquerer of absolutism - I think the little matter of the French Revolution should not be overlooked ;) . Granted, politics and society in mainland Europe has developed differently to that of the British Isles, but living on an island has always insulated us from events in Europe to some degree, and one approach wasn't necessarily any better than another - after all, until the franchise was extended beyond rich landowners and the nobility, England and Scotland were little more than Monarchic Oligarchies (for want of a better description :D ).

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I think the little matter of the French Revolution should not be overlooked

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VERY good point.

The Euro: No real problem with the currency itself. The fact that the pound carries the Queen's head on it isn't a big issue to me as I'm not a Royalist. We do need to hang fire a bit until we get favourable conditions to join, but with the dollar currently down due to the Enron/WorldCom/Xerox scandals the Euro is looking pretty healthy. As long as the coins are sensible (no fiddly little things like our 5p piece, or big, ugly coins like the £2 one) then I won't have a problem. My only beef with the EU is the metric weight system they are imposing on food. As a scientist, I don't have a problem with the metric system itself, but as a cook, I find it very difficult to buy the right quantities of ingredients when all my cookbooks are in the Imperial system!

ID Cards: Apart from the obvious problem of what happens if it gets stolen, this is a tricky one. Personally, I have no problem showing people my driving licence, and I got used to having to show my passport in American bars. There should be limits on the power of the authorities to demand proof of identity however. The police should have just cause to demand to see it (suspicion of a crime, for example).

Note: wildly o.t.

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but as a cook, I find it very difficult to buy the right quantities of ingredients when all my cookbooks are in the Imperial system

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LOL! I happen to have a few cookbooks witten in English (Japanese, Indian, or otherwise exotic food) ... those are very good cookbooks that I'd hate to give up, but I always end up swearing at the units used there ;). What the hell did they need to measure everything in cups, oz., and Tbsps ?!? ;) This is especially unnerving when you have something in your pan that's on the verge of exploding if you don't get the quantities right ... all right, I'm exagerating a bit, it'll just taste awful ;).

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Originally posted by Cdr Scot II

I also think that it's a little unfair to decry Britain as the seat of radicalism and conquerer of absolutism - I think the little matter of the French Revolution should not be overlooked ;)

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Yes, since the Jacobins were such paragons of tolerance for dissenting views and such. :rolleyes: :eek: :D Absolutism isn't really conquered when you replace an Absolute Monarchy with a European version of the Khmer Rouge...

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Originally posted by Calcoran
Note: wildly o.t.
LOL! I happen to have a few cookbooks witten in English (Japanese, Indian, or otherwise exotic food) ... those are very good cookbooks that I'd hate to give up, but I always end up swearing at the units used there ;). What the hell did they need to measure everything in cups, oz., and Tbsps ?!? ;) This is especially unnerving when you have something in your pan that's on the verge of exploding if you don't get the quantities right ... all right, I'm exagerating a bit, it'll just taste awful ;).

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Heh. Most cooking isn't that picky. Granted, the chili I make for the 4th of July might explode if not watched properly, but that's what happens when you add a near critical mass of weapons grade plutonium to the mix. ;)

Aah - MILD chilli... :)

Seriously, the only spicy food I came across in the States anywhere near the level of heat I enjoy was Buffalo Style Chicken Wings (and they get you at the front of the mouth, not at the back). But you guys sure do mean steaks (plus you have the only restaurants I've ever visited that do "Me-Sized" portions...).

Well, I don't live in the UK or Europe, but I'll offer my $0.02 anyway.

Single Currency: I don't see the point of two currencies. So I think if the UK should either fully embrace the Euro, and cease circulating the pound, or it should go its own way, and stay out of the EU. The problem, of course, is that the EU is on the way to becoming an economic powerhouse, and the UK may soon not have a choice, if it wants to maintain its economic well-being. The UK would probably be better served to adopt the Euro (exclusively) sooner, rather than later.

National ID: The concept gives me the creeps. Yes, there are a number of cards both in the UK and over here that might offer many of the functions -- but none of them were created with the exclusive purpose of allowing folks to be tracked. Once you require such a card, it's a small step to requiring it to be shown for travel, for purchases, for pretty much anything. I think governments have enough power; they don't need any more.

Does that make me paranoid? Maybe. What I believe, though, is that such a card will mostly make ordinary citizens lives more difficult, and will not hinder criminals much (that's why they're criminals). I have a fundamental problem with limiting or removing freedoms because a few people abuse them. My answer is: find and punish those who abuse the freedoms. Don't take the freedoms away from everyone! That will generally only affect the law abiding; your criminals will continue unchanged. That's why they're criminals...

Fesarius raises a valid point - criminals are always going to abuse the system, so making the system more restrictive for the rest of us isn't going to help.

As an example, the US recently argued against the EU setting up their own GPS system. Among other points (none of which truly give a reason for why it shouldn't be done except it'll destroy the US monopoly on the system), the main concern was "terrorists will use it to plan attacks if it's a civilian system". Well, yes, they might. But there's nothing to stop them using the US system either - that can only be shut off if the Americans KNOW there's a problem. And as the 9/11 attacks showed, these guys will find some way of attacking that we can't anticipate. Locking out civilian access to things because they could be abused is ridiculous - kitchen knives can be used to kill people, but there are no laws about who can own one.

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Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland
[B]First off I am not a Xenophobe, but I am very Eurosceptic. For me and other Euroscpetics of all the major and minor political parties, our main concern is the Political implications of the Euro, not the supposed financial and economic benefits, (it will cost us nearly £40 billion pounds at the latest estimate to change over to the Euro).

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People in the UK should first ask themself if they really want to be in the European Union, because it is quite nebulous...

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by transferring CONTROL of our economy to the Eurocrats on the continent we FOREVER lose the right to control our own destiny as a country and as a people.

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That is a little hysterical, the union of the europe is the only way if we want to be competitive with the american goliath.

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The real bitter truth is that the history of Europe and the Christian Faith over the last two thousand years and most especially of the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church over the lat twelve hundred years, is that it was extremely evil and very repressive.

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Evil is the kind of word that mean nothing, it was maybe repressive, it was not evil... And it seem we have learned pretty well from our experience with the two World War. After the first, Europe (and the US) choose to hit hard on Germany even if all country (Italy, France, UK, US) were guilty of atrocities, the WW2 was then inevitable... After the war, everything was going as in the WW1, the victors want revenge... but it does not continue and France start bringing together with Germany, to prevent future war. That is the basis of the European Union.

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Indeed the entire political and constitutional history of the English Speaking World has been one of rebellion against what was Politically Correct in Europe

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That is not a good thing, UK is ready to compromise his own economy just not to follow Europe, they prefer to follow gently the US.

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One of my greatest fears, is that if we do not heal the increasingly bitter transatlantic divide between the US and Europe, very soon, than within a generation, then there WILL be a war between the US and its allies in the English speaking world as well as the Pacific Rim and Europe (including Russia). The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO.

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The EU scrapped ? you are fool, that is the best way to keep peace in Europe, to keep Europe strong. Sure european (exept maybne those in the UK) are not very pro-american and american not very pro-european, but what you ask is to dismantled Europe ? Europe is only a menace for the isolationist in the UK.