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The DWS did not mentoion what role the Sona played in the war. What were they Neutrals or armed neutrals? I remember hearing Sisko mention Sona raids on federation ships in an episode after ST: Insurection and that they could produce White.
Any Comments?
There was also an exchange between Damar and Weyoun during one of the later episodes concerning whether or not forces could be committed to protect the Son'a ketracel-white production operation (the conclusion was that it could not be done). This suggests to me that the Son'a were more than neutral in the war--sounds more like they were, from the Dominion's perspective, expendable supporters much as the Cardassians ultimately were.Quote:
Originally posted by Eric R.:
The DWS did not mentoion what role the Sona played in the war. What were they Neutrals or armed neutrals? I remember hearing Sisko mention Sona raids on federation ships in an episode after ST: Insurection and that they could produce White.
Any Comments?
Actually I thought that the DWS did mention the Sona as helping the Dominion set up white facilities in the Alpha Quad. I don't have my copy here, but I'll try to check in a couple of hours.
I found it (forgot I had a copy on the hard drive here), page 22 sidebar. It talks about the Son'a helping at a facility. Hope this helps http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by oops1 (edited 05-17-2001).]
Yeah I remember that reference to about the Sona White Facilities.
While they had powerful ships, I think they were just the merchant lackeys.
Plus they may not be a unified front ala Insurrection where the Feds did know they where dealing in white for the dominion.
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SIRSIG :D
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever ;)
But if you read that passage more clear it says that the Sona and the Jem'hadr defended the facility and it was the last to fall. It seems clear that the Son'a were indeed up to their "stretched" necks in the war from insurrection on. Further the events of Insurrction were to keep the Son'a out of the war which obviously it did not. With as powerful ships and capability I can't see them as a Dominion War version of neutral Sweeden or Switzerland.
I would assume the Son'a joined up with the Dominion after the whole Ba'ku fiasco.
Given the nature of the Son'a degenerative problems and the fact that they are indeed the remaints of a rebellious faction of the Ba'ku, I have always viewed them as somewhat small in number.
While they have some decent technology and some fairly powerful ships, I do not see the Son'a as being numerous and that the majority of their ships are crewed by conquered races.
With the events of Insurrection and the likely defection of some of the Son'a to heal the rift with their former friends and family, I see the fanatics being driven to more desperate extremes and being essentially mercenary and in need of resources selling themselves to the highest bidder.
Along with the projection given the nature of the war that by earning the Dominion's good will that they would be granted the boon to take back their home planet once the Dominion had conquered the Federation and removed their interference.
Regards,
CKV.
In the Price of Freedom manual it says that first contact with the Son'a was made in 2374 with the U.S.S.Tatsahr, so their involvement with the Dominion may just have been a few Son'a who joined them for business.
It also says that the Son'a have conquered two other races, the Ellorans and Tarlac. Their is no single governing body over all Son'a ships therefore each ship is treated as its own and its commander does what he wants. As for ship capabilities, the book says that their ships dwarf even Sovereign-Class( i'd be inclined to think thats a stretch) and they do use subspace weapons which can destroy ships ratherr easily.
Hope this helps.
The S'ona ships were big. They had some powerful subspace weapons because they ignored the treaties against them. But their ships were NOT powerful. The Enterprise beat them up WITHOUT A WARP CORE!
Granted the Enterprise is exceptional. But from the limited evidence we have seen so far, the S'ona are not a large galactic power.
This message has been removed on request by the
poster
I feel the Son'a ships were more powerful (and slightly bigger) than the Enterprise E. It was the Metrion (sp?) gases that E sucked up and dumped in front the the the Son'a ships which "beat them up" when they fired into it ( http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/icons/icon11.gif that was a bright thing for the Son'a to do http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/icons/icon11.gif ). The Son'a were doing a pretty good job on Enterprise before the "Riker Maneuver". So I guess in the end their ships were better than the Enterprise, but their crews were not. I do agree with you that the S'ona are not a large galactic power (even with powerful vessels).Quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
But their ships were NOT powerful. The Enterprise beat them up WITHOUT A WARP CORE!.....
the S'ona are not a large galactic power.
Let me tell you about the Son'a in my universe...
A group of aliens from a race called the Ba'ku fled their solar system approximately three hundred years ago (~2060) out of fear that their leaders would annihilate the entire populace. They traveled for an extended period until they discovered a large area of space rife with navigational hazards and spatial anomalies. They entered the region and eventually settled on a planet surrounded by a series of metaphasic rings.
As it turned out, the inherent properties of the region caused those exposed to the environment to rejuvenate and cease aging once maturity was reached. The Ba'ku rejected technology as dangerous and inherently violent, returning to a pre-industrial lifestyle.
All was well for nearly two centuries, but then a group of young men and women - many of whom were born on the Bak'u planet - attempted to overthrow their elders and once again pursue the ways of advanced technology. When they failed, the council of elders provided them with rudimentary spacefaring vessels and banished them forever.
Taking the name Son'a, a derivation of a Ba'ku word meaning "pariah", those cast out used their advanced scientific knowledge to barter for production facilities and other useful items. They formed an armada and, sometime around the year 2330, invaded the worlds of the Tarlac and Elora (?), subjugating the populations and acquiring a massive labor class as well as vast natural resources.
Adar Ru'afo, the leader of the Son'a, used the Tarlac and the Elora to assist in the construction of massive starships and numerous medical facilities that would allow them to extend their lifespans. The Son'a were a dying race; without the metaphasic radiation from their former home's ring system, they would eventually wither away and die.
Captializing on the needs of the Dominion, the Son'a constructed facilities to produce huge amounts of ketracel-white for the Jem'Hadar. This earned them huge sums from the Founders which they then used to further their own aims.
After the conclusion of the Dominion War, the Son'a approached the Federation, asking their assistance to achieve their goals. This was necessary as the planet fell within the UFP's borders and the Son'a for all their resources and their guile, could never stand against Starfleet. In exchange for their assistance, the Son'a offered the Federation all the benefits acquired from their project.
In the end, however, the Ba'ku were saved from transplantation by the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E, the Son'a were revealed, and Adar Ru'afo was killed by his own technology. While many Son'a chose to return to their people, many others chose to remain the rulers of their tiny empire, searching the galaxy for other ways to extend their lives.
[This is where I've put my own spin on things.]
The remaining Son'a, under the despotic leadership of Adar Mir'an, began correspondence with several other galactopolitical powers, offering advanced technologies in exchange for information that might eventually lead to their rejuvenation. Most of the Son'a, well over a century old, were already extremely frail. It seemed only a matter of time before they would meet their much deserved end, fading quickly into oblivion.
The Son'a, with the aid of their subjugates, actively pursued all avenues that might lead to their salvation. It wasn't until the few dozen remaining Son'a encountered an intinerant group of exceptionally advanced, highly intelligent individuals led by an alien calling himself Kurros that they truly began to regain any sembelance of hope.
Kurros and his allies offered to provide the Son'a with technologies to restore their youth and vigor in exchange for information about the United Federation of Planets. The Son'a, former allies of the UFP, turned over all information they possessed and, in exchange, Kurros' "think tank" did as they promised, designing and constructing medical devices to restore the Son'a.
Their health restored, the Son'a began a policy of reproduction to assist in resuming their activities. To that end they established extensive eugenics programs and employed advanced cloning techniques to increase their numbers.
Returning to their own space, the Son'a opened negotiations with the Romulan Senate in the hopes of taking revenge on the Federation in general and on the crew of the Enterprise-E in particular.
Using cloaking technologies gaiend through trade with the Romulans, the Son'a snuck deep into Federation space where they acquired a series of devastating weapons from the planet called Minos, former base of the so-called "Arsenal of Fredom." The plan was to attack the Ba'ku and destroy the planet and its population from orbit.
As of the year 2482 (present day in my campaign), the Son'a control a handful of systems and have begun implementing their plan to severely cripple the Federation and destroy the Ba'ku and their "traitorous" former Son'a allies in one fell swoop.
mactavish out.
Unfortunately, we really don't know how powerful the Son'a ships were since Riker never actually fired the guns at any of them. Can't check the hull strength or the shield strength, since we don't have any damage to look at.
And, the Son'a ships were set up to travel in the Briar Patch, when the Enterprise wasn't. This could artificially enhance the comparative power of the Son'a vis a vis the Enterprise.
So, Son'a ships may have such powerful shields that Phasers and Quantum torpedoes are useless, or something about the non optimization of the Enterprise prevented the firing of weaponry, or Riker is just a yutz.
Any way you look at it, we don't have much more than speculation about their power.
My personal feeling is that if they were wusses, then the Fed wouldn't have been so keen on being friends with them. They have big city ships (since they are migratory without a homeworld) with massive guns, and probably shields. My feeling is that hull strength and speed and maneuverablitily should be lower than the Fed standard, but I'm kind of just guessing here.
Alex
Quote from Peter Boyle, Tac Officer, USS Canopus, Constellation Class. "It blowed up good sir, real good."
PS: Oh yeah, Mactavish, that rocks!
[This message has been edited by Captain Blake (edited 05-18-2001).]
This message has been removed on request by the
poster
Son'a Heavy Cruiser
Class and Type: Son'a Heavy Cruiser
Commissioning Date: ~2350
Hull Characteristics
Size: 12
Resistance: 4
Structural Points: 240
Operations Characteristics
Crew/Passengers: 1200/1800
[6 pwr/round]
Computers: 6
[6 pwr/round]
Transporters: 5 personnel, 4 cargo, 4 emergency
[6 pwr/round]
Tractor Beams: 1 ad, 1 fv
[2/rating used]
Propulsion and Power Characteristics
Warp System: 8.0/9.2/9.94 (36 hours)
[2/warp factor]
Impulse System: .75 c/.92 c
[7/9 pwr/round]
Power: 300
Sensor Systems
Long-range Sensors: +2/20 light-years
[6 pwr/round]
Lateral Sensors: +2/1 light-year
[4 pwr/round]
Navigational Sensors: +2
[5 pwr/round]
Sensor Skill: 5
Weapons Systems
Type XIII Disruptor:
Range: 15/45,000/120,000/350,000
Arc: All (720 degrees)
Accuracy: 4/5/7/9
Damage: 28
Power: [28]
Type XXV Photon Torpedoes:
Number: 100
Launchers: 2 fv, 1 fv turret, 1 ad
Spread: 12
Arc: Forward or aft, but are self-guided
Range: 15/300,000/1,000,000/4,050,000
Accuracy: 4/5/7/10
Damage: 20
Power: [5]
Large Isolytic Subspace Weapon*:
Range: 10/30,000/100,000/300,000
Arc: All (720 degrees)
Accuracy: 4/5/7/9
Damage: 90
Power: [90]
* Causes a subspace tear (see Spacedock p. 69 for additional rules) on 1 on 1d6
Weapons Skill: 5
Defensive Systems:
Son'a Deflector Shields
Protection: 100/120
Power: [100]
Description and Notes
This is a typical Son'a heavy cruiser like the capitol ship commanded by former Son'a leader Adar Rua'fo.
Built using advanced technologies widely unavailable to the Federation and similar galactopolitical powers, Son'a ships are known for their massive size as well as their unusual design and illegal weapons systems. Fortunately for their adversaries, most Son'a ships are considerably smaller and less heavily armed than the heavy cruiser.
mactavish out.
I could of sworn the Ba'ku incident occurred
around DS9's "Statistical Probabilities" where there was a brief period of "Dominion negotiations" something similar to what Riker
mentioned in "Insurrection" about the diplimatic core being busy with. Until the Romulans joined the alliance ("In The Pale Moonlight") it appeared doubtful whether the Federation could hold out much longer (ie. Vreenak's comment on "peace-feelers" etc.) which made Ru'Afo's "scent of death" of the Federation comment to Admiral Dougherty all the more poignant. Am I wrong about the timeframe? Ru'Afo also pointed out to Dougherty that the Federation had been challenged over the past 24 months namely by the Borg, Cardassia and the Dominion. The Dominion War was just two years long ending in late 2375 but Ru'Afo could have also implied the earlier Klingon conflict that happened in 2372 as well.
As I understood it Weyoun, Insurrection took place during the Dominion War and have so placed it in all my campaigns.
Regards,
CKV.
Was there a time when Worf was away from DS9, at the Manzar Colony, IIRC - was this mentioned in an episode?
If so, that'd place it perfectly, since that's when Worf arrives in Insurrection and Picard gets him to delay his return to DS9...
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"Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."
Star Trek: Insurrection takes place after the Dominion War.
This is assumed based on Adar Rua'fo's comments regarding the Federation being challenged by every major power in the quadrant during the past 18 months... "the Borg, the Dominion," and so forth.
Further, the Federation accepted Regent Cuzar and her people into the fold in order to "rebuild after the war," IIRC.
I also read somewhere that it was set shortly after the Dominion War, though where I cannot recall.
mactavish out.
But after the end of the Dominion War, Worf was no longer a Starfleet Lt Cmdr - he was the Federation Ambassador to Qu'onos...
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"Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."
True enough as we witnessed Ezri, who stayed on DS9 with her new found beau Bashir, wave him goodbye as he was leaving the station for good. With the war over, Jadzia dead for about a year, and the realization that he and Ezri were just best off as good friends there was nothing to keep Worf behind on DS9. If it weren't for a few references here and there in the dialogue of "Insurrection" (and DS9's "Penumbra" episode) I can understand the viewpoint of it occurring post-war though. Personally do whatever works to your intrepretation as mactavish mentioned earlier anyway.Quote:
Originally posted by Aldaron:
But after the end of the Dominion War, Worf was no longer a Starfleet Lt Cmdr - he was the Federation Ambassador to Qu'onos...
[This message has been edited by Weyoun11 (edited 05-19-2001).]
Going off the encyclopedia for Worf's entry. It looks like Insurrection was before the last weeks of the war. Say a month before the end?
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SIRSIG :D
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever ;)
In my campaign we played the events of Insurrection as being chronologically aligned with DS9. I know it came out in December 1998. If I remember correctly, it was a little after "Siege of AR-558."
So this was way way before the end of the Dominion War, when things were still very grim but turning around for Starfleet and the allied powers.
I also remember that Worf wasn't featured much in the episodes that followed. I don't know if that was planned or just coninsidence. It was the lull when shows are repeated since everyone is out having Thanksgiving dinner or traveling to be with family for Christmas. Or like me bugging the local theatre for a copy of the movie poster and tickets to the first showing.
Hope this helps.
Insurrection was during the dominion war. As I recall, near the beginning of the movie some of the characters express frustration at not being on the front lines but instead rushing around "putting out fires" to free up other ships.
In another thread I describe in detail the sound strategic reasons for this placement of the Enterprise, counter-intuitive as it may seem.
Despite the discontinuity with Worf, I'm still convinced that Insurrection is set shortly after the conclusion of the Dominion War.
The comment made in the film is that they are tired of being kept from their exploratory duties and having to "put out brush fires" in the post-war chaos.
Further, the Son'a (as Dominion allies) would certainly never be able to "get into bed" with the UFP so easily.
Sure there are several elements that don't jive with what we learned from DS9 and other sources, but I am sure that I've read that the film was set after the war.
Of course I could be completely wrong, too. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif
What the heck... set it whenever you want; it really makes no difference to me what you do in your campaign. In my campaign, Worf was still an ambassador, but he continued to hold his Starfleet rank as well (as a courtesy). That's how I explain the apparent error in the film (if it is set after the Dominion War).
mactavish out.
Mactavish:
While you might have indeed read that somewhere, the context of Insurrection makes it clear that it is occuring during the ongoing conflict with the Dominion. The justification for rushing the 'fish-like' race at the beginning into the Federation, and the medical benefits that the Son'a medical technology would provide are both clearly stated as helping the war effort.
I to agree that Insurection occured after the war was over.
Does anyone thing Paramount plans these errors just to drive hard core fans nutty. The writers were haveing fun, the made quotes in the movie that support both the war was still going on, and that it was over. There sitting at home now laughing at us trying to make sense of it all, and Just wait till the enterprise series starts. Nitpickers get ready for alot of ST history rewrites and errors.
Christian said: The justification for rushing the 'fish-like' race at the beginning into the Federation, and the medical benefits that the Son'a medical technology would provide are both clearly stated as helping the war effort.
Where is that stated clearly? It was my understanding that they were brought into the Federation, and that the Son'a were allies, because of all that was lost during the war and that the UFP was trying to rebuild after the fact.
I just watched Insurrection again last night and found no reference of any kind as to whether it was before, during, or after the Dominion War.
I cannot imagine that a new race would be inducted into the UFP in the middle of a quadrant-wide conflict, and I find it harder to believe that they'd take the time to have a big old reception aboard the Enterprise-E while the rest of Starfleet was busy getting their butts kicked.
Again, that is just my take on things.
mactavish out.
As I understand the canon timeline, Insurrection occurs during the war. If 2374 is roughly the date of first contact then we can assume that they started negotiating right after they met them. I think the admiral in the movie at one point says to Picard that they need allies badly against the Dominion. Wasn't that what the movie was about, that a shady species was being allowed into the federation without proper investigations into their affairs.
As for how powerful Son'a ships are: I imagine trading in illegal weapons and ketracel white would make anyone filthy rich. Anyone for quarters made for kings and latinum plated floors? Selling goods during the war at 5 times the price would probably make you rich enough to modify you ship. Although you could have a ship which is significantly weaker(may have failed a couple of pirate raids).
I'd say the Son'a are more like Ferengi, although they have more pride in themselves. Ferengi ships vary greatly depending on the fortunes of their commander.
Well in the end its up to the individual narrator, in mine the Son'a and Ferengi are almost the same except they have more principles are nastier to deal with.
Where did the Baku come from orginally?
Wouldn't the Sona have a potentially large ally from their homeworld which would be suffering from enivronmental collapse or whatever was effecting it?
Just a thought I was pondering.
Brian K
I agree that Insurrection must have been shortly after the war, because why would you have a huge warship ship like the Soveriegn-class pulling diplomatic duty, when there's a war on?Quote:
Originally posted by mactavish:
Despite the discontinuity with Worf, I'm still convinced that Insurrection is set shortly after the conclusion of the Dominion War.
The comment made in the film is that they are tired of being kept from their exploratory duties and having to "put out brush fires" in the post-war chaos.
mactavish out.
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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain
Does anyone else think it's strange that the
Son'a know how to make ketracel white?
Look at how important ketracel white is to
the political stability of the Dominion.
The loyalty of the Jem'hadar to the founders
rests upon (a) genetic programming, and (b)
ketracel white. If the Son'a know how to
make ketracel white, then they've got one of
the two keys to controlling the Jem'hadar!
Is there any reason to believe that the
Founders *gave* the Son'a the formula for
ketracel white? I'd say the Founders would
guard *that* secret *very* closely indeed,
and would do just about *anything* to keep
it from spreading. The thought of the
Founders willingly telling the Son'a how to
make ketracel white, just because they (the
Son'a) can produce large quantities of it
inexpensively, strikes me as *highly*
implausible.
If the Son'a cracked the *other* key to
controlling the Jem'Hadar (their genetic
programming), things could get very ugly for
the Founders *and* the Federation...
Um, because Captain Jean-Luc "I surrender" Picard and William "Let's not use the Guns because I want to steer with the joystick and blow things up with gas to get my name on a cool maneuver." Riker were in charge of the ship. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gifQuote:
Originally posted by calguard66:
I agree that Insurrection must have been shortly after the war, because why would you have a huge warship ship like the Soveriegn-class pulling diplomatic duty, when there's a war on?
If you're pretty sure that you can't win anyways and that one ship won't make much difference either way, and by getting allies you might be able to win the war, you do what it takes to get the ally. If that means sending the Big E on a diplomatic mission to convince the potential allies that "Hey, things aren't so bad. Be our Friend. Now, could you manufacture some Quantum torpedoes for us?"
Unfortunatly, evidence inside Insurrection could go either way, during or after the war.
I personally feel that based on the "We can't give up our principals just to win the war" comments that Picard makes to the Admiral, that the war is still on.
Alex
I agree with you except the Admiral did notQuote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos:
As I understand the canon timeline, Insurrection occurs during the war. If 2374 is roughly the date of first contact then we can assume that they started negotiating right after they met them. I think the admiral in the movie at one point says to Picard that they need allies badly against the Dominion. Wasn't that what the movie was about, that a shady species was being allowed into the federation without proper investigations into their affairs.
As for how powerful Son'a ships are: I imagine trading in illegal weapons and ketracel white would make anyone filthy rich. Anyone for quarters made for kings and latinum plated floors? Selling goods during the war at 5 times the price would probably make you rich enough to modify you ship. Although you could have a ship which is significantly weaker(may have failed a couple of pirate raids).
I'd say the Son'a are more like Ferengi, although they have more pride in themselves. Ferengi ships vary greatly depending on the fortunes of their commander.
Well in the end its up to the individual narrator, in mine the Son'a and Ferengi are almost the same except they have more principles are nastier to deal with.
specifically say that they needed the S'ona
as an ally against anyone but the implication was there when Picard mumbled to the others in the turbolift that "with our ship losses to the Borg and the Dominion, Starfleet feels we need all the help we can get" or to that extent. So that's one Dominion reference right there and they need allies. Two, Riker mentions that the Ent-E and her valiant crew are out delivering olive branches because "the diplomatic core is busy with Dominion negotiations" and Picard laments "and they need us to put out another brush fire" or something like that. Since you don't negotiate with a foreign empire who surrendered to you and went back into the Gamma Quadrant this could not have occurred post-war (late 2375/early 2376-). Two shows from DS9 imply that the Federation had sent out "peace-feelers" as Vreenak termed it, "Statistical Probabilities" and "In The Pale Moonlight" all which occurred in 2374. Obviously with the recapture of DS9 the Federation/Klingon alliance was still desperate until the Romulans join in. The third time the Dominion is mentioned specifically in the movie is when Ru'Afo says the Federation has been challenged by every major power in the quadrant namely by the Borg, Cardassia and the Dominion in the last 24 months and they "all smell the scent of death on the Federation". We know the Borg attack occurred in Nov.2373 according to the Stardate interpretation and "Call To Arms" happens in the following month. Lets not forget though that the Klingons had challenged the Federation a year before (2372) that and even though Ru'Afo didn't mention them they fit under the major power category. In DS9s "Penumbra" episode circa 2375 Weyoun tells Damar to redeploy their forces chasing the Defiant to defend "the S'ona outpost on Deyos II" which had come under Federation attack.
In the novel for insurrection it is said that the war still rages on, that's why the Federation seeks all allies it can get ( this small race at the beginning of ST IX ), although they might not be ready. It is definitly in the War, because somewhere it is said that the Federation will probably destroyed by the Dominion ( think it was the admiral who said this ). Additionally it is said that ST IX is set two years after First Contact, i.e 2375, wo its within the Dominion War. :)
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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI
www.farrealms.de
Thinking about why a Sovereign-Class would be held from the front lines...I'd agree with Blake that its to show potential allies that things are looking up. Couldnt it also be because it might be only one of two? Their commissioning date is 2370, so how many can the shipyards dish out during the war, considering Starfleet put a rush order for the smaller and more heavily armed ships?
Also, since it is a flagship, its perfectly suited to raise moral in the core worlds, no one wants to risk the finest ship in the fleet. If the Dominion had an opportunity they'd most likely concentrate on it, wanting to destroy the flagship of a fleet is common ploy.
The Ketracel-White issue is interesting, the Son'as ability to make it seems powerful yet they are not a military super power. While individual ships may be strong they lack an infrastructure to produce a constant amount. Building cloning facilities would also require a large amount of resources. Now if your a raider/pirate/all-round evil guy, you probably ain't going to bother with creating Jem'Heddar soldiers and pissing off the Founders.
You do bring up a good point though...maybe they are a gamma species, don't see why the Founders didn't try to eliminate them if they knew the secrets to the white.