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Finally, my copy of Star Charts arrived this afternoon and already it is in pieces ready for indepth scanning/studying ;)
So basically now that I've got a copy of what the populace got. I can better answer any and all questions. I even have easy email contact with Geoff Mandel for any off the wall questions.
So ask away!
Myself I'm quite impressed with the final product. Its certainly come a long way from its humble beginnings.
As to the poll:
I choose good and bad points.
If I and the other contributors had gotten the beta test (ran out of time). We certainly would have changed a number of points to make it more canonical.
I rated them top notch. I'll never be able to do anything even remotely close, and there's tons of info in there that I can use in my games. I don't care if it's 100 percent accurate to canon. It looks great and there's stuff I can use.
It's a winner in my book. :)
Top notch: art production values were grand, I liked the new planetary class bit, liked the inclusion in the planets list on some of TOS planets, plces were close enough to explain the ability to get someplace quick at max warp, yet still be months away at normal speeds.
All around great product
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I'll be the first to list a critism here. Maps are way to busy for my taste. Too much info at once and what they did to the Dominion war maps was horriable too tiny to be of any use, and I have not been able to reconcil them with the larger political maps, and what do they have against foldouts by the way? However I did notice the Triangle is still there and the Klingon Fed border is fairly the same as FASA's was.
I loved it, but I'd have been willing to lose a map or two (or add a few dollars to the price tag) in return for an index...
It's like being given one of those huge road atlases of the United States and asked to find the location of every town named Marlborough, Lincoln, or Springfield... With the index pages torn out.
Oh my! Is the shoe-hunting season open already?!? :eek:Quote:
Originally posted by StyroFoam Man
Stood there and read it while the wife went shoe-hunting. Great book, wish I had more time to read it... Can't buy it now because Christmas is comming up... :D
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Ok, my three big problems with the Star Charts book.
1) Tholia was only on one of "title page" political maps, not one of the detailed ones. I was looking forward to this as I am (when I have time) working on a sector that borders Tholian Space...Unfortunately not much good to me.
2) Why is the Federation afraid of fighting a war? They completely surround all other major governments, or at least on 3 sides. According to those maps the Federation is HUGE.
3) And last, but not least....THE ROMULAN EMPIRE IS WAY TOO FRIGGIN' SMALL!!!!!! I mean smaller then the Klingon Empire????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please. As an Imperial force, going on LUG info which is about as canon as the charts are, the RSE has been around alot longer then any of the other major powers, and according to the charts it's just a 'speed bump.' ARRRGGGG! Where's my disruptor?
Ahh, I feel better now.
Thank you for your time. :D
I do have a few small criticisms: As Dan said, an index would have been nice. Just last night I was flipping pages looking for Alpha Ceti. The Dominion war maps- were they made small so readers wouldn't notice that they do not correspond with the other maps? A big (and I mean big) poster size would be nice (with lots of star labels). I know this isn't realistic nowadays, but high on my wish list are classic era maps. Also, I wish all the tiny, anonomous, filler stars had labels too! On the other hand, it would give gamers plenty of opportunity for exploring and creating their own adventures. Can you imagine how cool an interactive CD version of this would be?
I want to end this post on a positive note, because that's what the book deserves. A great job all around. I like the text color coding. Interesting to see the mix of Federation and non-fed worlds within fed space. The trade routes were a cool addition, too. I couldn't resist pulling up some "Its full of Stars" maps just to compare. Wow. My star list is definately out of date! Which brings to mind a question that I hope someone here could answer: Is there any new 3D star mapping software comparable to IFOS? I am not interested in planetarium or "sky" type programs. I like IFOS, and I'm looking for something that operates on the same principle but prettier and more powerful. Suggestions?
Good points and bad points.
For the most part, I love it. But there are a few niggling discrepancies:
1. Betazed. This is damn close to the Cardassian border and if the Dominion war maps are correct, it would be the first planet to fall in the war. It's capture certainly wouldn't put the Dominion in striking range of Federation core worlds.
2. The positioning of the Tholians. If Kirk encountered the Tholians, why weren't the Cardassians encountered earlier. (I know that there is no canonical date for this.)
I do like some of the supposition used:
The whole spralling yet small Federation really works, and explains apparent discrepancies in the series.
Trill. Was Trill really on a trade route in the 22nd Century?
The use of Klingon ship names and classes as planets, as though the Vor'cha class was named for a star system.
I would have liked to see a little more explanatory text, eg saying that the maps from the series were just graphics and bear little relation to the maps in the book, and maybe explaining why some assumptions were made.
I put "good points and bad points."
The main "good" is the presentation (artwork, graphics, etc.).
The main "bad" is WHY IS THERE NO Z+/Z- PERSPECTIVE?!
So many of the "this is too close to that" or "this empire is too big compared to that empire" problems would be avoided if there would have been side views showing things such as: The Romulan Empire expands more "galactically up-and-down" than "galactically across"; or the Klingon Empire expands more "galactically across" than "galactically up-and-down"; or Ferenginar is a couple hundred ly Z+ of Cardassia; or the Federation wraps around the Klingon Empire (and other empires) in certain sections by going above and/or below it.
It just surprises me that Mandel, having worked on "Star Trek Maps," which did have side views, would just skip them in this work (well, except for pp 18-19).
Two minor "bads" were no index, and using Romulan and Klingon ship names for system names (that seems excessively "cute").
I don't really think adding in the x,y and z axis would make any difference. The Romulan Empire would have to extend a very long way in 'x' direction to even begin to compete with the size of the Federation. Whcih would be correspondingly bigger :eek: as well.
Dave -- "Alpha Ceti"? Or were you looking for Ceti Alpha of Khan fame (I found that one :) )?
SIGs -- I have one for you....where the heck is Eminiar? (sp?) :) I was thinking it'd be on the BQ side of the Federation, but I couldn't spot it.
All-in-all, I think it'll be a nice reference book, just like the OkudaChron is for me. However, I'm now going to have to find a way to reconcile my Gorn writeups with the map.... :p
Hi
I will start off and rant by saying here in the fabulous Down Under of Australia where I reside-we do not have this book yet-it is "On Order" a mysterious limbo that can take as long year of waiting-or we can order it by the net and pay many bodgy aussie pesos for it-too many for any book.
So I'm friggin jealous and only know of this book by what you have said and some pics on the net.
I am first a romulan fan then a trek fan:)
Phantom, It pains me to say this as I recall chatting with you and know your a big fan of the best race:)
But stated by the writers (I think its moore) someone asked the sizes of the Empires during DS9 in an online Q and A
The Romulan Empire is the smallest-The Klingons were bigger with the peace love and mungbeans Feds the biggest-I had a hard time accepting this. But it works as well. Now I have not seen the book som maybe the sizes are way off-but theres my 2 cents.
Some questions to owners of the book:
Is there a planet called "D'Deridex" in the RSE?
Are the Breen on the Romulan Border?
Is there more information on Romulus or Remus-like a close up on them?
Okay first off, some very positive results.
It appears one of the first things I'll being adding to the StarCharts section of my website (www.nnsw.quik.com.au/sirsig).
Will be a planetary index, which with any luck will be up in a week or so.
Eric R: In time I certainly will be able to have some more 'toned down' maps available.
Also since I was already working on a 'zoomed' in DW map. It shouldn't be to hard to extrapolate from the charts and data.
Dan Stack: As I said in my previous post. First thing I'll do is a index :)
Phantom: Between you and me we'll get that Tholian Sector licked yet. :)
And maybe some Z axis for the rommies ;)
Dave: As Sea Tyger said, Alpha Ceti or Ceti Alpha?
As to indexs and DW maps, I'm working on it.
I've messing with Chview a bit as well. Yet IFOS is till pretty darn good.
Greg Smith: A little tweaking with warp and sectors will get you far apart worlds.
And yes the Klingon and Romulan planets named after ships was a little silly.
As to Trill, there is reference to Curzon Dax being a Federation Diplomat/Ambassador during the 2280's.
Sea Tyger: Eminar, I'll have to check when I'm at home with my maps ;)
General Velal: Unfortunately I believe Australia is due Dec/Jan. I'd be ordering it from Amazon or such like I did.
Yes there is a Romulan planet named D'deridex unfortunately.
The Breen are in fact quite a ways from the RNZ.
Thanks :)
Is there an overal map of the AQ/BQ?
Aslan: There are 4 gatefold maps that if you are delicate with, you can rip out and stick together.
I'll be laminating mine today.
Of course!Quote:
Originally posted by SIR SIG
As to Trill, there is reference to Curzon Dax being a Federation Diplomat/Ambassador during the 2280's.
You and me both!Quote:
Originally posted by SIR SIG
I'll be laminating mine today.
For those interested in star mapping software, I came across a freeware app by Winchel Chung. Locks up frequently but worth the download. Makes some beautiful charts...
go here
Unfortunately for them to line up properly, you need about a 1cm gap between the left/right sides :(
Without examining the choices closely, I thought they were in order from lowest rating to highest. I voted the last category, but I meant to give it the highest rating.
heheheQuote:
Originally posted by Cochrane
Without examining the choices closely, I thought they were in order from lowest rating to highest. I voted the last category, but I meant to give it the highest rating.
As to a planetary index, how do people want it layed out?
Do you want an exhaustive list with episode refs?
I'd have to say that episode refs would make it easier for me to hop over to startrek.com or the Okudachron for details. :) (Noth that I don't recall most everything from TOS. ;) )Quote:
Originally posted by SIR SIG
hehehe
As to a planetary index, how do people want it layed out?
Do you want an exhaustive list with episode refs?
Working on it.
I've logged every star ref upto the late 40 pages.
Should have something on the net within the week.
So Sig, is there any particular reason to send you personal messages rather than talk maps on the boards?
I'd like to see descriptions of all the Nebulae and Clusters on the Federation Foldouts. The sectors where they are located may be a good start for sector descriptions. I'd like descriptions of all the Ferengi worlds, and details about the Patriarchy, First Federation, and Tzenkethi, including the systems they control. Details of the sectors with known Starbases may be good to have when a choice must be made between sectors.
I gave it the highest rating.This book, along with the Encyc. have proven to be as valuable for my game's design as the Decipher rulebooks.Whenever I need a stellar or planetary classification I go straight to SC,bypassing the NG.
Visually the book is very impressive.And just enough "flavor " text to make it interesting.And thanks to all involved in it's creation for not having the Ringworld,Riverworld,Kzin,ect. represented like they were in ST Maps.The diagrams of the individual systems and the map of Bajor were outstanding.I'll integrate those into my game also.
My series started in the sector containing Bortas(as said before, named after a ship).Bortas was Gowron's flagship so for gaming purposes it is the homeworld of the house of Gowron.It worked and I love coming up with explanations for stuff like that.
SIR SIG:Have you had a chance to see if the starbase descriptions in SOM give any hint as to whether they correspond with their locations in SC?A Z+/Z- chart would be awesome(maybe part of your index).
Any tips on how to do this? It looks like I'll have to remove the back cover to get those fold-outs detached right at the spine. The inner 1/8-1/4 inch of that last foldout seems to be glued to the back cover.Quote:
Originally posted by SIR SIG
Aslan: There are 4 gatefold maps that if you are delicate with, you can rip out and stick together.
I'll be laminating mine today.
My wife works at a custom framiong shop, so I'll be getting mine mounte don foam-core and laminated! :D
Wee!
art!
Well, I just emailed you on this, but now that it's up for discussion:Quote:
Originally posted by SIR SIG
hehehe
As to a planetary index, how do people want it layed out?
Do you want an exhaustive list with episode refs?
Era-specific maps, showing the growth/appearance of the Fed and various powers, empires, and the like.
A list of world/systems travelled to and/or First Contacts for each era (Worlds Visited and/or First Contacts in TOS, Worlds Visited in TNG, etc). This could be made from the index you seem to be working on.
A list of Federation members and the dates they joined. That could be organized by era, too.
See, I'm gonna be running a c. 2299 game, and.... :D
I'll second that. Sounds like a lot of work, though, and wouldn't it just be speculation. I suppose you could ref a real star map, but still...Quote:
Originally posted by Lowly Uhlan
[...]A Z+/Z- chart would be awesome(maybe part of your index).
Ah, heck, just make a CD-ROM with 3D, rotatable, zoomable, click-for-more-deatil maps. :)
I liked it. Works for the gaming stuff just fine, especially since the distances between points in Trek deviates according to plot necessities. The planet classification chart is cool; started using it, instead of the game ones.
To each his own...
Uhlan: The Kzin are represented as The Patriarchy. It would be hard to deny this. But maybe you can. :)
Glad someone likes the system diagrams, I sure don't care for them. :)
I would have assumed House Gowron would be based on Qo'nos, but that's just me. :)
I checked the SB's between the SOM and SC. Some of them fit pretty well, some don't.
Kirok: I agree on era maps and series ship itineraries. I assume you noticed the list of Federation worlds on the first foldout and that you simply want dates and eras added. I wonder how many places that appear to be in the same sector actually are.
Does this make me Sig's Padawan? :D
Wow!
I've been off the net a few days and hadn't even seen this thread resurrected.
When I'm online at home I'll answer properly. Still at work here ;)
As to the private messages etc. I reply soon, again not being onlin recently. :)
No Cochrane, talk on the boards or email is just fine.Quote:
Originally posted by Cochrane
So Sig, is there any particular reason to send you personal messages rather than talk maps on the boards?
I'd like to see descriptions of all the Nebulae and Clusters on the Federation Foldouts. The sectors where they are located may be a good start for sector descriptions. I'd like descriptions of all the Ferengi worlds, and details about the Patriarchy, First Federation, and Tzenkethi, including the systems they control. Details of the sectors with known Starbases may be good to have when a choice must be made between sectors.
Nebula descriptions? As class, size etc?
As to the Ferengi Alliance, how many worlds do you think there would be? There would be a number of worlds in the 'space' they claim.
As to the rest, it would be pure fan speculation unless we can draw on FASA or such.
I am currently among other projects working on a master sector list.
Thanks for the good rating on StarCharts :)Quote:
Originally posted by Lowly Uhlan
I gave it the highest rating.This book, along with the Encyc. have proven to be as valuable for my game's design as the Decipher rulebooks.Whenever I need a stellar or planetary classification I go straight to SC,bypassing the NG.
Visually the book is very impressive.And just enough "flavor " text to make it interesting.And thanks to all involved in it's creation for not having the Ringworld,Riverworld,Kzin,ect. represented like they were in ST Maps.The diagrams of the individual systems and the map of Bajor were outstanding.I'll integrate those into my game also.
My series started in the sector containing Bortas(as said before, named after a ship).Bortas was Gowron's flagship so for gaming purposes it is the homeworld of the house of Gowron.It worked and I love coming up with explanations for stuff like that.
SIR SIG:Have you had a chance to see if the starbase descriptions in SOM give any hint as to whether they correspond with their locations in SC?A Z+/Z- chart would be awesome(maybe part of your index).
Good idea for Gowron's House home planet!
As yet I haven't purchased the Ops manual. Down the track I will. In the mean time can you email a more comprehensive description on the Starbases then you did originally. So I can draw some conclussions for there locations. Thanks.
Very Gently ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Kirok
Any tips on how to do this? It looks like I'll have to remove the back cover to get those fold-outs detached right at the spine. The inner 1/8-1/4 inch of that last foldout seems to be glued to the back cover.
My wife works at a custom framiong shop, so I'll be getting mine mounte don foam-core and laminated! :D
Wee!
art!
I did the best job I could. And I would rate the finished laminated job a 5/10 for quality.
They don't line very well at all. Infact I found a 1cm gap to be a good size to line them up.
Although I may have had poorly cut maps in my copy.
I'm certainly not pulling apart my signed free copy from Geoff Mandel apart to prove that point either :D
Email answered ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Kirok
Well, I just emailed you on this, but now that it's up for discussion:
Era-specific maps, showing the growth/appearance of the Fed and various powers, empires, and the like.
A list of world/systems travelled to and/or First Contacts for each era (Worlds Visited and/or First Contacts in TOS, Worlds Visited in TNG, etc). This could be made from the index you seem to be working on.
A list of Federation members and the dates they joined. That could be organized by era, too.
See, I'm gonna be running a c. 2299 game, and.... :D
The Era based maps a re a good idea and would be a good ref for early years based campaigns such as yours :)
The other 2 might be best in a spreadsheet perhaps for muliple fields.
Other then real stars, the rest of the Z axis would be Astonomy based guess work with a trek idea of locations :)Quote:
Originally posted by Kirok
I'll second that. Sounds like a lot of work, though, and wouldn't it just be speculation. I suppose you could ref a real star map, but still...
Ah, heck, just make a CD-ROM with 3D, rotatable, zoomable, click-for-more-deatil maps. :)
Still a 3d environment or atleast 2d and the z cordinates is something I've thought about for a while.
I believe Ktasay has mad a good start on a 3d cordinate listing. He has a doc file on the fedsize webpage (follow sig line, link and then links pages).
Heck if there was Software better then IFOS and Chview to represent 3D then I'd be doing that all day :D