Ultimate Trek

Recently, there has been considerable speculation on whether Star Trek is dying...certainly the low box office of Nemesis and the poor ratings of Enterprise seems to hint at this, so the question becomes: Can Trek be revitalized?

I believe so...look at Marvel Comics, for example...using their "Ultimate" line, they have revitalized their most famous characters, making them fresh and new; it has been an unqualified success. I think what Trek needs is this kind of "rebirth". Start the Trek universe anew...incorporate Classic elements but in a whole new setting. Make a more consistent and contemporary universe.

OK, enough of my ramblings....what are your thoughts on this, people?

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While I don't disagree with Styro's assessment, I think that's oversimplifying things a bit.

Trek is a TV show. As such you need money to make it and it's reasonable to expect that the people investing money are not satisfied with just breaking even (?). People want to make money with the work they do.
Such is the nature of the beast. If you can produce quality while making money - great. If not, well at least you have the money to pay your bills.

While I agree that Ultimate!Trek would be interesting. I might even run a campaign like that one day, I wouldn't watch a weekly TV show like that. It'd be even more self-referential than the current series.

And that's the last thing Trek needs right now, IMO.

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Originally posted by Liz Not Beth
What's wrong with it the way it is? :confused:

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No-one's watching.

Why is it everytime someone starts a thread about the problems with Trek everyone who has no problem with it posts?

I am not criticizing, just observing. It is a weird thing.

I am all in favour of this idea.

It is always fun to exercise of speculative fiction :)

So what did you have in mind?

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Originally posted by AslanC
Why is it everytime someone starts a thread about the problems with Trek everyone who has no problem with it posts?

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It's probably related to the similar notion that whenever someone starts a thread about Enterprise, everyone who hates it posts... ;)

Personally, I'm of two minds when it comes to an 'Ultimate Trek' concept. On the one hand, I think that it could present Trek in a new and interesting light, free from a lot of the confines that Trek now has to operate in.

On the other hand, though, I can't honestly see how it would be accepted by the more ardent fans (like many from TrekRPG, for example). I mean, the basic premise would seem to be the prelude to a fan war, as it would take the continuity that fans fuss and fight over and toss it aside. I'm certain that we can all recall the hotly debated canon issues of the past (and the ones from Enterprise). Heck, people made a fuss about Picard's bald Academy picture from Nemesis...how can people who have trouble with such a minor triviality such as that be expected to tune into a series like Ultimate Trek.

Generally, I avoid posting on threads like this because, invariably, I write something that seems to strike someone the wrong way, and I think that's a tell-tale sign about the nature of Trek. Fans (such as those found here) are passionate about Trek, and the nature, vision and direction of Trek. I can't honestly fathom how there can be a new Trek series that will please all parties involved but, notwithstanding that, I think that a series like 'Ultimate Trek' would be one worth giving a shot. How it would be done, and what it might cover, though, is anyone's guess.

Perhaps, to be more 'mainstream', we could look towards shows that have had long-term, major network popularity, and find a way to give it a Star Trek twist.

Just some thoughts...



Greg

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Wow, Styro, that's an impressive list...you must have put a lot of time into thinking of ways to make my suggestion seem utterly moronic...

I also find it odd that you think that there's nothing wrong with Trek, yet, if I recall correctly, you're often one of those who chime in on the Enterprise threads with your disdain for the show. It leaves me to wonder, then, if you think that there's nothing wrong with Trek, what's your problem with Enterprise?

Me, personally, I'm satisfied with the current state of Trek. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in new concepts (like Ultimate Trek), but I'm not ready to scrap what's currently going on (like Enterprise).

As an aside, right before I looked at this thread, I looked at Sytro's "Is TrekRPG.net Dying?" thread, and I saw Dan's response wherein he 'handed Sytro a mirror'. Now, I may be misinterpreting here, but I'd have to agree about taking a good long look, because I get the feeling that, in a lot of cases, unminced words and sarcastic tones might leave people second-guessing about whether or not they want to post. For myself, there's a lot of times I start to write a post, and then stop and erase what I've written, because I don't think that it's going to be taken in a constructive way, or because I just don't want to read a stream of negative comments about what I've posted.

Now, I've got nothing against genuine, constructive criticism, and I'll give it as good as I get it, but, when someone takes an idea of mine and twists it around, with an attempt to create a less-than-fair result, I take exception to that.

That's the feeling that I'm getting here, in this thread. I tossed out a suggestion based on the topic, and, in my opinion, got mocked for it. To me, that's not cool...at all.

Perhaps it's a combination of holiday pressure and general aggravation, but Styro's post just rubbed me the wrong way and pushed a button, I guess. I'm going to take a couple of days off from the boards to clear my head, and then I'll be back.

By the way, as a general rule, I have nothing against Styro or anyone else here, and I may have misinterpreted his post. If I did, then I wholeheartedly apologize for any harsh words on my part, but I still feel that the core message of the post is valid, in any event.



Greg

When I proposed the idea of Ultimate Trek, I did not envision scrapping Classic Trek at all; rather, I was thinking of how to make Trek more relavent to today's audiences while still maintaining the spirit of the series. After all, while Marvel is publishing its Ultimate books, its also still printing Classic books as well. The idea of Trek IMHO is still quite viable. Ultimate Trek is my response to the question "How do you make Star Trek more appealing to mainstream audiences while still staying faithful to the ideals of Trek and appealing to the hardcore fan as well?" A good example of this can be found where I got my Ultimate idea from: comics. Many comics characters (Superman,Batman,Spider-Man) have been reimagined to fit into today's world. I personally think that for Trek to thrive, it needs a similar reimagining; if not a new universe, maybe at least a "Crisis on Infinite Treks" where the Trek Universe is given a cosmic overhaul to resolve those more blatant inconsistencies.

I'm a big fan of Marvel's Ultimate line. Why?

Because over the past twenty or so years I've been a moderate Comics fan. Don't collect every issue of every book, don't know what happened in Issue 126 of Amazing Spider-Man. But I know who Spider-Man is. It works, it returns the characters to their core. Spider-Man is again a nerdy high school student, the X-Men are a bunch of youngsters recruited by Professor Xavier, fighting the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. They recapture the legend while eliminating the baggage. In so doing, they can re-realize the storylines for the modern age.

Would it work for Trek? Like all things, it depends. A big issue would be the quality of the writing and the acting.

But who do people think of with Star Trek - Captain Kirk and Captain Picard. Moreso Captain Kirk in my opinion. And Mr. Spock. When comedians spoof Trek it's usually the classic Trek. It has a place in the American consciousness.

I would be very interested to see a new Star Trek, starting fresh. You could still use all the aliens of TNG and DS9, just have Kirk and company meet them. How many times has the first encounter of Lex Luthor and Superman been shown on the screen, from the George Reeves TV show to Christopher Reeve. From Superboy to Lois and Clark to Smallville. It can work on television.

I'm not sure it would work for Trek, as Trek ages ago steered away from that course with Star Trek: The Motion Picture. However both Marvel (Ultimates line) and DC (Crisis on Infinite Earths) have shown it can be done, even with a long-established piece of intellectual property.

Personally I'd tune it. It would appeal to me because though it would return to basics, it would also feel new. I think Enterprise has the back to basics feel, but, even as a fan, it doesn't quite feel new, quite possibly because it is constrained by nearly forty years of Trek-canon.

And I think it would have a shot at recapturing a more general audience, something I think Trek desperately needs to do.

In AslanC's thread I mentioned that in my opinion Trek needs to evaluate all of its "sacred cows". This would be an example of so doing. I'm not sure it would work, but I would certainly not dismiss it out of hand.

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I think this sort of thing would be the utter death of Trek. This trend is the single biggest reason I stopped collecting comics 15 years ago when it first started snowballing...

Not sure what trend you are talking about, since the Ultimates is a year old at best.

Are you talking about the Crisis?

Granted I miss the multiple-earths, but the Crisis was well done IMHO.

I suspect Owen is indeed referring to Crisis, which was mid-80's.

I actually see Owen's point and concede he might be right. I think it would likely be a good thing, but that would be heavily dependent on the creative team. While I have hopes it would revitalize Trek (both dramatically and in popular culture), the failure of such an exercise quite likely would end Trek.

I personally feel that this is a great idea... I posted something about it on the "Is Trek Dying" thread.

I think that basically a "remake" of classic trek would work very well... but B&B should not be involved. While enterprise is a decent show, there is nothing "new & exciting" about it. The stories tend to be the old tried & true, and there is no new way of looking at it.

"Ultimate" Trek should be a new way of looking at the old... after all, the Movie "Batman" was very different than the old '60's tv show, and how many versions of "Dracula" have been done. With the right cast & creative team, and a healthy respect for the source material, it could be a great thing.

Or it could crash like lead balloon. It would depend on the talent.

My twin coppers...

H.

This poses a problem. If the PTB went back and just said lets do a Ultimate Star Trek. Would they stick to the original premise or would they 're-imagine' it. I am not trying to point fingers. But the problems that arise when a series is redone could spell disaster for any good Series.

-Rant mode-

Lets look at some of the changes to another series that was out in the 70's along with the original Trek. BSG.

The 're-imagined' version has a few minor changes.

1. All of the characters names have been changed. I.E. Apollo is now Lee Adama, call sign Apollo.

2. There in a rift between Apollo and his father.

3. Starbuck is now a angry female.

4. Boomer is now female. It is still in undisclosed if she is still black.

5. Boxey is adopted by Boomer.

6. Many other favored characters have not been mentioned. I.E. Sheba, Cassi, Athena.

What will they do to Trek if they decide to remake it.

I shudder in fear of the current ideas on how to fix the problem. Especially since there was now problem to begin wiht.

-/rant mode-

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Originally posted by Silverthorne

Lets look at some of the changes to another series that was out in the 70's along with the original Trek. BSG.

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You mean the one that is being produced by Ron D. Moore, who is responsible for making the Klingon culture come alive in both TNG and DS9 (where he was a co-executive producer)?

For that series, I don't mind the remake, it was just one series with a follow-up series that I would like to forget but still can't to this day (GALACTICA: 1980).

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What will they do to Trek if they decide to remake it.

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Probably when I no longer walk the earth, or that 10 years or more have gone by since we've seen the last TV series or film. To remake by then, one would explore the depth of the character, including the relations with the fellow crewmembers and family. We might even explore the minor cast so they can be included as the ensemble, from Hikaru Sulu's life on the colony to Uhura's choice to become a starfleet officer.

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Originally posted by Liz Not Beth
What's wrong with it the way it is? :confused:

Leave it alone. If you don't like it, watch somthing else or go to FLARE. :D

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Ditto. Trek is "making money..." I checked a few days after Nemesis released and it was No. 2 in the box office or something like that. Nemesis was just released at a bad time... I've got to wonder which idiot at Paramount decided to release it just a few days for The Two Towers came out.

Trek is definitely "making money..." just not enough money to satisfy those studio executives. Apparently they're doing the same thing NBC did which is look at the ratings and assume that nobody is watching the show.

Have they noticed how all of the Trek shows that have been on a network as opposed to syndicated have done poorly in ratings? You think they'd take the hint.

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Originally posted by erhershman
Ditto. Trek is "making money..." I checked a few days after Nemesis released and it was No. 2 in the box office or something like that. Nemesis was just released at a bad time... I've got to wonder which idiot at Paramount decided to release it just a few days for The Two Towers came out.

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Yeah Number 2 on the weekend it came out, losing to "Maid In Manhattan". Then the next week it dropped liike a rock.

Like it or not, Trek is losing steam and fast.

Die hard fans could only muster enough to get it into number two behind a throw-away romantic comedy.

As of the 22nd of Decmeber (this weekend isn't in yet at Variety)

1 LORD OF THE RINGS: TWO TOWERS $62.0
2 TWO WEEKS NOTICE $14.3
3 MAID IN MANHATTAN $10.7
4 GANGS OF NEW YORK $9.5
5 DRUMLINE $7.1
6 THE WILD THORNBERRYS $6.0
7 THE HOT CHICK $4.6
8 STAR TREK: NEMESIS $4.4
9 HARRY POTTER CHAMBER SECRETS $4.4
10 DIE ANOTHER DAY $4.0

I will be surprised to see it not drop to 10th or even off the charts after this weekend.

Drumline? The Hot Chick?


At this pace, they will be lucky to make any domestic box office profit. Foreign box office will be higher and probably they will good money on DVD and Video next year.

In the entertainment business this poor a showing is a clear indicator that the franchise has run its course and either needs a revitalization of some kind, or to be put down.

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Originally posted by erhershman
Have they noticed how all of the Trek shows that have been on a network as opposed to syndicated have done poorly in ratings? You think they'd take the hint.

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Didn't DS9 air in Syndication? I think it did and it had poor ratings as well.

TNG was the only first run Star Trek show to have strong ratings (usually number one in it's syndicated market).

DS9 was considered a ratings failure by the Studio. Aside from the fact that Voyager and Enterprise are UPN shows and therefore carry that support, they have both had lower ratings than other shows that have been cancelled on their own and other networks.

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Originally posted by AslanC

DS9 was considered a ratings failure by the Studio.

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:rolleyes:

This just confirms my already steadfast belief that the Studio and audience like me are not of one mind. DS9 was the best one that tops TNG.

The bunch of suits at Paramount and at Star Trek franchise management do not have their finger on the pulse of their audience. They're completely clueless, IMNSHO. :mad:

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Originally posted by REG
[BThe bunch of suits at Paramount and the Star Trek franchise management does not have the pulse on audience. They're completely clueless, IMNSHO. :mad: [/B]

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But REG, more people watched TNG than DS9. You can't blame the studio for that.

The fan base just wasn't there. The numbers for DS9 were much lower than TNG.

That means the fans weren't watching.

Let's get back to the idea of an Ultimate Trek series...being a collector of Marvel's Ultimate X-Men series, I can say that this would be an interesting path to follow...

Kirk and company in the current Trek universe....c'mon folks...I know you can get this rolling...


I'll start it off with a change to the Enterprise itself...why not go to the opposite end of the spectrum and say that NCC-1701 isn't a Sovereign-class...but instead it's a Defiant?

Next?

I disagree with that choice of ship, the enterprise is the Queen of the Fleet, she has to be big and powerful, every ship called Enterprise is always the best Starfleet has to offer (even that NX-01 thing).

I say either a Sovie or a movie gen Ent, as those are the best looking IMHO.

Aslan, I understand your reasoning, I really do...

but the idea of the Ultimate style is to take something that's been established and fully change it...

Hence my suggestion...

[An example from the Ultimate X-Men storyline...in the standard X-men universe, Jean Grey is an adult, well-versed in the use of her powers...

In the Ultimate universe, Jean Grey is a young punk rocker girl just learning the scope of her talents.]

When I said the Ultimate version of the Enterprise was a Defiant, that was something to start with...nothing says further on in the story that it couldn't become a Galaxy or Sovereign...things evlove, as did the Enterprise...

Well to be honest I have read ultimate X--Men and Spider-Man and didn't like either. I really liked the Ultimates though.

I disagree on the ship, but won't argue it.

Aslan, Aslan, Aslan...

I wasn't trying to create any arguments...

I was just throwing something out in order to get the ball rolling, that's all.

No worries dude didn't take offense.

Please continue :)

starfleet uniforms from TNG's "Darmok' with strips down pant legs, UFP seal inside of Starfleet seal and the pips at the shoulder instead of the neck.

TOS

2164

USS Enterprise NCC-01

Constitution Class (ala DS9's "Trials and Tribblelations" with warp nacelles from NX-01 and glowing nav deflector and impulse engines.)

First Officer- Hikaru Suru

Security Chief- Nyota Uhuru

Helm- Pavel Checkov

Scotty always had mustache

more things to do for all the characters

TNG

2288

USS Stargazer
Ambassador Class

Helm- Deanna Troi (liked the command testing, her piloting the Enterprise, the Betazoid officer in Voyager's "Caretaker" and Ezri changing to Command in DS9 relaunch)

Science Officer- Data (some books list him as thus. Also his job is like Spock's. On DS9 Jadzia was the Science Officer and Miles was the Chief of Operations?! On Voyager Harry's station was in the same place as Spock's was on the refitted Enterprise.)

Security Chief- Worf
always at pony tail

Chief Engineer- Geordi LaForge
never lost his VISOR

Chief Medical Officer- Beverly Crusher

Romulans look like Vulcans but with the costumes from TNG

Klingons look the way they do in TNG's 6th season

Klingons and Romulans act the way they do on TNG/DS9

Klingons never got cloak tech

keep hand phasers from "The Motion Picture' and "The Wrath of Khan"


2389

DS9

Uss Defiant
Sovereign Class

Sisko always had beard and rank of Captain

Shar looks like the Andorians on "Enterprise"


2401

SCE..........

See? Now this is a start!