Printable View
I recently watched 'Bowling for Colombine' and have to say that movie is very interesting. Micheal Moore as the skill to aks critical questions without getting respectless our impolite.
I also think he has some interesting ideas about the gun-murder problem and in fact think he is right - it matches quite fine with 'Hobbes' theories, one actually has to say sadly.
However I wonder what the others think of it?
Michael Moore makes a few points in his video, despite the somewhat biased way it portrays gun owners.
However, overall, Moore is pretty much a jerk. He said some really offensive things in some speeches lately, such as that the people on the planes that hit the WTC were "sheep."
I'd have to say that I consider Moore to be the Left's version of Rush Limbaugh... but less happy.
whats the movie about, I have not heard anything about it.
I've heard it mentioned a number of times but have not seen it. Could someone explain the points/issues it raises (in as non-opinionated a manner as possible)?
When did Moore refer to the victims of 9/11 as Sheep?
I follow this guy pretty closely and never heard that one before.
What did I miss?
Actually, sheep was not an exact quote.
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=366725
Moore also plays fast and loose with the truth, frequently:Quote:
Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the planes on 11 September were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody
http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_a...rtnum=20021208
Michael Moore is pretty much the Rush Limbaugh of the Left.
In other words he makes a few solid points, attacks a lot of weak points (and HORDES of Straw Men) and comes up with few, if any, answers to his own questions.
I try to ignore both of them.
I wouldn't take anything Mr. Moore has presented as being America.
I'd like to thank Fist of Two for pointing out this Andrew Sullivan. I peticularliy liked this article
http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_a...rtnum=20030121
America is too diverse to be summed up.
This is the link to the website. Most of the interesting things can be found there.Quote:
Originally posted by Chang
whats the movie about, I have not heard anything about it.
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/
I have seen the movie and looked up the summary of recent US foreign policy. You can find it in the library section. Since its heading is "What a wonderful world" I played the song while reading it (I believed they used the same song in the movie).
This makes it feel even worse.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Stack
I've heard it mentioned a number of times but have not seen it. Could someone explain the points/issues it raises (in as non-opinionated a manner as possible)?
The movie makes a case study of the Colombine massacre and Moore tries to fnd some answers why things like that happen.
He asks different people and takes a look at US and other countries more violent part of the culture.
E.g. he speaks with the producer of 'Cops' and visits a militia camp. He also does an interview with Charlton Heston at the end and pays a visit to the K-Mart-HQ together with two students of Colombine High, who were hit by 'K-Mart'-Bullets.
Using the example of Colombine, Moore raises the question, why the US have such a high death toll by gun-murders. several times higher than e.g. in Canada, Germany and ( with the lowest one ) Britain.
He asks different people what they think the reasons are, e.g.
1) High amount of weapons
2) Black people are bad ( one girl actually says that explicitely ), because they are poor
3) Violent History
He shows that, e.g. Canada has no less weapons than the US, but have only around 300 deaths a year - compared to the 12000 of the US.
He points out other poor countries where things like that do not happen and doubts that a violent history is the reason as others do have it as well ( e.g. Germany ).
During his 'investigations', he shows that e.g. the massacre in Flynt (?) would maybe not have happend if the 6-year old boy would have had his mother at home. And questions if its is right to have mothers of such young kids force to take two jobs to get the welfare paid and things like that.
In the end he comes to the conclusion that the reason for the high amount of violence is simply fear. In Canada nobody locks his door ( he tried it out ), although people own weapons as well. But he sees that the media concentrate more and more on shows which let people frighten, e.g. Cops and such. Whenever you turn on the TV, there are reports about murderers and the like.
He manages to even silence the most prominent people with simple questions, that is fascinating. E.g. Charleton Heston had no answer why he had a loaded weapon under his pillow, like the father/ uncle? of McVain. They just stated it were their right.
Heston had no answer as well why he held a NRA speech the day after the Colombine and after the Flynt massacre as well.
I actually think he is quite unbiased and lets most of the interview uncommented - he just asks the questions. He as well asked a wide range of people, people of the street, police officers, managers, etc..
His ideas of fear being the driving force behind that murders fits Hobbes ideas of a society very well. Hobbes said that fear lets you gather more and more power, to prevent others from have power over you. A weapon is an easy tool of power. High amount of fear lets a society eventually break, or prevents it from coming to existence and essentially leaves a state of war.
Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
He asks different people what they think the reasons are, e.g.
1) High amount of weapons
2) Black people are bad ( one girl actually says that explicitely ), because they are poor
3) Violent History
He points out other poor countries where things like that do not happen and doubts that a violent history is the reason as others do have it as well ( e.g. Germany ).
But Germany's past violence is quite different from America's past violence. Germen violence was state violence i.e. war where as American violence was criminal in origin a very important difference. One is controlled the other is not, one is part of a group the other is individual.
Quote:
I actually think he is quite unbiased and lets most of the interview uncommented - he just asks the questions. He as well asked a wide range of people, people of the street, police officers, managers, etc..
Obviously you never saw the obnoxious SOB on Bill Mier's Politically Incorrect. and lets don't forget any interview is edited to show the interviewers angle on the questions a two hour interview is often reduced to but 3 minutes worth of showed film.
You're not kidding. Micheal Moore is one of the most... Iriating people currently out there. Rude, crude and socially unexceptable as they come. He's been known to ask a leading question to get something and then edit the interview with one questions answers going to a diffrent question to make the person look like something he or she is not.
As a Canadian, I wish this were true. The only thing that statistics show is that the higher the population density, the greater the crime rate. I bet he didn't mention that per capita, Canada has more knivings than the US. Does that mean that Canadians are just a little more barbaric than Americans? I don't think so.Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Using the example of Colombine, Moore raises the question, why the US have such a high death toll by gun-murders. several times higher than e.g. in Canada, Germany and ( with the lowest one ) Britain.
He shows that, e.g. Canada has no less weapons than the US, but have only around 300 deaths a year - compared to the 12000 of the US.
I also read an article on one of the British sites that since the last round of gun laws, violent crimes using guns has increased by 40%.
Ever wonder about statistics? Ever notice that they can be slanted to prove anything you want?
ROTFLMAOPMP! And our streets are paved with gold, it rains Coke Classic and everyone knows that Santa Claus is a Canadian!Quote:
In Canada nobody locks his door ( he tried it out ), although people own weapons as well.
Actually since the Marc Lapine incident (I would prefer to refer to it in a way to not give him the publicity but I can't spell the name of the school) our government has over reacted to appease a small vocal lobby.
Okay, yes I own guns. Three heirlooms, two have never been fired and one hasn't been fired in 20 years. I do not hunt, don't see any purpose in it. I don't have ammunition in my house. These are heirlooms!
But our government forces me to licence them (No problem), register them (Basically no problem except that they have mismanaged this to the cost of $1 billion) and they give the police the authority to enter my house and remove any guns without warrant or probable cause based on my being registered. I do not have to be charged with a crime or suspected of committing a crime. If you don't like me, you can go to the police and poof no more guns.
Four months ago there was a gangland shoot out in Edmonton. One gang member was killed on site and several weapons were recovered. Surprising thing was they were all restricted weapons that no one can legally own in Canada. So our gun control laws sure worked there! Yay, Canada!
Unbiased? As a previous poster said, yup just as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh and (I'll add) Nancy Pelossi. I took a class on surveys. The first few classes dealt with how to set up a series of questions that sound neutral but however answered will prove your point. I've even laughed when Angus Reid called to see if I was happy with our dictator. The questions were severely slanted.Quote:
I actually think he is quite unbiased and lets most of the interview uncommented - he just asks the questions. He as well asked a wide range of people, people of the street, police officers, managers, etc..
Sorry Capt Matt, I really wanted to ignore this thread but I hate being used as an example incorrectly. I promise to try and not post anymore on it. Just remember the lines from Ladyhawke were Matthew Broderick promises to turn over a new leaf. ;)
Please note that in the previous post I referred to Capt Matt. It seems that I have inadvertantly promoted Lt Cmdr Matt two grades. I would like to extend my apologies and say, as a mitigating factor, I thought you were promote here. Other than becoming a moderator. :D
Quote:
Originally posted by Eric R.
But Germany's past violence is quite different from America's past violence. Germen violence was state violence i.e. war where as American violence was criminal in origin a very important difference. One is controlled the other is not, one is part of a group the other is individual.
I think the violent history Heston spoke of, was the 19th century, which was quite violent even by the state. However the main fact meant is simply that people are simply 'used' to violence no matter the source of it.
Gun crime in Britain is on the increase. However, despite many people on these boards telling me that Britain has a huge buncha illegal firearms doing the rounds, I still don't feel the need to arm myself or worry about walking down the street at night. If anything, I'd be more concerned about meeting some punk with a flick-knife (stabbings are more common around my area - usually kids stealing mobile phones...).
Whilst I do lock my door at night, it's more because I live in a block of flats and I'm worried about one of my neighbours coming in drunk and mistaking my door for his own...
It was 1997. Just about August if I recall correctly (it has been a few years).
I was working as a bouncer at a Hip-Hop club in Vancouver. That night we had a couple of bad guys show up at the club who had it out for each other. Yes they were black, but that doesn't really matter.
Outside they trotted and the Tech 9s' (an illegal weapon in Canada, so must have been smuggled across our border fro the US) and opened fire at each other. In classic stance, the crowd lost their minds and stampeded back into the bar as we tried to keep a semblance of order.
A weight hit into me and something warm covered my face. I turned and saw the Police running up the street, firing into the crowd. The weight was another bouncer (whose name I have forgotten long since, he had only been with us for a week or so) and the warm feeling was his blood.
Later at the hospital we learned that the bullet (probably from the Police guns) entered his arm and came out his elbow. 2 inches either direction and it would have killed him or me.
I was cold for hours and didn't have my breakdown until about 4am in the hospital parking lot.
I learned two things that night.
1] I don't panic. Good to know that.
2] Guns are a dangerous thing and more often then not fall into the hands of idiots (even those Cops were stupid for firing into a crowd). Gun control laws did not prevent the illegal weapons from getting into Canada, it only prevented them from being sold. Gun control didn't stop the Cops from shooting the guy right beside me.
I won't claim what the answer is. I won't suggest that I even have a clue. But until you have been in a gun fight or the middle of one, until you have shot a man in self defense because if you didn't he would kill you, until basically you have done something with a gun other than shoot and animal or put it on a wall... well I don't know what... All I know is that you (no one person in particular, just people with their wealth of opinions... you know the old adage about opinions and assholes) really get up my nose.
On a side note the bouncer (man I really wish I could remember his name, he was an east Indian guy) recovered alright. Well expect for the fact that he had to learn to write with his other hand since he could barely grip a cup of coffee with his right one.
Wow, I think Baltimore alone had almost 300 murders last year and. . .Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
[B]The movie makes a case study of the Colombine massacre and Moore tries to fnd some answers why things like that happen.
. . .
He shows that, e.g. Canada has no less weapons than the US, but have only around 300 deaths a year - compared to the 12000 of the US.
. . .
Charleton Heston had no answer why he had a loaded weapon under his pillow, . . .
Heston had no answer as well why he held a NRA speech the day after the Colombine and after the Flynt massacre as well.
considering what I've heard, I bet Charleton Heston is lucky to remember what he had for breakfast this morning.
There is a large misconception amongst many that Canada is some kind of paradise of safety and tranquility.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
We have plenty of crime, just not so much violent crime as your average American city.
Just recently the Canadian gov released its findings that violent crime is down but drug offenses are up.
As for people not locking their doors at night, pure poppycock. One night I was working at the bar and my roommate fell asleep with the door to our apartment unlocked.
Well when I got home my TV was gone, my VCR, his Camera Equipment and all his Star Wars CCG cards (he was a tournament player).
This had nothing to do with guns and everything to do with heroin addicts needing money to get a fix.
There are also many, many more of us, and for some reason we like to cluster into huge urban cesspools rather than give each other breathing room. At least, that seems to be why the murder rate is so much greater in the cities.Quote:
He shows that, e.g. Canada has no less weapons than the US, but have only around 300 deaths a year - compared to the 12000 of the US.
And yet Baltimore is really strict on the whole Gun Control thing.Quote:
Wow, I think Baltimore alone had almost 300 murders last year and. . .
It's only in its earliest stages, despite what that jerk George Clooney may be saying. He's still functional enough to blast Clooney back.Quote:
considering what I've heard, I bet Charleton Heston is lucky to remember what he had for breakfast this morning.
Remember when it was look upon as insensitive and boorish to make fun of someones illness?Quote:
Originally posted by ComaBoy
considering what I've heard, I bet Charleton Heston is lucky to remember what he had for breakfast this morning.
Point to you Kaiddin.Quote:
Originally posted by Kaiddin
Remember when it was look upon as insensitive and boorish to make fun of someones illness?
My return question is, what sort of statement does it make to have a person with that illness in charge of an organization which promotes the ownership of weapons?
(And I applaud the NRA in its efforts to train gun owners).
If I am not mistaken, Heston only has the first stages of Alzheimer's. That tends to have as symptoms of short-term memory loss, something that many people experience without Alzheimer's.
It would seem reasonable to me for him to remain a president for as long as he is able, should both the NRA and he wish it.
As far as his continuing to own guns, at this stage judgement should not be affected.
As far as giving a talk the day after Columbine. Part of me views it as being in poor taste, part of me has no problem with it.
The Constitution gives citizens a right to bear arms. If as a result of school shootings this right needs to be reconsidered, there is a mechanism for ammending the Constitution, I would think this would be the best route for banning firearms.
Yes but banning is not the solution how Moore clearly shows, or he shows that not banning them is not the reason for the violence. And he does not say that Canada is paradise - in fact he says that there is enough crime there as well, but its only 80 gun-murders. Lets say they have less people in their country, around a tenth of the US. That would make 800 murders with a comparable population. Lets double it because of the higher density - that would be 1600 dead. But in the US its 12000!!
There has to be something wrong.
Is this going the devolve into a The US is the GREAT SATAN thread?
I thought it was dealing with a minor movie industry person who makes minor movies that only a certain section of society wastes their time on.
If this idiot were to die tomorrow, would he be remembered on Monday let alone in 20 years? Well only if Charlton Heston shot him!
Are you ok, Kaiddin? Have you had a bad day or something?
Nowhere was mentioned that the US is connected to Satan and there is no need for calling up for violence.
We are just talking about a movie and the ideas in it - no more, no less and certainly no Satan.
No just getting tired of the same old garbage. :(Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Are you ok, Kaiddin? Have you had a bad day or something?
You see, Evan, I got the point a long time ago that you have a very low opinion of the United States. You don't like the administration, its foreign policy, its domestic policy, the cut of Bush's hair, the shape of Rumsfeld's nose, the sound Chenney makes when he stands up, the fact that they are Republicans and they don't have the same opinion as you do on Iraq.Quote:
Nowhere was mentioned that the US is connected to Satan and there is no need for calling up for violence.
We are just talking about a movie and the ideas in it - no more, no less and certainly no Satan.
So what are you saying here? Americans are barbarians? No must be that damned administration again.Quote:
Lets double it because of the higher density - that would be 1600 dead. But in the US its 12000!!
There has to be something wrong.
Basically I'm just sick and tired of reading the same crap. Believe it or not I would be just as sick and tired if someone came on everyday and said that Chretien was evil, or Canada. Or even that Chretien was a god or Canada is a paradise.
When you have made your position obvious, why belabour the point? Why not try to go a day without trying to point out the errors of the American way. Tell us about Germany. But remember even chocolate gets sickening if that is all you get to eat!
A friend of mine told be a German term for someone who isn't happy unless they are pointing out someone else's problems. I wish I could remember what it was.
This is not intended as a personal attack. You asked what my problem was and I have tried to explain it. When I came back I deleted all of the people that I had killfiled, I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. The heat of the moment might have led to a hasty decision on my part. But I may have to start with the killfiling again. Not because I disagree with someone's opinions but because I question someones motives. And before I get slammed for picking on Evan, he is not the only one that may find a position in my killfile, should I decide to use it, and he has an opinion opposite to Evan's.
Well as one of the certain section of society that wastes my time with Michael Moore (and his movies, and books and TV shows) I think he would be remembered if he were to die.Quote:
Originally posted by Kaiddin
. . . dealing with a minor movie industry person who makes minor movies that only a certain section of society wastes their time on.
If this idiot were to die tomorrow, would he be remembered on Monday let alone in 20 years? Well only if Charlton Heston shot him!
While you might not like what he does or his dog and pony show, it is only used to expose the dog and pony show of those he is targeting.
I will not fault him for making errors as he is only human. Certainly I will not use his errors as a grounds to throw out all of his arguments.
This is something both the right and left tend to do. "Ah ha! I have found one leak in your argument or one mistake and will focus on it to bring down your credibility." Etc. . .
Now I am not saying that Kaidin is doing this, I think you all know me well enough to know that I have no problems being blunt with people.
Oh and evan as someone who has watched you and others bash each other back and forth, give it a rest for a couple of days. I say this with as much love and concern as I can muster.
Your message is being lost in the never ending fight that turns many of us off. Left or right.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kaiddin
No just getting tired of the same old garbage. :(
You see, Evan, I got the point a long time ago that you have a very low opinion of the United States. You don't like the administration, its foreign policy, its domestic policy, the cut of Bush's hair, the shape of Rumsfeld's nose, the sound Chenney makes when he stands up, the fact that they are Republicans and they don't have the same opinion as you do on Iraq.
So what are you saying here? Americans are barbarians? No must be that damned administration again.
Well where to begin?
You are right, I have a low opinion of the US policy, maybe because it was far better in the past - before I got disillusioned. But what you defnitely got wrong is that I have something against the US - it is a nice country with good people in it. And its not the Us politicians I do not trust, but it is politicians in general. If you read my posts more thoroughly, I often point out German politicians who also comitted wrongdoings, e.g. Mr. Koch, Mr. Scharping, Mr. Rau our own President who essentially stole 100000 DEM, etc.
And you are right I repeat it over and over again - like many I know over and over again ignore facts and are simply not critical of their governments, ours included.
Additionally if you read my earlier posts in this thread you will see that I explicitely wrote that the government is not to be blamed for the gun-kills in the US. Because it was shown that neither gun-laws nor other prejudices about crime seem to fit the situation and therefore I said - there has to be something wrong. Not morally speaking not valuing at all, just stating there is a problem. Alright?
I did not mean to attack any US citizen personally nor Bush or any other of your politicians.
If you like make up a new thread where you can throw all the mud you want at me or at the German government- I mean that seriously - if it helps you feel better afterwards.
Quote:
Oh and evan as someone who has watched you and others bash each other back and forth, give it a rest for a couple of days. I say this with as much love and concern as I can muster.
Your message is being lost in the never ending fight that turns many of us off. Left or right.
Yes. :)Quote:
Basically I'm just sick and tired of reading the same crap.
When you have made your position obvious, why belabour the point?
This was not said.Quote:
If you like make up a new thread where you can throw all the mud you want at me or at the German government- I mean that seriously
Do I no understand????Quote:
This is not intended as a personal attack.