Hopefully this question won't go to far off the intention of this new forum.
Who had the 3 Elven rings? One was on the Lady of the Woods, on with Elrond? and one ....
Ack -
Just found it Cirdan...then Gandalf. I'm so ashamed....:mad:
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Hopefully this question won't go to far off the intention of this new forum.
Who had the 3 Elven rings? One was on the Lady of the Woods, on with Elrond? and one ....
Ack -
Just found it Cirdan...then Gandalf. I'm so ashamed....:mad:
LOL!
You are correct sir :)
Gandalf had the third.
Are you sure? Where in the book does it say that? Page number reference if possible? I always thought that one belonged to Celeborn.Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Smith
Gandalf had the third.
It is specifically discussed in the afterwords on Return of the King - and for that matter in the last chapter Gandalf is wearing it when he takes the ship over the sea.
It isn't clear in the body of the books that he had it prior to becoming "white" but in the appendix it says he had it his whole time in middle earth.
Sort of begs some questions about why he didn't recognize Bilbo's ring for what it was IMHO, but there is quite a bit of disconnect between the Hobbit and LOTR.
Galadriel had Nenya, ring of Adamant (Fellowshp, Book I, Chap7), Gandalf had Narya (Ring of Fire) (Return of the King, Book 6, last chap), given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright when Gandalf first came to M-E (circa 1000 Third Age), Elrond had Vilya (Ring of Water) (RotK, Bk6,last chap).
Gandalf knew Bilbo found a 'Ring of Power', but beleived it to be one of the 'lesser rings'. Saruman convinced the White Council in 2851 (90 years b4 The Hobbit) that the One had most probably washed into the sea from the Anduin and was lost forever. (Of course, he then began searching the Gladden Fields himself, looking for the One.).
http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherin...s/034narya.jpg
:D Does that help? :)
Also, in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" chapter in the Silmarillion, the last few pages say that Cirdan surrendered his ring when Gandalf arrived at the Grey Havens. It says that Cirdan knew where Gandalf had come from and whence he would return...(Valinor).
Also, one of my favorite lines is when Gandalf says to Denethor..."I am also a steward; did you not know?"
I always interpret that as Gandalf hinting to Denethor about the power he possesed through the Elven ring. Even though I doubt he knew what Gandalf was talking about directly, Denethor was one of the few people not accounted among the Wise who would understand the significance of such a thing. It's a nice "touche" between the two rivals.:)
Actually I believe Gandalf speaks of Middle-Earth when referring tom himself as steward. He is steward for middle-earth which he is to protect and mobilize against Sauron's threat, as ordered by the Valinor.
Middle-Earth was entrusted to him, after it became clear that Saruman had fallen and became a threat himself.
I doubt that is what he means; it just doesn't seem to fit correctly to me.
OT: Who exactly was counted among the Wise? Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Celeborn....that's all I know (or think I know). Anyone who can finish the list?
Saruman as well, he was the head of the council. The other Istari ( Tolkien mentioned two others, although never explicitely said it were only five ), Radagst, Pallando, Allatar as well, although rarely actually met with the Council.
OH, you yourself as well ;), Glorfindel
Och, how could I have forgotten the other Istari? *smacks head* (Wasn't it spelled Alatar, not Allatar, or am I wrong?)
Me? :D Shows how smart they are!
Any other members?
It's "Alatar" in Unfinished Tales ('The Istari', pages 388-402). :)Quote:
Originally posted by Glorfindel
Och, how could I have forgotten the other Istari? *smacks head* (Wasn't it spelled Alatar, not Allatar, or am I wrong?)
How about the elf Cirdan? He's a Ring-bearer, or was, until he gave his Ring to Gandalf.
Yeah, I'm sure he'd be one.
So far, we have:
Elrond
Galadriel
Celeborn
Gandalf
Radagast
Saruman
Alatar
Pallando
Cirdan
Glorfindel :D
Any others?
Maybe Thranduil and Tom Bombadil?
TB's awesome, but I don't think he'd be one of the Wise; he never left his land, right? And he just doesn't seem to me to be the sort for councils, meetings, and fighting the Shadow.
OK, accoridng to my 'handbook of the wise of middle-earth', the members of the council ( taken from LORD and The Hobbit ) were The Istari, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Elrond and 'other wise and noble' of the Elves. However all were High Elves and no Wood Elves were included, which Thranduil was very angry about ( because he had no seat either ).
Yes, somehow I couldn't see the old party-hard as a member of the Wise either... :p
I think that is pretty close to what he means. I don't know that becoming "White" was that big of chance in mission profile though. I suspect that he and the other wizards were "stewards" all along - Gandalf just stayed on task a bit better than the others.Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Actually I believe Gandalf speaks of Middle-Earth when referring tom himself as steward. He is steward for middle-earth which he is to protect and mobilize against Sauron's threat, as ordered by the Valinor.
Middle-Earth was entrusted to him, after it became clear that Saruman had fallen and became a threat himself.
It is interesting that I've always figured that he was the most powerful - at least by the end. However, we really don't know about the other 3....
Yes. I assume he only is a stewad, because the Valar are the real Lords of Middle-Earth, but sent him to get things in order, much like Denethor was to administrate Gondor until the King returns.
I'd guess that Radagast, either from his own limitations or focus, is viewed as the weaker of the three we know about - Saruman's contempt and disdain for Radagast's abilities are evident in the text.Quote:
Originally posted by toadkiller
I think that is pretty close to what he means. I don't know that becoming "White" was that big of chance in mission profile though. I suspect that he and the other wizards were "stewards" all along - Gandalf just stayed on task a bit better than the others.
It is interesting that I've always figured that he was the most powerful - at least by the end. However, we really don't know about the other 3....
Furthermore, as Tolkien stated in his other writings that the other two most likely fell from their path when they went East, I'd put them below Gandalf and Saruman in power and strength of purpose.
Actually, the Valar are more like the stewards or governors, whereas Eru is the read Lord of Middle-earth.Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Yes. I assume he only is a stewad, because the Valar are the real Lords of Middle-Earth, but sent him to get things in order, much like Denethor was to administrate Gondor until the King returns.
Tolkien originally suspected that the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards fell under the sway of Sauron, and founded magic-using cults that lasted long into the Fourth Age. However, I believe that his last thoughts on the matter were that they remained true to the mission, and worked among the Easterlings, aiding those who revolt against the yoke of Sauron.
Really? If you find the letter or other reference for that, I'd love to read it. The last I heard of the Blue Wizards was in Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien notes that he feared the two went east and were corrupted and fell to darkness. I don't have the book with me, so I can't give you an exact quote right now.Quote:
Originally posted by Glorfindel
Tolkien originally suspected that the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards fell under the sway of Sauron, and founded magic-using cults that lasted long into the Fourth Age. However, I believe that his last thoughts on the matter were that they remained true to the mission, and worked among the Easterlings, aiding those who revolt against the yoke of Sauron.
Quote:
Originally posted by Glorfindel
Actually, the Valar are more like the stewards or governors, whereas Eru is the read Lord of Middle-earth.
Tolkien originally suspected that the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards fell under the sway of Sauron, and founded magic-using cults that lasted long into the Fourth Age. However, I believe that his last thoughts on the matter were that they remained true to the mission, and worked among the Easterlings, aiding those who revolt against the yoke of Sauron.
Not quite right. Eru gave the Valar Middle-Earth to see what their music did. They are the most powerful beings on Ea - Eru is only a not involving watcher. As the Istari were sent by different Valar, I assume they are their stewards.
BTW thos two other Istari getting evil is the main topic of my upcoming 4rth Age campaign. I really look forward to it.
You too, huh? Bugger all. Time for me to find something else to do...every Narrator I've talked to running a Fourth Age game is using one or both of them. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
BTW thos two other Istari getting evil is the main topic of my upcoming 4rth Age campaign. I really look forward to it.
I don't remember where it was, but I'll ask about it on my Tolkien board and get back to you. :)
For what it's worth, the footnote in Unfinished Tales regarding the fates of Alatar and Pallando reads as follows (page 401):
'In a letter written in 1958 my (Christopher Tolkien) father said that he knew nothing clearly about 'the other two', since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth. 'I think,' he wrote, 'they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.'
If there's a later source that alters this, I'd love to read it! :D
Quoted from Entmoot:
Quote:
JRRT's later writing on the Ithryn Luin is discussed at page 384-385, vol XII of HoME. There name, (Epithets), in ME were; Morinehtar = Darkness Slayer; and Rostestamo = East Helper. Their missions were to help eastern ME tribes which rebeled against Sauron and Morgoth worship, and to weaken by dissention and rebellion the tribes loyal to Sauron. The note is nore optimistic appraising their accomplishment that the earlier one about the selection of the Istari in Valinor. It concludes that they were instrumental in prevent overwhelmiing forces from the East from overrunning the west, but it says nothing of their fate.
Now that is seriously cool, Glorfindel. Thanks for posting it! I just have the first two volumes of HoME.
Looks like I'll be going to Borders tomorrow to pick up Volume XII. :)
Again, thanks. The plot wheels are turning now....
Not that I'm going to get to run a ME game - but....
If I did get to use these two (either or both) I'd start with the general idea/belief being that they had fallen into darkness and were the head of the game-bad-guys (tm).
However, in true Gandalf fashion all would not be as it seemed and either one would end up being on the side of the PC's against the other - or both would be against some other evil that simply was discrediting them via slander. Something Sauron would have been very happy to do to Gandalf and may have given his reception in Gondor for instance.
The wise old wizard who props the party up right up until you REALLY need him - then he's off somewhere is, to my mind, a needed LOTR's device.
I just had the germ of an idea while reading above of a dramatic scene when they finally corner one of the wizards - who they think is against them - sort of like the meeting with Strider -
"If I wanted to _____ then I would have done it" draws himself up suddenly seeming a giant amonst them, "But....happily the stories of my fall are just that, stories, so far I have passed my tests. Now, let us get to business my furry footed friends time is short and we've wasted to much already you and I".
Also takes care of the little problem that IMHO the typical ME party simply isn't going to really be able to take on one of these guys.....:eek:
Methinks we might need to get some First Age Noldorin princes for that. :eek:
Anyway, that's a really good idea! Would you mind if I used something similar in a campaign? :D
Go for it.