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Okay now I am talking the far east here.
ICE/MERP didn't do anything on them, but I am to assume they are like the more Asiatic people of our own world.
So what would they be like? One major Japanese or Chinese like culture? Or a few that embody aspects of China and the remainder of South East Asia?
Ideas? Thoughts?
Going by what I can remember from the books, and using what I saw in TTT I would venture that they would be more along the Mongols, or some other type of steppe nomads, Scythians perhaps.
Chello!
Well, Aslan, there are lots of Easterlings. Anything East of Mordor in fact.
"...the 'Easterlings' were mostly Men of cruel and evil kind, descendents of those who had served and worshipped Sauron before his overthrow at the end of the Second Age."
The History of Middle Earth Vol. 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth, Christopher Tolkien (ed.).
I remember that in our old MERP/RM games, we had areas that were Middle Eastern, Tibetan, and SE Asian in charcter. none that were Japanses or Chinese really though. although one PC was Ben-ji the Monk. ;)
Tony
I would join the Mongol side. It seems at least that they are war-like and at least at the beginning joined Sauron voluntarily. Yet they are good horse man, like the Mongols were.
BTW where have we seen them in TTT?
I think Lord Kjeran has it right, there are lots of Easterlings.
I think there are Monguls/Amerinds just past Mordor, on the far side of Rhun.
Beyond that you get out of the steppes and into mountains, forests, etc...
So perhaps there is room for different types as well, and considering that the good Prof used our earth as the guideline there would be room for a sort of Chinese/Japanese society.
Also possibly an East Indian style society just to the south and east of Mordor.
Much like the Western races and societies though I don't see them as direct copies but subtle amalgamations.
As for where we saw Easterlings in TTT. When Sam and Frodo are right at the Gates of Mordor, we see an army march up. They hide under the Elven cloaks as two break off to investigate, these are Easterlings. Looking at their eyes the looked sort of Asiatic and maybe even a bit east Indian.
To be honest I am sure one of them was a woman. Probably used so they could get the exotic look to the eyes.
About the TTT and the army at the gates of Mordor, I'd swear they were southerons ... southerners ... southsomethingwhateverTolkiencalledhtem. After all, it seems to me they were of the same type as those who had a Mumakil/Oliphant with them, and those were definitely from the south.
As to there being a Japanese/Chinese-like culture on Middle-Earth, wasn't there something like that on ICE's map of Middle-Earth? Some place called Cathay or somesuch? It may not be canon, but it'd be close enough, wouldn't it?
That were no Easterlings ( hey the came from Southwest ) but it were Haradrim, or Southrons ( which is the Westron translation ) according to the books - and I assume it was held that way in script as well. I actually think I can remember an interview with jackson where he referred to them has Southern people.
It has to be Southrons, because Easterlings would have come from the other direction.
Not to add to the debate, but I think the armies approaching the Black Gate in TTT (the movie) are Easterlings. I offer this as possible proof.
The army that Faramir's rangers ambushed, the ones with the Mumakil, those were Southrons, aka Haradrim.
IMO and IMC, of course. :)
Hmmm ... they still looked more like North-africans to me than Asians ... but ICBW ... anyone knows Peter Jackson here? Maybe he could give him a call and ask him? ;)
And when is the DVD coming out so that we can check!
Last rumor I heard had the theatrical edition coming out in Julyish.Quote:
Originally posted by Calcoran
And when is the DVD coming out so that we can check!
Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
Okay now I am talking the far east here.
ICE/MERP didn't do anything on them, but I am to assume they are like the more Asiatic people of our own world.
So what would they be like? One major Japanese or Chinese like culture? Or a few that embody aspects of China and the remainder of South East Asia?
Ideas? Thoughts?
Why didn't you ask this last week when I was reading articles on line analyzing the Tolkien races. Then I could have given you sites to look at. :(
From what I remember, the last book of theHistory of Middle-Earth dealt with this suggesting Tolkien didn't have any nations representing China, India or Japan. It wasn't necessary for his internal history or mythology.
That in mind, it is going to be your story. Use it if you want. I'm working on a way of bringing the Rûmhoth, of the city Rûm to the south, into my back history. It was mentioned in one of the History of Middle-Earth books and why not use it. :D
Maybe the movie shows Easterlings. In the books its definitely Haradrim. Even in the movie they come from South - why should the Easterlings wander all around Mordor?
But maybe NLC decided differently, yet their appearance looks stille like depicted in the book.
Sorry Evan but the Southrons were shown later in the film with the Oliphant and they looked remarkably different than what were identified as the easterlings.
Also they marched around perhaps to show respect and enter Mordor through the black gate instead of just walking in the back door.
Would you want to risk pissing off Sauron?
Be careful about assigning specific ethnic identities to the various races in Middle Earth. You might stir up the old "Tolkien was a Racist" argument again, and we don't want that. Even assigning a correlation between Rohirrim and Anglo-Saxons (which I myself am guilty of) can be dangerous, for while Tolkien used Old English to represent their language, the Rohirrim share many characteristics with Norse and Germanic cultures of the Dark Ages. What you should be looking at is "how did other cultures develop in similar circumstances." You can then borrow some elements from those cultures but be sure to alter them, because the Easterlings aren't Asiatic peoples. They're Easterlings.:D
What do we know of the various Easterlings? First of all that there were a number of different groups/tribes/nations with different cultures. The first invasions (c. 490-541 of the Third Age) we know little about, other than the effects of their invasion.
We know that later (in 1248 TA) Minalcar (later Romendacil II) took a great force into the lands of Rhovanion and destroyed all the camps and settlements of the Easterlings which lay on the near side of the inland sea of Rhûn. This implies that they were a semi-nomadic people, which may have held some resemblance to some of the peoples which invaded Europe from the East, like the Mongols or the Huns (my personal preference). Still, the destruction which Romendacil II wrought most likely broke this first group of Easterlings as a major power.
The next invasion we have from the east is the Wainriders, which were "a people, or confederacy of many peoples," and sapped Gondor's strength in was which lasted a century (beginningin 1851). They traveled in great wagons, their chieftans fought from chariots, and they were much stronger and better armed than the previous wave of Easterlings. They thus seem to be of a different culture than the previous group, but I can't think of any historical group to equate them with other than Vikings (substituting huge wagons for longboats).
The next invasion of Easterlings we have are the Balchoth (in 2510), who moved into the area east of Mirkwood and south of the River Running (and were doubtless plenty of trouble for the people of Dale). We know of them (mostly from stuff in the Unfinished Tales) that they were somehow akin to the Wainriders in culture at least. They had few horses and used them mostly for draught, and traveled in wagons. However, we know also that they were poorly equipped, and their main advantage over Gondor this time was in numbers. They were defeated by the timely arrival of Eorl the Young.
Of course, there were Easterlings present durring the War of the Ring. One group attacked Dale and Erebor. Another group, different from previously encountered Easterlings in that they were bearded and wielded axes, took Cairn Andos and also make an appearance at the Siege of Minas Tirith (there is a mention of "Easterlings with axes"). There were tons of unspecified Easterlings in the battle before the Morannon, and they doubtless represented all of Sauron's followers from east of Mordor.
What we are left with is a general impression of "hordes of unwashed barbarians" friom the north-east of Middle Earth, all of which hate the West, under the sway of Sauron, who repeatedly invade. So the key elements of their culture would be a veneration of Sauron and the Dark Powers, warlike nature, and a lack of the superior culture and craft of the West. So I'd look to such raiding and invading cultures as Vikings, Huns, and Mongols (without the cavalry culture, of course) for inspiration. Can anyone come up with other sources of inspiration?
-Chris Landmark
You know Chris between you and Tony we are gonna have an encyclopedia on line here ;)
That doesn't help us much but gets the ball rolling eh?Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark What do we know of the various Easterlings? First of all that there were a number of different groups/tribes/nations with different cultures. The first invasions (c. 490-541 of the Third Age) we know little about, other than the effects of their invasion.
I think they would work as a mix of the two. Mongols & Huns. If the Rohirrim can be seen as Saxon/Germanic/Norse, certainly we can see the nomadic easterlings being like that as well. Have to do some research on both those cultures more.Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark We know that later (in 1248 TA) Minalcar (later Romendacil II) took a great force into the lands of Rhovanion and destroyed all the camps and settlements of the Easterlings which lay on the near side of the inland sea of Rhûn. This implies that they were a semi-nomadic people, which may have held some resemblance to some of the peoples which invaded Europe from the East, like the Mongols or the Huns (my personal preference). Still, the destruction which Romendacil II wrought most likely broke this first group of Easterlings as a major power.
You know what is weird, I saw an East Indian mythic adventure film (yes there was singing) but the armies in the movie sound just like the ones you are describing here, except for the wagons. But that is forgivable to be sure.Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark The next invasion we have from the east is the Wainriders, which were "a people, or confederacy of many peoples," and sapped Gondor's strength in was which lasted a century (beginningin 1851). They traveled in great wagons, their chieftans fought from chariots, and they were much stronger and better armed than the previous wave of Easterlings. They thus seem to be of a different culture than the previous group, but I can't think of any historical group to equate them with other than Vikings (substituting huge wagons for longboats).
Hmmmmm... I am lost for a real world comparison. Anyone got any ideas for this?Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark The next invasion of Easterlings we have are the Balchoth (in 2510), who moved into the area east of Mirkwood and south of the River Running (and were doubtless plenty of trouble for the people of Dale). We know of them (mostly from stuff in the Unfinished Tales) that they were somehow akin to the Wainriders in culture at least. They had few horses and used them mostly for draught, and traveled in wagons. However, we know also that they were poorly equipped, and their main advantage over Gondor this time was in numbers. They were defeated by the timely arrival of Eorl the Young.
Easterlings with Axes eh? Could be those Hun/Mongols again. Especially with those beards, kind of like Russian Steppes folk. Kurgen ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark Of course, there were Easterlings present durring the War of the Ring. One group attacked Dale and Erebor. Another group, different from previously encountered Easterlings in that they were bearded and wielded axes, took Cairn Andos and also make an appearance at the Siege of Minas Tirith (there is a mention of "Easterlings with axes"). There were tons of unspecified Easterlings in the battle before the Morannon, and they doubtless represented all of Sauron's followers from east of Mordor.
Right and if we keep going west we eventually get to the far eastern coast where I see the more civilized Cathay type of place (as someone mentioned).Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark What we are left with is a general impression of "hordes of unwashed barbarians" friom the north-east of Middle Earth, all of which hate the West, under the sway of Sauron, who repeatedly invade. So the key elements of their culture would be a veneration of Sauron and the Dark Powers, warlike nature, and a lack of the superior culture and craft of the West. So I'd look to such raiding and invading cultures as Vikings, Huns, and Mongols (without the cavalry culture, of course) for inspiration. Can anyone come up with other sources of inspiration?
Thanks guys. this has all been a big help thus far.
I have really figured some stuff out and more confused other parts ;) In the end though it should all work out :)
There are two large people in Harad, Far Harad and Harad - and there are many smaller tribes in the region which all answer to Sauron. But what I actually spoke of was just the depiction of the book, which the first army fits quite well.Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
Sorry Evan but the Southrons were shown later in the film with the Oliphant and they looked remarkably different than what were identified as the easterlings.
Also they marched around perhaps to show respect and enter Mordor through the black gate instead of just walking in the back door.
Would you want to risk pissing off Sauron?
And I did not mean that they entered the back door, but come from the East. The Black Gate faces North West so the Easterlings would approach it from right ( if looking on a map ) not from below.
Oh, maybe another point which is important. In the first Age of middle Earth three tribes of Men eventually came to Beleriand. Their later descendants are the Dunedain and Northman, including the Rohirrim.
The Dunedain are High Men ( Including Corsairs, Black Numenoreans...), Rohirrim and the rest of this three tribes are 'only' middle men, because they have no connected lineage to Elves. Yet there were some Men who were afraid of the Elves and went not to Beleriand - yet later supported Melkor. Those are the Dark Men. Not neccessarily speaking of their morality but of the fact that they remained in the dark parts of Middle-Earth. And those dark men are the Easterlings - whoch still dwell in the areas where Men awoke in the First Age. But as they never had such connections with the Valar and Elves, they have not developed such a high culture as others.
Sorry to highjack your thread for a while Aslan, but in the end maybe it can be of some help too.
Now there is a thing that has always puzzled me. When the first Elves awoke in the darkness under the stars, they awoke somewhere inland, and then travelled west, to the sea, and then some of them over the sea. Similarly, when the first Men awoke, they awoke inland, and travelled west, to the sea. Some of the Elves elected not to travel west, and became the Avari. Some of them you will probably use as the main enemy Aslan. Some of the Men elected to stay were they awoke, and still dwell there: the Easterlings. They fell under Morgoth's shadow, and later Sauron's, for they were more easily influenced than Elves.
So, in the end, everybody went west. Or stood there. What the hell is there to the east, then? If over the sea, to the west, gets you to Valinor, why not go east too? Or is there no sea to the east? Just like light came from Valinor to the west, does darkness come from the east? Is middle earth even round then? But if it isn't, why the name?
I know there must be some answers in "The Silmarillon" but my last read of it was quite a few years ago and I don't quite recall what Tolkien said about it. It just puzzled me that east was so seldom mentioned in Tolkien's books. Maybe there is something more to get from there?
At the beginning Middle-Earth was actually not round. Only as Tar-Pharazon from Numenor tried to invade Aman. After that occurance, the Valar took Valinor out of the direct way actually lifting it up and making all except the Elves come out at the other end of Middle-Earth ( actually its called Ea, Middle Earth is just one continent ). There is also a thrid continent somewhere South East of Middle Earth.
Errr ... the second being Valinor, right?
Where is this 3rd continent mentioned, Evan?
Been thinking a bit, and what Evan said seems to fit with what the hypopotamus of recollection kept in store in the muddy waters of my memory (hey, great butchering of TP's quote :D).
So, earth was flat.The Void then Sea to the west, with Valinor somewhere in it, Middle Earth in the middle, then the Void again to the east. No wonder nothing worth noting ever happened there :) .
Then indeed at the end of the second age, the earth is reshapen and made round. The interesting thing is that the Easterling, folks who had never seen the Sea, suddenly found themselves facing a great big bucket of salty water in front of them, where there was nothing before. Admittedly, there must have been a bit of an Armageddon when it happened, so there were probably only few survivors to notice, but still. What have they done with it, one might wonder. I mean, the Japanese (and a bit less the Chinese) civilization was greatly influenced by the sea (being an island might have helped there). Would such civilizations have had time enough to form between the beginning of the third age and the timeset of your campaign, Aslan? Or something radically different?
I actually do not know. I think its somewhere in 'History of Middle-Earth' or the 'Atlas of Middle-Earth'. I do not remember though. Anyone Else?
Sounds like it is from the Atlas of Middle Earth along with the Illustrated Encyclopedia.
OK, quick geography lesson for you. In the beginning, Arda (that's the Earth, by the way) was created flat. It was constantly reshaped by the conflicts between the Valar and Melkor (aka Morgoth). Eventually what they ended up with was this: Valinor in the west (where all the Valar hung out), a mountainous land in the east (which was too rugged to support life), and Middle Earth (aka Endor) in the center (where all the Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits eventually appeared). There were oceans on both sides of Middle Earth, and the Encircling Seas all around the edge of the world (except in the far north were they froze up to become the Grinding Ice, and possibly in the south as well but we know absolutely nothing of this). The sun and moon had to travel through caverns under the earth in order to get in place in time to rise again.
At the end of the First Age, the island of Numenor was raised between Middle Earth and Valinor (within sight of the latter, in fact) and Beleriand (the westernmost part of Middle Earth, where all the big First Age stuff happened; it was everything from the Blue Mountains west) was sunk, leaving just a remnant now known as Lindon and an island or two. The world remained otherwise the same, geographically.
At the end of the Second Age, when Ar-Pharazôn tried to invade Valinor and claim immortality as a spoil of war (a fools errand which Sauron convinced him was possible), the Valar threw up their hands and called on Eru Illuvitar (aka God with a capital "G") to fix his little red wagon. Eru basically took the edges of the flat world and bent them around to form a sphere, but left Valinor in it's "original location" so that the elves could still sail the "straight way" (the normal seas now being bent, since the world is now round) and reach Valinor when they tired of Middle Earth. Numenor got the Atlantis treatment, and apparently new lands emerged elsewhere on the new globe. This is where everything begins to slowly decay from mythic prehistory to a more "scientific" reality.
For someone else's take on the lands of Rhûn and Harad, check out this site. It's yet another speculation on what might be beyond the edges of the maps suppled with the Lord of the Rings. Some of the ideas are relatively good, others are a bit "iffy" (the lost kingdom of Amazôn being one of them).
More on Easterlings: Since someone brought them up, don't equate the "Swarthy Men" Easterlings of the First Age (some of whom secretly went over to Morgoth and betrayed the Edain and the Eldar, some of whom remained loyal and paid the price) with the Easterlings of the Third Age. They're separated by thousands of years and thousands of leagues. The things they do hold in common are that they aren't as "fair" as the Edain and their distant kin (like the Rohirrim) and they came from the East once the Edain were established in the West.
-Chris Landmark
Just a short add. The sun and moon were formed later in the age. First there were the two trees which brought light to Aman and later the large towers holding ( I think it was the Silmaril ), after Melkor had destroyed the trees - btw the very trees the white tree of Numenor is a decendant of. Later when Morgoth also destroyed the towers and took the gems, Sun and Moon were created to keep Morgoth' dark creatures in check.Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark
The sun and moon had to travel through caverns under the earth in order to get in place in time to rise again.
At the end of the First Age, the island of Numenor was raised between Middle Earth and Valinor (within sight of the latter, in fact) and Beleriand (the westernmost part of Middle Earth, where all the big First Age stuff happened; it was everything from the Blue Mountains west) was sunk, leaving just a remnant now known as Lindon and an island or two. The world remained otherwise the same, geographically.
More on Easterlings: Since someone brought them up, don't equate the "Swarthy Men" Easterlings of the First Age (some of whom secretly went over to Morgoth and betrayed the Edain and the Eldar, some of whom remained loyal and paid the price) with the Easterlings of the Third Age. They're separated by thousands of years and thousands of leagues. The things they do hold in common are that they aren't as "fair" as the Edain and their distant kin (like the Rohirrim) and they came from the East once the Edain were established in the West.
There were was even some more change. The Island tol Erressar was used as 'escape pod' for many Elves who wanted to leave Middle Earth. It was placed before Aman's harbour in reach of it. You could see it faintly from Numenor when the weather was good.
As a not on the Easterlings: Of course they are different from those early men but they are of less noble decent then Dunedain and the Northman. Faramir explains it quite well in his talk with Frodo.
Well, it was the towers first in Middle Earth, and when Morgoth toppled the towers, the Valar moved westward (to Valinor) and Yavanna grew the Trees there. Feanor captured the light from the trees in the Silmarils, which is why everyone wanted them.Quote:
Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
[B]Just a short add. The sun and moon were formed later in the age. First there were the two trees which brought light to Aman and later the large towers holding ( I think it was the Silmaril ), after Melkor had destroyed the trees - btw the very trees the white tree of Numenor is a decendant of. Later when Morgoth also destroyed the towers and took the gems, Sun and Moon were created to keep Morgoth' dark creatures in check.
The Sun and Moon were created after the trees were destroyed. They are actually each a fruit from one of the trees.
I read Easterlings as being Mongol/Hun types, I won't go into details, I would just be repeating (very well) researched strings. Some were obviously Viking-type (the bearded axemen from Rhun). Tolkien calls them all 'wild and evil men'.
No great civilizations, sorry.
BTW: the guys marching into the Black Gate in TTT are Southrons (Haradrim), check out their banner (red with gold serpant) and re-read the battle of Pelannor Fields.
The Haradrim were the ones taken out by Faramir and his friends, the ones marching into Mordor, according to info I have seen, are Easterlings.
I believe Rhovanion and the lands east of Rhûn were to near for a true “Asian” population. Tolkien had in mind something like a “proto-Europe” and so it is likely that the Easterlings we heard from were akin to the old sytian peoples. We even have something of a parallel between history and Middle Earth “history on this particular subject:
It exists a certain level of parallelism between the Ostrogothic kingdom in Ukraine and the Kingdom of Vidugavia and his descendents in Rhovanion (and the fact that Tolkien used gothic names to “translate” proto Rohirim names is certainly not a coincidence neither). Considering this, it becomes plausible that the nomads living nearby the Northmen were akin (at least culturally) to the sytian peoples that lived near the Ostrogoths in our world. Further, the few descriptions of the Wainriders remind me much of the Cimmerians too, adding to the idea that they were similar to the Iranian nomads of our world.
There is a line where they say "Southrons and Easterlings are passing though the Black Gate everyday." (paraphrased).
In the movie at least, the ones who are fooled by the elven cloaks are Easterlings.
I believe the line is during the scenes with Faramir in Osiligath.
I know very little of the Ostrogoths, but can you tell me a bit more about them?Quote:
Originally posted by Janus
I believe Rhovanion and the lands east of Rhûn were to near for a true “Asian” population. Tolkien had in mind something like a “proto-Europe” and so it is likely that the Easterlings we heard from were akin to the old sytian peoples. We even have something of a parallel between history and Middle Earth “history on this particular subject:
It exists a certain level of parallelism between the Ostrogothic kingdom in Ukraine and the Kingdom of Vidugavia and his descendents in Rhovanion (and the fact that Tolkien used gothic names to “translate” proto Rohirim names is certainly not a coincidence neither). Considering this, it becomes plausible that the nomads living nearby the Northmen were akin (at least culturally) to the sytian peoples that lived near the Ostrogoths in our world.
Iranian nomads? Bedu? Not sure I understand this either.Quote:
Further, the few descriptions of the Wainriders remind me much of the Cimmerians too, adding to the idea that they were similar to the Iranian nomads of our world.
The Greuntungs (Ostrogoths, meaning “Illustrious Goths”) are one of the gothic groups. According to their own legends, the ancestors of the Goths were the Gotar of 'Gutiskandza' (S Sweden). By the 3d cent. A.D., the Goths settled in the region N of the Black Sea. The Sarmatians (belonging to the Iranian group of mounted nomads) dominated the steppes until the Goths entered the territory from the West and established the Ostrogothic Kingdom, which extended from the Dniepre River, north and east to the headwaters of the Volga River. While the Visigoths, (or “Wise Goths”), moved further west of them. By c.375 the Huns conquered the Ostrogothic kingdom ruled by Ermanaric. This event fragmented the Greuntungs; some took refuge with the Visigoths and others remained under the domain of the Huns. After the death of Attila the Ostrogoths fragmented further some of them settled in Pannonia (roughly the west of modern Hungary) as allies of the Byzantine (East Roman) empire.
The Cimerian were supposedly from proto-Iranian origin, speaking a language related to those of the historical tribes of Iran. The known names of their leaders support that theory, apparently. BTW, What is Bedu?
Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
[B]I know very little of the Ostrogoths, but can you tell me a bit more about them?
Iranian nomads? Bedu? Not sure I understand this either.
Ostrogoths
The Ostrogoths ("Eastern Goths", as opposed to "West Goths", Visigoths) were a Germanic tribe that influenced the political events of the late Roman Empire.
I hate to use the Cimmerians as there is a certain barbarian that has influenced what people visualize when this tribe is meantioned. :rolleyes: