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is there any scale whatsoeer to any of the maps within the core book? this information is sorely needed and despoerately lacking. how can i calculate travel distances without it? waht an oversight!
i need to know how far from the river's edge mirkwood is and there is no way of finding this out.
The Maps of Middle-earth has a scale bar at the bottom of every map, FWIW. It's a nice reference.
In the core rulebook, looking at the map on pages 34-35, and using some measurements from the travel matrix on page 253, and using a good old-fashioned ruler, it looks like 1 inch on the map equals about 30 leagues (90 miles).
I based this on the fact that Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are about 1/2 an inch apart on the map, and the travel matrix lists those two cities as being 15 leagues apart.
Minas Tirith and Pelargir are about an inch and a third apart, pretty much equating the correct distance of 43 leagues.
Of course, this is as the crow flies, not necessarily actual ground distances. :)
As for the inside front and back covers, if we use the same idea, the measurement is about 3/4 of an inch = 15 leagues.
May not be 100 percent accurate, but it's close enough for my game. :)
even basic information is missing from the core book. there is no way im wasting money on a set of maps just to get a scale. thats just poor.
bloke/cuspofdreaming/martin, is that you?
I was wondering the same myself...Quote:
Originally posted by Ineti
bloke/cuspofdreaming/martin, is that you?
Kong does post a very valid concern. These books are not free, they put a fairly big dent in the B33R fund. When I buy a book that costs upwards of $40 (USD), I want it to be as close to perfect as possible. One of the biggest gripes that I have is the errata - I know things will change, but at what point is Decipher going to say, "You unforntunately made the mistake of purchasing version 1.x. Here is the updated version 2.x with the errata inserted. BTW, it's free of charge. Thanks for being a valued gamer. 'Game on'!"
Prolly not to likely. What they will prolly say is, "Guess what, thanks for sending us lots of your cash for a book that we have updated again and again and again. Please continue to send us your cash."
I may not agree with Kong's tone, but he makes a very valid point. I have some other things that I should probably put $40 towards than a DnD book - when I do put that $40 toward a DnD book, I want it to be correct. Kinda like buying College Text Books all over again - "Nope, can't use last year's version, please give us another $80. Oh, you're returning your $80 book, here's $5. Thanks, have a nice day."
I can't see Decipher's need and use of errata any worse than Wizard of the Coast's handling of D&D 3rd edition. :) Or Star Wars d20 for that matter.
But I do understand the concerns.
i dont think that you do.Quote:
Originally posted by Ineti
I can't see Decipher's need and use of errata any worse than Wizard of the Coast's handling of D&D 3rd edition. :) Or Star Wars d20 for that matter.
But I do understand the concerns.
the argument that other companies are slap happy in their approach to games is a straw man argument; it doesnt excuse D that other companies have low standards.
i canno understand what value there is or what can be gained from tolerating it either. lotr has enough problems to warrant some real inquiry but this will ever happen so long as people like you give them the green light to continue - and that is exaclty wnat you are doing. there is a point where there are just too many mistakes and where companies shoudlnt be forgiven for making these mistakes. its only because of the fanboy and small industry nature of gaming that this happens - it would never happen in any other field. if you brought a buggy pc game you would immediately take it back - we wouldnt even be having this discussion. there is no difference. D have done us down and its just not good enough. it is perfectly clear to me that they are only cashing in on the movies, everything supports this and nothing counters it. this is sad.
I don't have any authority in this forum whatsoever so this post is not from a moderator. Just a person.
You need to calm down kong. If you don't buy the books thats fine with me. Free country so that doesn't matter but don't accuse Decipher of crimes that are way off base. They are not bringing their own line to a demise on purpose. :rolleyes:
i havent accused anyone of any crimes and i dont see what living in a free country has to do with anything. i also think you are being very naive.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt Cmdr Matt
I don't have any authority in this forum whatsoever so this post is not from a moderator. Just a person.
You need to calm down kong. If you don't buy the books thats fine with me. Free country so that doesn't matter but don't accuse Decipher of crimes that are way off base. They are not bringing their own line to a demise on purpose. :rolleyes:
Now you're just being argumentative. Just as you have the right not to purchase Decipher products, we have the right to purchase them... without having to justify that purchase to you.
I am not giving a "green light" to anybody by doing so... I am providing hours of enjoyment to my gaming group. To me the cost of the books is worth it, even with their flaws. I certainly have the imagination to fill in the gaps, as Matt tried to do for you... and got a smack for his trouble.
There is also something to be said for the fact that a company with as much experience as WotC/ TSR not putting out an "acceptable" product. If someone with that much experience can't get it quite right, one might expect Decipher to have early problems.
As for being naive, I think that you are being naive for believeing that NOT purchasing their product will influence Decipher. If you're not a customer, why should they listen to you? I doubt Mercedes has any interest in my opinion of their product... unless I buy one.
Back under your bridge.
Quote:
Originally posted by kong
i havent accused anyone of any crimes and i dont see what living in a free country has to do with anything. i also think you are being very naive.
Is that you, martin?Quote:
Originally posted by kong
i havent accused anyone of any crimes and i dont see what living in a free country has to do with anything. i also think you are being very naive.
Pretty sure it is. Do a search on his screen name. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Jason Durall
Is that you, martin?
>Now you're just being argumentative. Just as you have the right not to purchase Decipher products, we have the right to purchase them... without having to justify that purchase to you.
i think you are being defensive, not i. oeople who wave around the first amendment and make 'its a free country' their battle cry are just being hysterical. no one is stopping you from doing anything, nor are they trying to. where on aerth do you get this notion that your civil righrs are under attack. this isnt a terrorrist attack. if you want to buy the lotr rpg then do so, just be aware of what you are buying and its consequences. if D can see tht their product is flawed there is more chance of it being put right, but that ownt happen so long as people keep telling them how great it is to the point of ignoring problems.
>I am not giving a "green light" to anybody by doing so...
you miss the point entirely.
> I am providing hours of enjoyment to my gaming group. To me the cost of the books is worth it, even with their flaws. I certainly have the imagination to fill in the gaps, as Matt tried to do for you... and got a smack for his trouble.
noon got a smack, dont overreact.
the point is that you shouldnt have the fill the gaps. if you choose to do so then you are giving D carte blanche to carry on in the way they have. the bottom line is that, while you may be happy with this situation, it will ultinmately backfire because the game line will suffer.
>There is also something to be said for the fact that a company with as much experience as WotC/ TSR not putting out an "acceptable" product. If someone with that much experience can't get it quite right, one might expect Decipher to have early problems.
thats just lazy. there is no reason to assume that D cant and shouldnt do a good job; what other companies do is irrelevant since D are independent. there will always be some amount of errata, however there is a point when some becomes too much and an unacceptable level.
>As for being naive, I think that you are being naive for believeing that NOT purchasing their product will influence Decipher. If you're not a customer, why should they listen to you? I doubt Mercedes has any interest in my opinion of their product... unless I buy one.
are you serious?
if everyone thought that the rpg was a poor product not worth the price tag then D most certainly would take notice.
and i own the book, as do many who think the game has a poor standard. peopel need to vote with their wallets, and i can assure you that with poor sales and a poorreputation D would certainly be foprced to at least buck their ideas up, the same as anybody.
Again - I don't condone his tone, but Kong does put some very good points on the table. If I were to purchase WarCraft III and it crashes on a regular basis, Blizzard will not only get an e-mail, but they and the store that I purchased it from will have a refund with my name on it waiting for me when I step through the door.
Not everyone is aware of official and unofficial web sites with errata posted on them. Nor do people always want to sit there and paper-match. Do other companies do this? Unfortunately, yes. Granted, mistakes happen, rules change, and patches need to be sent out. Unfortunately, we can't download the patches to be seemlessly integrated into the bound book like we can with a Diablo II 1.09 patch or NWN 1.10 to 2.x patch or Windows Update.
Hrm....thought - if we purchase the books, can we register them @ Decipher.com and then receive free updates to a *.PDF version (with bookmarks!!!!)? That way, we have given Decipher our cash, but we can also get updates that can seemlessly fit into an electronic format at least.
If we want to ask Decipher to live-up to a better than average standard, perhaps we need to present them with some viable options that we as paying customers would be happy with.
Careful on those DnD slams Ineti, I think that I have an Epic level mage or 3 waiting to teleport your Ranger to their happy-room ;).
What slam? I simply stated that WotC is handling D&D 3e about as well as Decipher is handling LOTR. There are pages upon pages of errata for almost every book WotC has released on their websites. I'm not saying if it's good or bad that the industry is like this, it simply is.Quote:
Originally posted by Grutos
Careful on those DnD slams Ineti, I think that I have an Epic level mage or 3 waiting to teleport your Ranger to their happy-room ;).
And we gamers accept it and support it by buying the products, flaws and all.
I'm not sure Ineti was actually slamming D&D, but the fact is that they have a considerable amount more in their errata for their core books than the LotR book does.
I would daresay that this is representative of what the market is apparently willing to accept.
It's not cool, and it is annoying, and companies should do everything they can to make their games as complete and playable as possible.
However, like LotR RPG, the majority of the people who play D&D have no idea that errata is out there, and have made it fine playing without any outside support, warts and all.
We wrote those replies at almost the same time... eerie coincidence.
Wacky. :)
I wonder what the percentage is of gamers who play these games and either don't go online or simply don't know about the errata.
There could be some GM out in Nowhere, Kansas running a killer D&D or LOTR game with the rulebook as is, with no idea that errata even exists. :)
Since I knew a guy that played D&D with only the old Green Basic set and Blue Expert sets until 3E came out. I think your statement could be dead on. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Ineti
There could be some GM out in Nowhere, Kansas running a killer D&D or LOTR game with the rulebook as is, with no idea that errata even exists. :)
I'm not going to close this thread (yet), but if personal attacks and argumentative replies (this means you, kong) become the order of the day you can bet I will. Warnings all around.
please dont accuse me of behaviour i havent portrayed, its really out of order.Quote:
Originally posted by Don Mappin
I'm not going to close this thread (yet), but if personal attacks and argumentative replies (this means you, kong) become the order of the day you can bet I will. Warnings all around.
[edit] [/edit]
RPGs are about imagination, without imagination they can't be successful. Not every book will have a rule for everything, it is the Narrator's job to improvise. I am not personally attacking you kong but this is just a general FYI.
If you buy an RPG book and it doesn't have a scale for example, improvise and make something up as Ineti did. Be creative. Your players will not care if distances are slightly off as long as you have an epic story in the game. :)
>RPGs are about imagination, without imagination they can't be successful.
of course. but thats not the issue.
>Not every book will have a rule for everything, it is the Narrator's job to improvise. I am not personally attacking you kong but this is just a general FYI.
im not saying you are attacking me, but you are being somewhat naive. no one expects a system to have a rule for everything. the issue isnt the simplicity of the rules, but the condition of the game. this however does include some iffy rules complx or otherwise.
>If you buy an RPG book and it doesn't have a scale for example, improvise and make something up as Ineti did.
there are certain standards i believe which must be met; you cannot seriously expect a customer to do the work when they shoudl have to, that defeats the object of buying the rules. when you reach that point, there is no point in selling the game to begin with.
>Be creative. Your players will not care if distances are slightly off as long as you have an epic story in the game. :)
again this is not the issue. the presence of rules doesnt diminish creativity, in fact they are there so that the narrator doesnt have to compromise his creativity by having to spend time doing work the work of the producer. ymmv of courfse, but thats your own risk.
????
Well, now I have 2 people in my killfile... though I don't imagine it will matter much after Don reads that...
As for erratta and such, every RPG out there says something to the effect of "change what you don't like". If there is an error, or you think something doesn't work right, you don't need an official errata. Just fix it. Unless you're playing a living campaign where it's important for players scattered around the world to use the same rules, having the exact same interpretation is irrelevant.
Putting out a quality product with as few errors as possible would seem to be important in any industry, and the RPG industry as a whole needs improvement in this area, but I don't think Decipher is any worse than most other RPG companies in this regard.
Quote:
Originally posted by kong
please dont accuse me of behaviour i havent portrayed, its really out of order.
Yeah, he's in my ignore list as well. After arguing pointlessly with him earlier, I have given up trying. If he's who I suspect he is, then he's already been banned from the Decipher boards, and permanently banned from rpg.net.Quote:
Originally posted by calguard66
????
Well, now I have 2 people in my killfile... though I don't imagine it will matter much after Don reads that...
...
Putting out a quality product with as few errors as possible would seem to be important in any industry, and the RPG industry as a whole needs improvement in this area, but I don't think Decipher is any worse than most other RPG companies in this regard.
And I'd actually like to commend Decipher for the fact that they have been very public (if slow) about making errata and support documents available.
Many other games release and never offer any online support or errata, despite how much it might be needed. However, given the high profile of this particular line, and the rabid intensity of some online personalities, they seem to be a target for attacks, regardless of what they say or how fast they say it.
>As for erratta and such, every RPG out there says something to the effect of "change what you don't like".
does that give the publisher carte blanche to trot out poorly designed and produced games?
you have compeltely misunderstood the meaning of the phrase.
>If there is an error, or you think something doesn't work right, you don't need an official errata. Just fix it.
why would i want to fix it? im not an expert with the CODA system. if i wanted to design my own rules then i woudlnt have spent £25 in the first place, surely. your argument just doesnt hold water. it isnt my responsibilioty to creat e workable system, and if every rpg publisher shared this idea the indisutry would go the way of the dinosaur faster than you can say 'elendil'.
of course if people want to fix their own rules, that is entirely their priviliege, it just shouldnt be the norm.
>Unless you're playing a living campaign where it's important for players scattered around the world to use the same rules, having the exact same interpretation is irrelevant.
your argument just doesnt hold water in the least. the point of buyng a set of rules is so that the narrator doesnt have to create his own or worry about how the rules work. with a confident set of rules he can get on with telling the story and not have to worry about whether certain basic functions of the rules work. thats the whole point.
have we gotten so lost that even this basic truth is in doubt?
thats very sad.
>Putting out a quality product with as few errors as possible would seem to be important in any industry, and the RPG industry as a whole needs improvement in this area, but I don't think Decipher is any worse than most other RPG companies in this regard.
i can only assume that you have very limited knowledge of other games and companies, beause you most certainly wouldnt have that opinion if you had. it is simply not true at all.
I like Deciphers LOTR RPG. It captures Tolkien's world perfectly.
As an experienced gamer I (or my group) cannot really see any game stopping errors in the core rulebook.
I think TSR used to have the slogan 'products of your imagination'. I liked that slogan. It summed up RPGs (and wargames). They are about imagination. If one expects a rulebook to cover EVERY eventuality then find another hobby. Its all about imagination. If there seems to be a problem with the rules as presented in the core book, use your imagination to get round the problem.
its a better approach to fantasy gaming, however it isnt inherently especially tolkienesque. haracters for instance cannot start as rangers or even captains; besides the question of non-istari 'magicians' isnt very tolkienesque.Quote:
Originally posted by Brandir
I like Deciphers LOTR RPG. It captures Tolkien's world perfectly.
As an experienced gamer I (or my group) cannot really see any game stopping errors in the core rulebook.
I think TSR used to have the slogan 'products of your imagination'. I liked that slogan. It summed up RPGs (and wargames). They are about imagination. If one expects a rulebook to cover EVERY eventuality then find another hobby. Its all about imagination. If there seems to be a problem with the rules as presented in the core book, use your imagination to get round the problem.
Why can't a character start as a ranger or captain?Quote:
Originally posted by kong
its a better approach to fantasy gaming, however it isnt inherently especially tolkienesque. haracters for instance cannot start as rangers or even captains; besides the question of non-istari 'magicians' isnt very tolkienesque.
The rules don't prohibit beginning characters from having some advancements before playing, do they?
Shouldn't the Narrator be the one to decide how powerful they want their player-characters to be?
The question of non-Istari magicians has been discussed ad nauseum on the Decipher boards. Doesn't it just boil down to a matter of taste? If you don't like the notion, then don't let your players create magician characters.
However, I suspect that you're not actually interested in Narrating the LotR RPG, but rather just complaining about it and whatever flaws it might have.
Characters can absolutely start out as rangers or captains.
There is no rule prohibiting that characters must start out advancement-less. The rules for rangers and captains insure that such characters have a certain level of competence.
The Star Trek rules have the same mechanism, whereby a higher ranking character will have advancements.
I should note that I was asking these questions back at kong in answer to his statements.Quote:
Originally posted by Jason Durall
Why can't a character start as a ranger or captain?
The rules don't prohibit beginning characters from having some advancements before playing, do they?
Shouldn't the Narrator be the one to decide how powerful they want their player-characters to be?
>The rules don't prohibit beginning characters from having some advancements before playing, do they?
i never said they did.
what i said was that the elite orders, by default, are not for starting characters.
>The question of non-Istari magicians has been discussed ad nauseum on the Decipher boards. Doesn't it just boil down to a matter of taste? If you don't like the notion, then don't let your players create magician characters.
well yes and no. yes if you want to turn tolkiens world into something other than what it is, for whatever reason; and no its not a matter of taste because tolkiens 'rules', if you like, are already laid down.
if you want to change the rules then do so aware that yo are creating a different world.
>However, I suspect that you're not actually interested in Narrating the LotR RPG, but rather just complaining about it and whatever flaws it might have.
you can suspect what youd like; given that im running it right now youd be wrong, again.
>The Star Trek rules have the same mechanism, whereby a higher ranking character will have advancements.
which is a silly rule rreally considering these sorts of characters are the kind of characters players want to play.
So, are you allowing magician characters?Quote:
Originally posted by kong
you can suspect what youd like; given that im running it right now youd be wrong, again.
And what else have I been wrong about?
Kong, higher ranking characters have more advancements which means they are more experienced then lower ranking characters. I am not talking just rank as in Ensign, Lieutenant JG, Lt, etc... I am talking in stature. The leader of the US armed forces has more experience with tactical manuevers then a private has. Would you want a private running the US army?
(This is not a political thread I just took a simple everyday example and put it into easy terms. Thank You :) )
I believe this thread has outlived its usefulness. It has completely diverged from its original topic and, despite the warning given a few days back by Don, at least one poster continues to project the same argumentative attitude as before.
So, without any further adieu, this thread is closed.