Enterprise E in Combat (Warning: SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN NEMESIS)

Captain Anderson brought up an interesting point about the Enterprise E's climactic battle with the Scimitar. He was disappointed by the end battle because he felt that the Enterprise E should not have been punked out by the Scimitar, when it stood up so well against the Borg Cube in First Contact.
I offer a couple of explanations as to why the Enterprise E did get the lower hand in NEMESIS.


1. In First Contact, the Enterprise E was fresh into the fight. The Borg cube was preoccupied with the currently attacking ships, having only a moment or two to attempt to focus on the new arrival. Also, Picard had inside knowledge on where to strike a Borg Cube. Not to mention, the Enterprise was constructed in advanced designs that the Borg had not seen yet.
Granted, the newer ASDB ships were there (Akira, Steamrunner), but the Enterprise was the creme de la creme of ASDB. As for the Defiant, well, it obviously did not perform as well against the Borg cube as the ASDB had anticipated.

2. The Scimitar knocked out the Enterprise's warp drive on its first attacks, thereby effectively depriving Enterprise of perhaps two thirds of its combat power, relying solely on Impulse Power.
Not to mention that the Enterprise did not have much of a tactical assessment beyond Worf's initial scans. (Myriad disruptor and torpedo banks, Primary and Secondary shields.) Now, the Remans had been utilized in the Dominion War, with Shinzon in command of various campaigns. It is very possible that he had seen the performance of Quantum Torpedoes first hand, and was thus able to create effective countermeasures against them. Not to mention that the Scimitar was able to fire with the cloaking device on....thus making it difficult for Enterprise to lock onto it. (Hmmm....perhaps he was able to recover secret archived plans to General Chang's prototype Bird of Prey in ST VI). For all intents and purposes, the Enterprise was definitely caught with its britches down.

Consider too, that in Insurrection, the Enterprise was fighting in the Briar Patch, which seemed to affect improperly configured ships attempting to travel at higher impulse velocities. Apparently, the Briar Patch also affected their photon torpedo sensors.

Basically the Enterprise is a damn good combat vessel, as long as it's had plenty of time to prepare, and can act in a timely manner. When it gets caught blind....well, we've seen the consequences....the Enterprise has to sacrifice something to win. Whether it be a warp core, or 30% of its saucer section.

Any other takers?

Respectfully,
General Chang

very good analysis!

I think that if it were not for Picard knowing exactly where to strike at the Borg Cube the Enterprise-E would have joined its sister ships in "starship heaven" ;)

:D Thanks, Snake



Respectfully,
General Chang

On top of that, it wouldn't be much fun if the good guys could just lick the badguys without even breaking a sweat.

Those some really good points.


Still hard to see that happen to such a fine vessel.

Believe me, Captain. I share those sentiments. Very very disenheartening to see the pride of Starfleet get pimp-smacked around like it did....and when it came to sheer brute force, the Enterprise gave as good as it got....again, just at a sacrifice or two. Very disheartening indeed.

Respectfully,
General Chang

P.S. To Rayaru, your subject line said it the best:
"Suspension of Disbelief."

Q'apla!

This analysis seems reasonable.

Keep in mind that the Scimitar was designed to be a WARship and has many more dedicated systems to use when in battle. Yes, the Sovereign is a beautiful ship but unlike most of the other powers and their vessels it is a multi-purpose starship and therefore will not stack up quite as well against other starships dedicated to one role.

Regards,
CKV.

Agreed, Captain Vaughn.

Yes, most all the other powers of the Alpha Quadrant design WAR ships. The Klingons, The Romulans/Remans, The Cardassians. Starfleet's only true WAR ship is the USS Defiant, and then at that, it is a veiled term. The official designation for the Defiant is an escort ship.

But I miss the point....the point being that Federation starships are true multi-purpose vessels, designed for exploration, diplomacy, and comfort, with defense/tactical actions as a secondary concern. One can always continue the age old debate of whether or not Starfleet is a military organization til the cows come home, but that is another thread....probably long since beaten into the dirt.

Granted the more advanced ships like the Sovereigns, Akiras, and Defiant classes are equipped with Quantum Torpedoes and upgraded phaser systems, but in truth, their weapons still do not pack the sheer ferocity of Klingon or Romulan ordnance. Starfleet will disable a ship if possible, destroy if necessary. The Klingons or the Romulans on the other hand have enemy destruction fully in mind with their weapons.

That is why I think a Vor'Cha class might give a Sovereign class a run for its money.

Respectfully,
General Chang

Quote:

---

Originally posted by General Chang
Captain Anderson brought up an interesting point about the Enterprise E's climactic battle with the Scimitar. He was disappointed by the end battle because he felt that the Enterprise E should not have been punked out by the Scimitar, when it stood up so well against the Borg Cube in First Contact.
I offer a couple of explanations as to why the Enterprise E did get the lower hand in NEMESIS.


1. In First Contact, the Enterprise E was fresh into the fight. The Borg cube was preoccupied with the currently attacking ships, having only a moment or two to attempt to focus on the new arrival. Also, Picard had inside knowledge on where to strike a Borg Cube. Not to mention, the Enterprise was constructed in advanced designs that the Borg had not seen yet.
Granted, the newer ASDB ships were there (Akira, Steamrunner), but the Enterprise was the creme de la creme of ASDB. As for the Defiant, well, it obviously did not perform as well against the Borg cube as the ASDB had anticipated.

2. The Scimitar knocked out the Enterprise's warp drive on its first attacks, thereby effectively depriving Enterprise of perhaps two thirds of its combat power, relying solely on Impulse Power.
Not to mention that the Enterprise did not have much of a tactical assessment beyond Worf's initial scans. (Myriad disruptor and torpedo banks, Primary and Secondary shields.) Now, the Remans had been utilized in the Dominion War, with Shinzon in command of various campaigns. It is very possible that he had seen the performance of Quantum Torpedoes first hand, and was thus able to create effective countermeasures against them. Not to mention that the Scimitar was able to fire with the cloaking device on....thus making it difficult for Enterprise to lock onto it. (Hmmm....perhaps he was able to recover secret archived plans to General Chang's prototype Bird of Prey in ST VI). For all intents and purposes, the Enterprise was definitely caught with its britches down.

Consider too, that in Insurrection, the Enterprise was fighting in the Briar Patch, which seemed to affect improperly configured ships attempting to travel at higher impulse velocities. Apparently, the Briar Patch also affected their photon torpedo sensors.

Basically the Enterprise is a damn good combat vessel, as long as it's had plenty of time to prepare, and can act in a timely manner. When it gets caught blind....well, we've seen the consequences....the Enterprise has to sacrifice something to win. Whether it be a warp core, or 30% of its saucer section.

Any other takers?

Respectfully,
General Chang

---

Whoa.. u must be a real general!!

Ummm.....not quite sure how to take that last entry. So I'll just chuckle nervously. heh heh

Respectfully,
General Chang

It probably could but then there are a number of variables that come into play on that one. I think the Sovereign would have an edge due to power availability but as with all things - that is only on paper.

In game and when one brings luck into it, anything can happen.

Regards,
CKV.

Well....at one time I remember when a friend and I used to play the old FASA Starship Combat Simulator, I used a Construction Manual to create the Vor'Cha, and it was a nasty ship. Although this was waayyyyyyyyyy before the Sovereign was even a gleam in Paramount's eye. :D

I have never been able to play the LUG Trek combat system...neither the system in the Core Rule Books, nor the Spacedock manual...(proud to have downloaded that sucker).
But you are right, your point applies to RPG ships as well as real life warships and fighters, and the like: It doesn't matter how high tech or bad arsed your ship looks on paper, it's the crews that make it good or bad.

Now, I do play Bridge Commander on the PC, and most of the time, I can take a Vor'Cha and give a computer controlled Sovereign (set on High Intelligence) a run for its money. Playing it online....well, not only is there the opposing player's skill to take into consideration, but there is also lag, the possibility that the opponent might be cheating...arghhh. On a level playing field, (no lag, no cheaters), I can give a Sovereign a run for its money (before it unceremoniously blasts me out of the stars.) Many times, I will find myself in a Klingon BOP, or a Vor'Cha, or perhaps even a Romulan Warbird, pretending that I am Shinzon, about to kick the living targ poo out of Picard. :D

Respectfully,
General Chang

Ah a Vor'Cha Vs. a Sovereign... interesting!

well if we use solely Starship as a reference and all things being equal (mainly, both ships' crews being of equal skill) then the Vor'Cha, I'm afraid, won't last long against the Sovereign. The Sovereign has ablative armor and regenerative shields, which have double the treshold value of the Vor'Cha's (!) The same thing applies to the Sovereign's torpedo strength, which is more than double that of the Vor'Cha. Succinctly put, the Sovereign can dish out more damage than the Vor'Cha and it can take more damage as well. The only slight advantage the Vor'Cha has over the Sovereign is that its tactical and helm maneuver ratings are each a point higher.

That being said I think that the Klingon ships in Starship are way undergunned, for a race of uber-warriors anyways. Even the Negh'Var is a relative wimp (!) I think that the concept for Klingons in Starship is that they have quantity over quality. The only standout quality Klingon ships seem to have is their overall durability. Starfleet may have its powerful Sovereign but it only has a handful, while the Klingons have whole fleets of Vor'Chas. Thus, the Sovereign is on a per-ship basis stronger than the Vor'Cha; yet a Sovereign-class ship fighting Klingons will most likely face a pair of Vor'Chas instead of just one.

Outside of "DecTrek" Personally I'd see the Vor'Cha as being able to project a devastating amount of power with its disruptors and being a very durable ship in combat, having especially a very high level of weapon redundancy. The ship's supposed to have 18 disruptors after all. Otherwise I'd see it as having only medium shields. I see the Vor'Cha as one giant space gun array (!)

I would love to see the Decipher rules on Starship combat and strength.. Decipher materials for Star Trek are hard to find in Charleston, WV.

Now that you put it that way, Snake, I kinda agree that perhaps a single Sov versus a single Vor' Cha would be pretty devastating for the Vor'Cha. Again, different games have different representations for the ships too. Video Games like Bridge Commander represent the Vor'Cha as a formidable single combat starship. I do not know how well it performs in SFC3 or even in Dominion Wars.

You're right about the Vor'Cha basically being a big "space gun".
It's forward disruptor bank is supposedly a very powerful weapon.
Augmented with the 18 disruptors, of which I would assume some could fire in the forward arc..and it's photon torpedo launchers....that is some serious firepower to bear on a single target. Two Vor'Cha's on a Sovereign,....I'd pray for the Sov crew.

And of course, the Klingons rarely operate in less than elements of three ships. (Unless you're Commander Kruge, General Chang, or Chancelor Martok.) Considering that Klingons use cloaking devices.....a lot.....I would venture to say that the element of surprise and numbers would greatly favor the Klingons.

Overall though, I think I must concede that a Sovereign represented in canonized fashion would tear up a single Vor'Cha, but not after taking severe damage itself.

Respectfully,
General Chang (you know...the dead Klingon?) LOL!

The problem with simplistic combat systems is just that - they are simplistic and tend I find not to be very representative of what is seen on screen.

FASA's system certainly had kinks especially once TNG started. A friend and I rewrote the system and construction manual and we created a fairly balanced result that seemed to reflect what we saw on screen.

LUG then came out and won us over for its RPG system and character creation. The starship combat though was on the simple side and we found it was not to the level of representation that we desired so we stuck with our rework of FASA's materials but used LUG in all other respects.

Then Spacedock came out and we've used that ever since. Even with these stats though in a stand-up fight the Sovereign will reduce the Vor'cha to so much space dust. However, a properly employed cloak will go a long way toward evening up the odds.
That said, the odds are still in the Sovereign's favor but the Vor'cha could still give it a good run for its money.

I have not played enough with Starships to have an opinion beyond that it is more detailed than LUG's original combat system but still quite simplistic for the detail that we prefer. This is not a bash on the system or the people that prefer a cleaner streamlined system of starship combat just a comment on our own preferences. So please do not take it as such as that is not the intent. Besides others have already given a review based on that system.

Though I will say this regardless of the system, there are too many factors to say how something will turn out in play if the ships are on par and a decent player or GM is controlling the vessel.

Regards,
CKV.

After watching that combat scene at the end, I need to know what happened to the shields of the mighty Sovereign used in Insurrection and First Contact. From an energy bubble to a tight fitting shield system that resembled polarized hull plating. What is the deal? The latter did not seem to give any protection what so ever for the Enterprise-E.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Capt. Anderson
After watching that combat scene at the end, I need to know what happened to the shields of the mighty Sovereign used in Insurrection and First Contact. From an energy bubble to a tight fitting shield system that resembled polarized hull plating. What is the deal? The latter did not seem to give any protection what so ever for the Enterprise-E.

---

Hmmmmm..........that is a good question.

If you are referring to the visual effects aspect of it, the only thing I can possibly offer as an explanation....and probably one that will be blasted by NEMESIS' detractors, is that they left the visual effect out for dramatic purposes. I know it doesn't make much sense, but I have often heard one two many times how something may be omitted or included for sheer dramatic purpose.

Again, one can only offer possibilities as to what happened. I would venture to guess three possibilities.

1. Remember, Shinzon's first attack completely knocked out their warp drive. So, their combat power was effectively reduced. That is probably why their shields didn't hold so well during the battle. Impulse power for the sake of power and maneuvering is too little to spread so thinly.

2. Another possibility is that the Enterprise-E was running at high warp with shields down (doubtful though since the ship was at Red Alert from the time Picard was captured). But, the reason I say it as a possibility is to allow for extra energy to get that extra bit o' warp speed whilst it hauls tail to the Fleet waiting on the other side of the Rift.

3. One more possibility (to my knowledge not even mentioned in the novel), is that perhaps the Remans were able to create a sort of Quantum Torpedo of their own. This kinda ties in with my earlier essay about Shinzon seeing the effects of the Starfleet Q.T. first hand during their many engagements against the Dominion. (Hmmmm.....I am thinking this could make for an interesting sideline for my fan-fiction NEMESIS sequel.)


Again, these are only possibilities that may or may not make sense. That is the thing I LOVE about Star Trek. If the fans want to justify a scenario to themselves, and perhaps help others see what may or may not have happened, they can do so.
This kinda falls back on my theory about if NEMESIS were a stand alone movie with no ties to any sci-fi franchise. Without nearly 40 years of Star Trek history to fall back on, NEMESIS' failure at the box office, and with critics and potential fans would have been much more pronounced.

But, since NEMESIS is Star Trek, the fans can draw upon that vast history to answer certain questions for themselves...just like they did for another little known (sarcastic) Trek movie called "The Wrath of Khan."

Sorry, did I just go off on another tangent.:D

Respectfully,
General Chang

You know, there's another way to look at this:

the Enterprise took on a ship easily three times it's size and 4-5 times it's mass armed with 50+ disruptor banks and 20+ torpedo bays and ONLY lost 15-20 of itself in the process. It took a pounding that by rights should have reduced it to component parts (and WOULD most any other ship of similar stats).

Wimpy starship my a**! Big E did herself PROUD that day!

I must agree with darkwing. The Enterprise took on a ship almost as powerful as an Imperial Star Destroyer! I think she fared quite well considering. I also agree with the good generals analysis which is pretty much on the mark. The Enterprise was at a disadvantage frommthe begining. The Enterprise did outlast two romulan warbirds, and the Enterprise did manage to do a lot of damage to the Scimitar before Picard used the "Troi Maneuver" which is of course the act of crashing the ship into something.:D

Keep in mind that Shinzon wanted Picard alive. He could not do that by unleashing the full firepower against the E now could he. He needed Picard to live.

Shinzon had no such constraints against the Warbirds.

Regards,
CKV.

About the shield effect thing, my take was that they had changed the shields design, to be much more fitting to the form of the ship. After all, it must cost much less energy to have tight, form-fitting shield all around the ship than a huge bubble making three time the ship's size. OTOH this would be more difficult to control by computer, explaining why this upgrade could not be made before (and is now only done on Sovereigns).

Then again, transporter and warp effects have been constantly changing from one movie and serie to another....

Remember the Enterprise had the left wing and nacelle of the romulan ship bounce off the right saucer section and nacelle during the fight. That was not just a little tap on the hull. I believe the Enterprise did very well. I agree that Shinzon was trying to capture the Picard so did not use full weapons. :)

I'm not so sure about the shield thing. The Enterprise A had hull conformal shileding that was 90 years in the past from the E's perspective. I think its a matter taste VFX wise. As far as Treknical reasons upgrades sound as good as any;) Shinzon did want Picard alive. I guess the Enterprise really did take a spanking!!! I just have one question. If the Enterprise had no shields and rammed shinzon I could see her taking damage, But it was stated that the Scimitar still had 70% shields.mSo what the hell happened? I mean if simply ramming a ship is so devastating then I'd have to seriously the strength of Trek weapons. Consider all the hits Scimitar's shields took from the combined assault from The Warbirds and Enterprise, which unleashed quantum and photon torpedoes as well as the fury of type XII phasers. I know the all missed alot but they also hit quite a few times. Then they all that only did 30% to his shields. Then the Enterprise just walks right up and parks on top of the Scimitar using the "Troi Maneuver" . Are trek shields just Ray shields like in Star Wars or what? I think that kind of damage could be inflicted by typical trek weapons considering what a Borg Cube did to the Melbourne at the battle of Wolf 359. Or what the Enterrise did to the Reliant in TWOK. But that was done with shields down on both vessels. The Scimitar still had 70% on her shields, so what happened???

Quote:

---

Originally posted by buck rogers
If the Enterprise had no shields and rammed shinzon I could see her taking damage, But it was stated that the Scimitar still had 70% shields.mSo what the hell happened? I mean if simply ramming a ship is so devastating then I'd have to seriously the strength of Trek weapons. Consider all the hits Scimitar's shields took from the combined assault from The Warbirds and Enterprise, which unleashed quantum and photon torpedoes as well as the fury of type XII phasers. I know the all missed alot but they also hit quite a few times. Then they all that only did 30% to his shields. Then the Enterprise just walks right up and parks on top of the Scimitar using the "Troi Maneuver" .

---

Well, there was also the salvo Worf fired under Troi's guidance, which used the last torpedoes. That hit was a dead on shot, thanks to Troi's targeting information, and likely would have done more damage than a "glancing" hit. They also hit the body of the Scimitar, not the "wings", meaning even MORE likelihood of severe damage, at least to the shields. We know that it did enough damage to take out the cloaking system, so it must've been bad.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by buck rogers
I'm not so sure about the shield thing. The Enterprise A had hull conformal shileding that was 90 years in the past from the E's perspective. I think its a matter taste VFX wise. As far as Treknical reasons upgrades sound as good as any;) Shinzon did want Picard alive. I guess the Enterprise really did take a spanking!!! I just have one question. If the Enterprise had no shields and rammed shinzon I could see her taking damage, But it was stated that the Scimitar still had 70% shields.mSo what the hell happened? I mean if simply ramming a ship is so devastating then I'd have to seriously the strength of Trek weapons. Consider all the hits Scimitar's shields took from the combined assault from The Warbirds and Enterprise, which unleashed quantum and photon torpedoes as well as the fury of type XII phasers. I know the all missed alot but they also hit quite a few times. Then they all that only did 30% to his shields. Then the Enterprise just walks right up and parks on top of the Scimitar using the "Troi Maneuver" . Are trek shields just Ray shields like in Star Wars or what? I think that kind of damage could be inflicted by typical trek weapons considering what a Borg Cube did to the Melbourne at the battle of Wolf 359. Or what the Enterrise did to the Reliant in TWOK. But that was done with shields down on both vessels. The Scimitar still had 70% on her shields, so what happened???

---

Hot damn, I love this thread! (Pats self on back...and thanks Capt. Anderson for the inspiration to this thread.) :D

Star Trek has also utilized some sci-fi characteristics from other sci-fi sources....and I think it might explain some of the anomalous effects behind shield usage.


1. It is quite possible that starships utilize two types of shielding....(Navigational Deflectors notwithstanding.) Star Wars RPG's from West End Games referred to ships having both particle shielding (protection against physical attacks), and ray sheilding (protection against directed energy attacks). Now, this possibility only THINLY holds up. I would venture to say that the shields used aboard starships in Trek are mostly "ray shielding"...so they do well against phasers, disruptors, lasers and the like, and do decent against torpedo weapons. However, I have rarely seen their shields do well against asteroid impacts.
That would probably explain part one of why ships do much more damage (to their targets as well as themselves) during physical collisions.

2. Also, consider that deflector shields may also discriminate based on speed. In DUNE....the personal shields used by the Atreides will deflect rapid attacks against the user, but will allow slow moving attacks, and objects to pass right through the shield barrier. We have also seen evidence of this in STAR WARS Episode I, when the battle droids ceased their artillery assault on the Gungan shield bubble, and just walked right through, no problem. I surmise that the same applies to Trek shields on ships. Phasers are Light Speed weapons, and photon torpedoes travel at near light speed from an Impulse powered launch (can sustain superluminal velocities if fired at warp). In either case, energy and missile weapons travel at a much faster speed than starships during combat. A slow moving starship could probably pass right through another ships shield perimeter, and inflict the physical hull damage to the target. Now, at this point, one may ask, "Well, what if said attacking starship was travelling at warp? Would that mean that speed discriminate shield systems would deflect the incoming starship?" No, because a starship is hundreds of times the mass of a missile weapon, and of course could probably destroy an entire planet if it were to collide with said planet, with all anti-matter devices exploding. This whole speculation probably just opened a whole new can of worms, but that's why I love this thread so much. :D


BTW, that's clever. "The Troi Maneuver." LMAO!

Anyhoo...I hope that my theories behind shield physics make some sense. I have really seen a lot of good questions and postulations pop up in this thread. Please, let's keep it coming.


Respectfully,
General Chang

Quote:

---

Originally posted by darkwing duck1
Well, there was also the salvo Worf fired under Troi's guidance, which used the last torpedoes. That hit was a dead on shot, thanks to Troi's targeting information, and likely would have done more damage than a "glancing" hit. They also hit the body of the Scimitar, not the "wings", meaning even MORE likelihood of severe damage, at least to the shields. We know that it did enough damage to take out the cloaking system, so it must've been bad.

---

Hmmn I still don't buy it. Those shots shouldn't have done much with the little damage the scimitar had.

However, I do think that the scimitar was written way over the top... I like over the top, but it was even much for me. A lot of things were unexplained in a way that was more annoying than compelling. Although I loved the look of the battle, the logic of it just didn't work for me.

Buck you are so overinflating the Scimitars power .No ship the Federation,Romulans,Dominion,Cardassians,Breen,Tho lians,Klingons,Borg,Species 8472,Hirogen,Kazon have has a snowballs hchance of beating a Star Destroyer one on one.The evidence is heavily and I mean HEAVILY weighed against it.

? huh ?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Typhonis 1
Buck you are so overinflating the Scimitars power .No ship the Federation,Romulans,Dominion,Cardassians,Breen,Tho lians,Klingons,Borg,Species 8472,Hirogen,Kazon have has a snowballs hchance of beating a Star Destroyer one on one.The evidence is heavily and I mean HEAVILY weighed against it.

---

Can we please keep the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate out of this thread, Typhonis? I really don't care how one stacks up against another. They're two different universes, and have absolutely no business being co-mingled in a "Star Trek Chat" thread about the Enterprise-E's capabilities in combat.

Back on topic, the E-E suffers primarily by the fact that it's gone up against more powerful ships in the the three movies it was involved in.

I also think that people forget that the Sovereign-class is still an explorer, and not a pure warship. Against a warship of similar or larger size, it's going to have problems.

Versus the Son'a, the E-E also has to deal with "terrain" issues and the Son'a themselves cheating (subspace weapons). In Nemesis, the Eneterprise faces what can only be described as a plot device. In the scope of that episode/movie, I wouldn't give the Scimitar stats and force the PCs to come up with an alternative solution to defeat Shinzon.

So, while we've seen the Enterprise getting outmatched on screen, I'd say that it is partly because they were facing much tougher foes than we've seen before (in, say, the TV series vs. the E-D).

well in any case in both Spacedock and the CODA system the Sovereign class is a tough ship. Especially in Starship- it is- by far- the most powerful non-"plot device species" ship. It could take on a D'Deridex warbird or a Negh'Var dreadnought and easily win.

That's the one nice thing I like to do in my RPGs, occassionally give the PC's a threat vessel that they can handle so they can showcase their ship and take some pride in its capabilities.

It would be nice to see that once in awhile for the Federation Flagship.

Regards,
CKV.

I'm a big fan of the E-E. It is one of the most powerful ships in the Alpha/Beta quadrant. I would have rather have seen it go down with Shizon had just outnumbered it with Warbirds than to have one really large ship. This would have made for more epic battle between Shizon and Picard. With Picard outwitting his opponents in battle and at the the end it would just be E-E and Shizon flagship. I would have walked away and said, now that was a great battle.

Personally, I do have to admit, I would love to have seen a killer battle between the fleet that the Ent E was rushing toward and the Scimitar. The Scimitar could have blown away a few of the Federation ships, and then, here come the Valdore class Warbirds to the rescue. All of the sudden, you have the combined forces of the remaining Starfleet craft and the Romulan ships against the Scimitar.

Just an idea. :D

Respectfully,
General Chang

Quote:

---

Originally posted by General Chang
It is quite possible that starships utilize two types of shielding....(Navigational Deflectors notwithstanding.)

---

As far as I can remember you might be correct. In one Star Trek novel (I think it was "Federation") the Enterprise-D was severely damaged. Two opposing Warbirds were involved and the E-D hid between the nacelles of a cloaked friendly Warbird. No options left, Picard decided to use "The Troi Maneuver". Navigational Deflectors (I think that in normal situations they are used against little space debris and stuff during warpflight) to full power and ramming speed. One of the opposing Warbirds was history. So, if the Scimitar wasn't prepared for "The Troi Maneuver" or if the ship wasn't able to raise the "correct" shields, it could have worked.

by the way: I loved the battle against the Scimitar :D

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Liz Not Beth
The Troi Maneuver:

1) Take helm.
2) Crash into large object.
3) Blame Riker.
4) Preform oral sex on members of investagating board, thusly avoiding court-marshal.
5) Repeat steps 1-4 two movies later.

Prehaps Killerwhale will put this in his Starship Ops book? :D

---

*Laugh* There are days that one must truly appreciate mild evil at its most humerous.

Regards,
CKV.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Capt. K. Vaughn
*Laugh* There are days that one must truly appreciate mild evil at its most humerous.

Regards,
CKV.

---

I suppose that's better than at its most ulnar? :p

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D Although, it is somewhat appropriate, given Liz's medical background... :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Sea Tyger
I suppose that's better than at its most ulnar? :p

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D Although, it is somewhat appropriate, given Liz's medical background... :)

---

Tired, rushed and bored. Bad combination for errors not getting caught. That said, after a wonderful six hour massage it is time for me to get to bed.

Regards,
CKV.

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Copying and pasting from a post I made at TrekBBS(Should probably pay more attention to these boards, much more civil here.)

The fact that they scored any solid hits at all is a pretty good accounting for the ship.(I believe this 70% thing was actually a revision made by the director to make it more drastic. Original script for Nem had Scimitar actually suffering damage once the Enterprise found her via Troi.)

Should be noted that a Klingon Bird of Prey was more than capable of handling 2 full-fledged Federation ships of the line(Excelsior and Enterprise) due to the advantage given by her cloak. If not for Spock one could make the argument that "Chang's Bird of Prey is more powerful than the Enterprise." Obviously due to tight SFX budgets we didn't get to see Kirk spray phaser fire everywhere in TUC, but it did seem pretty obvious that Chang was able to completely dominate that particular battlefield with a single torpedo launcher(as opposed to something like 20-someodd of them that Shinzon had) and two far superior sized opponents.

It should also be noted that the Enterprise seemed to be fighting without her warp core operational(Um yeah, plothole here as to how the heck Shinzon got through the shields and disabled the core, but oh well) which would add to giving a good accounting.

Either way the advantage in being able to pick and choose your shots as opposed to flailing blindly at your opponent is immense. Can't hurt what you can't see, and the likelihood of your relatively few successful hits doing damage would be minute.(And since in the movie shields seemed to be operating by location/angle Scimitar would have a massive advantage by being able to spread fire through several of her arcs)


Basically the thing is, if a BoP with a fire through cloak can beat up two of the Federation's finest...what can a ship that's actually BIGGER than the Federation's finest do when equipped with a similar(and unseekable) cloak?