What would happen to Species 8472 if genesis "torpedoes" were employed as weapons to attack the bioships? I think they would be quite effective at destroying their ships.
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What would happen to Species 8472 if genesis "torpedoes" were employed as weapons to attack the bioships? I think they would be quite effective at destroying their ships.
One minor problem, the Gensis device would probably not be mass produced quickly enough to destroy all of the bioships that would be invading?
Theoretically it would be since it would kill every living thing, and then rewrite it, sort of speak.
I can't remember but is Fluidic space living? If it is then that would be an extremely effective weapon. You could "eat" up all of fluidic space.
This is what I was thinking it would be used as a last ditch effort to stop the "Incursion" the name of an adventure I'm coming up with. It would be the miracle the characters need after they go through a disaster war of the worlds type adventure.
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Sounds like a plan! :DQuote:
Originally posted by StyroFoam Man
'sides... what are you going to turn it into? Coffee?
I can think of a number of people that would love to have that large of a supply of coffee. *grin*
Regards,
CKV.
Well even if it would. I wouldn't do that for dramatic plot reasons. After all it you destroyed all of fluidic space you'd pretty much close the door to Species 8472 as a bad guy. I mean there would no doubt be survivors but the intimidation factor would certianly be gone. No instead I think "genesis" protomatter torpedoes could be used to takeout say an area 1 AU across. Enough to scare the piss outa species 8472, but not wipe them out completly. Also it would be good as an anti-bioship weapon. I figure they one torpedo could at least take one ship. As far mass producing them at first they would be rare for dramatic storytelling but as the war gets more intense Starfleet would most likely refine its manufacturing process.
Not to mention that the ship that fires the torpedo better get the hell out of there quickly. The Genesis effect seemed to be a subspace shockwave that reached out a few dozen light-seconds, nearly catching the crippled Enterprise as she fled the scene.
An AU is effectively 500 light-seconds across (499.28 something...remember, a light-second is just short of 300 thousand kilometers); the subspace shockwave didn't seem (of course, this is just going by what I watched on screen :) ) to travel that far. Maybe it absorbs everything within a 0.2 AU (about 100 light-seconds) radius, when not fired at a planet (which would absorb most of the energy output as the Genesis matrix takes effect...in the simulation, the Genesis effect is limited to the surface of the planetoid, which seems to indicate that much of the explosion that we saw in space isn't present when applied to a significant celestial body).
Sounds like the Star Trek version of Hiroshima and Nagasaki which could lead to some interesting attempts at peace talks while keeping Species 8472 around.
I have to agree with SeaTyger here, the massive explosion we see in WoK has more to do with the device needing to absorb x amount of material and expanding outward to get it then an actual fixed area of effect. Given the mass of a planet, it would not have to go that far to obtain the needed material.
Regards,
CKV.
The effect had to be large enough to absorb the nebula in it's matrix. My theory as to why it failed was becasue of the type of matter used to create the Genesis planet.
The effect though does not have to be based upon area as a need to absorb x amount of material. A planet will have far more material then a nebula, hence the reason we see the Genesis effect spread over such a large area.
After all, the proposal does seem to indicate that the effect would be limited to the planet being terraformed with the device.
As to why it failed, it could be any number of reasons, I tend to use both the instability in protomatter and the material absorbed during the detonation myself.
Regards,
CKV.
I'm guessing proto-matter would be the worst bottleneck in the manufacturing process. Anybody know it there's any scientific basis for proto-matter, or is it just classic Treknobabble? In my mind, it's much rarer and more expensive than anti-matter.
Protomatter is the theoretical step between matter and energy in the first nanoseconds of the Big Bang. There is at least one reference to protomatter research in TNG.
IMSHO, Genesis research didn't completely stop with the Genesis Planet incident. If you recall, the first stage was in a lab, and the second stage in a cave on Regula. Both were apparently stable. It wasn't until the third, planetary-scale, experiment that Dr. David Marcus introduced protomatter into the equation.
The first-stage, laboratory level experiments proceeded and (to get Biblical) bore fruit. Lessee, on a desktop level, you dematerialise matter and reconstitute it in the form you desire. Sound familiar?
"Tea, Earl Grey, hot."
Oh, very good, Owen. Nice tie-in! :)
I think the primary reason for the failure of the Genesis device is obvious. It was never designed or intended to be used in a nebula. It could not be considered a failure until it was tested under the conditions for which it was designed.
I'm pretty sure that replicator technology is based on transporter technology. There is no mention of using any of the technology that was applied to the "Genesis" project. As far as the nebula material being the reason why the matrix failed, interesting but idea but I'm not sure I agree. The first small scale test (lab, and cave) were never really elaborated on in the movie. Do you have other sources that talk about this subject? As far as I can remember the only reason given for its failure was the fact that David used protomatter in the makeup of the matrix. This dangerously unstable substance denounced by every ethical scientist in the federation blah blah blah. Anyway I think that if 24th century knowledge were aplied to this technology it could be improved upon increacing its yield to be able to affect at least one A.U. and even though its failure to do what was intended (make class-M planets) it would still make a great weapon against Species 8472, as it would "overwrite" their complete geneome profile. So in effect whatever cool species abilities they have would be erased and they along with their bioships would be transformed by the genesis effect. Of course they would be destroyed by this effect. So this would be a good weapon/defense for starfleet to use. Since for storytelling purposes we need a dramatic way to stop the incursion. As we know from the show and the game they are impervious to starfleet weapons and technology. But a modified torpedo could cause the genesis effect and kill them.
I don't know, it seems a bit odd that Starfleet would resort to mass genocide of an entire plane of existance over negotiations. Even as a last ditch effort, I don't see Starfleet using the Genesis device against them.
Besides, isn't everything tied to the genesis project destroyed by the time of Voyager?
"I'm pretty sure that replicator technology is based on transporter technology. There is no mention of using any of the technology that was applied to the "Genesis" project."
Well, the actual "science" behind the Genesis Device was never discussed in the movie, but it seems only reasonable that it is itself an outgrowth of transporter technology. Otherwise it just gets into "special lucky magic" technology.
The timing of the replicator's invention is also convenient to this theory - unknown in TOS, and still not in general use in 2293, but common enough that it was considered odd for Maurice and Yvette Picard not to have one in the early 2300's.
Just an opinion, of course - your kilometrage may vary.
"I don't know, it seems a bit odd that Starfleet would resort to mass genocide of an entire plane of existance over negotiations. Even as a last ditch effort, I don't see Starfleet using the Genesis device against them.
Besides, isn't everything tied to the genesis project destroyed by the time of Voyager?"
Well, much of the research would be backed up, I imagine. However, they key to the final Phase III Genesis Experiment, the introduction of protomatter into the equations, would not be generally known - even Carol Marcus apparently did not know. Lieutenant Saavik was told before David Marcus' death, but it is unknown whether she would have passed this information along. Probably she did. The political fallout from the failure of the project, along with the fact that "no reputable scientist" would touch the stuff, would have killed off any further research along those lines, although by the late 2360's some research is being conducted into protomatter. Its use in terrorist weapons is also mentioned.
However, I agree that it's not the type of weapon I can see the Federation using under any circumstances, and especially not to wipe out an entire dimension. Besides, after Janeway's negotiations with "Boothby," it would appear that a certain measure of détente was achieved with Species 8472.
While everything you say is true. The same could have been said at the end of "First Contact" When the Queen of the Borg was killed. Until the writers "brought" them back again, it could have been assumed that the Borg were cripled. Of course we all now know better. I'm simply using Species 8472 the same way. Bringing them back as a "bad guy" to terrify the players. After the threaten the Federation by blowing up half a dozen federation colonies, and with NO other federation weapons that work including Borg enhanced nanoprobe weapons or anyother nifty weapons Starfleet has I think they might resort to whatever they could find to defend and stop the incursion. Unless you think the federation doesn't mind being wiped out! I on the other hand think that after negotiations fail and of course they fail as this will heighten the tension of the adventure as all the players efforts seem to fail this is all being done for dramtic storyteling. Besides the point of the adventure is involve the Dyson sphere as a place to hide from the "unstoppable" enemy that is Species 8472. All of this will be resolved at the adventures climax. Besides the player's will find a way to make peace with Speices 8472:p
For a good take on Genesis I suggest you read the Genesis Wave trilogy by John Vornholt.
Book one: Excellent
Book two: Good
Book three: Passable.
Normally I can't stand John Vornholt novels (how would the Voyager EMH put it? Rather lowbrow). But this story isn't too bad.
Overall the story does have a good take on what happened to Genesis (it was covered up after the Genesis Incident) by order of the Federation Council.
The story is a little contradictory after this point as apparantly the Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons, Tholians, Breen and Gorn all signed the Genesis Non-Proliferation Treaty preventing them from developing a Genesis Weapon (although the Klingons were believed to have been in breach of the treaty as the explosion of Praxis was primarily thought to have been the result of a problem at the Genesis labs there). But by signing this treaty all the other races in the Quadrant know what Genesis is so why would Federation then bury it's research.
Anyway. Genesis information was kept by Starfleet Intelligence (but of course) and it was review from time to time but the possibility of the Genesis technology falling into the hands of the Borg or the Dominion was too high meant that nothing was ever done with it. Dr Carol Marcus was kept in protective custody on Pacifica ever since the incident (and was still there as of mid-2375). The Genesis Cave in the Regula 1 asteroid is still thriving as of 2375 as well.
Anyway the books are worth a look and the Genesis Re-evaluation Report in Chapter 12 is fantastic (and not written by the author either).
Buck, one small suggestion - give the players a few minor successes because if everything fails they may well become frustrated, feel useless and railroaded. That may end up leading them to lose interest in the game.
Regards,
CKV.
Not to fear, they only fail in the first act, as does much of the fleet. Sort of a "Best of Both Worlds", or "First Contact" thing. Then when the reality of the situation sets in the characters realize that the Dyson Sphere was actually built buy someone from the future for a future battle but in the confusion for some reason it gets sent to the wrong time frame. When the PC's figure this out (don't worry I've provided clues for them) they can solve the problem and make nice with the hostile species 8472.