Denethor write-up (redone)

I noticed that my old write-up of Denethor was somewhat lacking in many respects, so I re-wrote him from the ground up. Comments welcomed! (by the way, I think I'm going to take a little break for a while from these NPCs, whew, hehe)

Denethor

"I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool! Doest thou think that the eyes of the White Tower are blind?" - Denethor

Race: Man (Dûnedain)
Racial Abilities: Adaptable, Dominion of Man, Skilled

Attributes: Bearing 14 (+4)*, Nimbleness 7 (+0), Perception 10 (+2), Strength 8 (+1), Vitality 8 (+1), Wits 10 (+2)*
Reactions: Stamina +0, Swiftness +1, Willpower +8*, Wisdom +5

Orders: Captain, loremaster, noble (inactive)
Order Abilities: Air of Command, Ancient Scripts, Courtier, Deference, Domain, Expertise, Noble Mien, Scroll Hoard 3, Secretive, Tactics
Spells: Reading the Heart (ability)
Advancements: 40

Skills: Appraise +3, Armed Combat: Blades (Longsword) +8, Climb +1, Conceal +3, Debate (Parley) +8, Games +3, Healing +3, Inquire (Interrogation) +10, Insight +10, Inspire +6, Intimidate (Majesty) +8, Language: Quenya +4, Language: Sindarin +4, Language: Westron +4, Lore: History (Gondor) +8, Lore: Race (Men) +5, Lore: Realm (Gondor) +5, Observe (Spot) +8, Persuade (Oratory) +6, Ranged Combat: Bows (Longbow) +1, Ride (Horse) +6, Run +1, Search +3, Siegecraft +8, Stonecraft +2, Weather-sense +2

Edges: Ally (Prince Imrahil), Command 4 (the Forces of Gondor), Eloquent, Fair, Friends (Minas Tirith), Hoard 5 (Minas Tirith), Indomitable, Rank 4 (Steward of Gondor), Stern, Strong-willed, Wary, Wise
Flaws: Arrogant, Craven, Dark Secret (Palantir), Duty (to Gondor), Fey, Hatred (Gandalf), Proud, Reckless, Slow Recovery, Stiff-necked, Weak

Health: 10
Courage: 4
Renown: 25

*: Favoured attributes or reaction

Last Ruling Steward of Gondor, Denethor held a long dislike for Gandalf, and it may have hindered him. Upon Denethor's hearing of Boromir's death, he fell into a deep depression, and his last days were blackened. Even though the swearing in of Pippin as a Swordthain of Gondor cheered him some, it was not enough to save him. Denethor ordered his own execution, after hearing of Faramir's illness after his encounter with a Nazgul. Denethor had intended to burn both himself and Faramir in the pyre, but Faramir was saved by Pippin, Gandalf, and Beregond. It is supposed that the vision that Denethor saw in the Palantir also contributed to his eventual suicide.

He has been described as 'an old man with white hair and a long, curved nose'. Denethor II lived from TA 2935 to TA 3019, and was the son of Ecthelion II whom Aragorn fought for under the alias of Thorongil.

Denethor Step-by-step Creation

Step 1: Concept

Denethor was a powerful warrior; alike to Aragorn (disguised as Thorongil) as almost to be akin with him. Yet always he was placed second in the minds of men. He was proud and stern, and held the Stewardship of Gondor with a powerful hand and mind. In the end his will failed him, wasted by Sauron through his use of the Palantir of Anor.

Step 2: Primary Attributes

Pick Method; Bearing 10, Nimbleness 4, Perception 9, Strength 7, Vitality 7, Wits 5; 1 to Nimbleness, 2 to Strength, 2 to Vitality, 3 to Wits.

Step 3: Race

Man; Dunedain; Bearing and Wits are both boosted by 1; Man of Minas Tirith package: Armed Combat +1, Climb +1, Lore +1, Persuade +1, Ranged Combat +1, Run +1; Skilled racial ability adds 2 to Persuade; Language: Quenya +4, Language: Sindarin +3, Language: Westron +4, Lore: History (Gondor) +4, Lore: Race (Men) +5, Lore: Realm (Gondor) +4

Step 4: Order

Noble; Bearing, Wits, and Willpower are favoured; Lord of Gondor package: Armed Combat +3, Debate +2, Inspire +2, Intimidate +2, Language: Sindarin +1, Lore: History (Gondor) +1, Observe +1, Persuade +1, Ride +2; Debate +1, Inspire +2, Observe +2; Rank edge; Deference order ability; takes the Flaws Arrogant, Duty, Proud, and Reckless, and takes the Edges Hoard 3 and Stern in recompense.

Step 5: Free Picks

Debate +2, Inquire +2, Ride +1.

Step 6: Record Final Attributes and Modifiers

Old Age adds 1 to Bearing, Perception, Wits, and Wisdom but subtracts 1 from Nimbleness, Strength, Vitality, Stamina, and Swiftness; Adaptable adds 2 to Willpower; Dominion of Man adds 1 to Courage; final attributes and reactions are Bearing 12, Nimbleness 4, Perception 10, Strength 8, Vitality 8, Wits 10, Stamina +0, Swiftness +1, Willpower +5, Wisdom +3, Defense 10, Health 9, Courage 4, Renown 25.

Step 7: Finishing Touches

As Steward of Gondor, Denethor has access to anything Minas Tirith holds.

Step 8: Advancements

Courtier, Inquire +2
Domain, Inspire +2
Noble Mien, Inquire +2
Health +1
Bearing +1, Armed Combat +1
Bearing +1, Armed Combat +1
Nimbleness +1
Nimbleness +1
Nimbleness +1
Willpower +1, Wisdom +1
Willpower +1, Wisdom +1
Willpower +1, Eloquent, Armed Combat +1
Command, Rank, Armed Combat +1
Command, Rank, Debate +1
Command, Rank, Debate +1
Command, Ally, Debate +1
Fey, Inquire +2, Intimidate +2, Observe +2
Hatred, Inquire +2, Intimidate +2, Lore +1, Observe +1
Slow Recovery, Conceal +1, Lore +2, Persuade +2
Weak, Conceal +2, Ride +2
Loremaster
Dark Secret, Appraise +2, Intimidate +2, Observe +2
Craven, Hoard, Indomitable, Insight +1, Weather-sense +1
Stiff-necked, Hoard, Strong-willed, Appraise +1, Insight +1
Ancient Scripts, Insight +2
Expertise, Insight +2
Scroll Hoard, Insight +2
Scroll Hoard, Wise
Scroll Hoard, Wary
Secretive, Healing +2
Captain
Games +2, Healing +1, Siegecraft +2
Games +1, Search +1, Siegecraft +2
Ride +1, Search +1, Siegecraft +2
Air of Command, Siegecraft +2
Tactics, Search +1
Fair, Stonecraft +1, Weather-sense +1
Friends, Stonecraft +1, Weather-sense +1
Reading the Heart (as a magical abilitiy; begun)
Reading the Heart (as a magical abilitiy; finished)

Denethor looks good, Ben, but I really wanted to post to thank you for all your NPCs and especially for your excellent and meticulous Step-by-Step accounting. I think its important to include such a process because it allows Narrators to easily make a tweak or two while maintaining the Advancement count. And I think Advancement reporting is necessary (and fun) to gauge the overall "strength" of characters relative to each other.

Decipher obviously didn't go through the same painstaking process for the characters in the FELLOWSHIP sourcebook. When I started adding up all the picks for Legolas, for example, turns out he's really closer to a 45 Advancement character, though he's listed as having only 23. Even if Decipher was more efficient than me in their accounting, there's no way they can close such a huge gap. This was a major disappointment. So now I have to basically ignore the Advancements given for all characters in that book, since they're all suspect as being essentially arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

Thanks for showing D how to do this right! I mean, if you're gonna have Advancements and character creation rules, shouldn't all characters abide by them? For me, the answer is a resounding "yes"!

Well done, once again. It's telling that Decipher gets shown up by such a young newbie, who's not even on the payroll.

Keep it up!

T.

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Originally posted by Taliesin
When I started adding up all the picks for Legolas, for example, turns out he's really closer to a 45 Advancement character, though he's listed as having only 23.

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Erm...how did you build him? I messed with Legolas a while back and recreated him right out of the FOTR book, and I think I was either right on 23 advancements or under.

Have to see if I can dig up my notes.

A couple things on your log:

>Courtier,
>Domain,
>Noble Mien,

All three of these are order abilities, and only cost 3 advancement picks each. You have 6 advancement picks to play with here.

>Craven, Inquire +2, Inspire +2
>Games +1, Search +1, Siegecraft +2
>Ride +1, Search +1, Siegecraft +2
>Tactics, Search +1
>Fair, Stonecraft +1, Weather-sense +1
>Friends, Stonecraft +1, Weather-sense +1

These don't add up. I think you're off one advancement pick each.

>Reading the Heart (as a magical abilitiy; begun)
>Reading the Heart (as a magical abilitiy; finished)

This originally messed me up as well. Making a spell an ability costs 10 spell picks, not advancement picks (p. 171, core book). You'll need to buy Spellcasting three times, because:

a. Spellcasting (Reading the Heart (no incantations)) costs 3 spell picks (2 spell picks left over)

b. Spellcasting (Reading the Heart (no gestures)) costs 3 spell picks (2 spell picks left over)

c. Spellcasting (Reading the Heart (ability)) costs 4 spell picks (1 spell pick left over)


Hope that helps. Denethor looks good.

:)

Quick reply, have to go, just wanted to say a couple things...

Thanks for the encouragement Taliesin!

Thanks for the proofreading Ineti! I'll have to figure out how I wrote that wrong, looks like I can fix it without too much trouble.

About the Reading the Heart magic ability though... I think I did that right actually. :D Take a look at the bottom of the middle column of page 171:

"Since people like Beorn - who aren't spellcasters but do have magic abilities - exist in Middle-earth, the Narrator can allow non-spellcasting characters to acquire magic abilities as well. Typically this costs 10 advancement picks (two whole advancements worth), but the Narrator can vary the cost depending upon the usefulness and power of the desired ability."

So I think I did it right... but I definitely messed up on a bit of the step-by-step part and will redo that. :)

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So I think I did it right... but I definitely messed up on a bit of the step-by-step part and will redo that. :) [/B]

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Gotcha. Two different ways of doing it. :) Weesa both right! :D

Okay, just edited both the write-up and the step-by-step, and fixed the things you said were wrong Ineti. He's actually 40 advancements, not 37... I think the thing that was confusing me was non-order skills, and that was also confusing you.

Conceal, Search, and Stonecraft all are non-order skills, and thus cost 2 picks to get one rank in each. Thus, I think I calculated him as 37 advancements somehow, and also a couple of the advancements that you said weren't calculated right actually were (though some were still messed up and I think I fixed them).

I really don't blame Decipher all that much for not going step-by-step on their characters... at 40 advancements, the calculations are tough! :D

Thanks for the criticism and compliments, guys!

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Originally posted by Ineti
Erm...how did you build him? I messed with Legolas a while back and recreated him right out of the FOTR book, and I think I was either right on 23 advancements or under.

Have to see if I can dig up my notes.

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No way, man. He was waaaay over 23 when I did the math. Since we can't account for random ATT rolls at character creation, the only real fair way to calculate Advancements, IMO, is using the Pick method of character creation and then paying for any additional increases beyond the 8 free points allotted. But even if one assumes fantastic rolls for ATTS and take these out of the equation, he still comes up with way more than 23.

I think I even have a Step-by-Step ala KoR (ahem, Ben) that proves this out. I drove the total up to allow Legolas to be a ranger (small "r"), but even without my augmentation he was in the 40's, IIRC. Maybe I can dig that up and post.

T.

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Originally posted by ben hur
I really don't blame Decipher all that much for not going step-by-step on their characters... at 40 advancements, the calculations are tough! :D

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Yeah, they are, but that's no excuse for not going through the steps. I do mine with a spreadsheet, and it's not that hard. And I have a permanent digital record that I can refer to and correct as I discover blunders or oversights.

Decipher owes it to us to take the NPCs through the proper calculations if they're going to hold up the characters up as benchmarks. Otherwise, publish them without Advancements, saying NPC's don't really need to report them.

My two cents.

T.

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Originally posted by Taliesin
No way, man. He was waaaay over 23 when I did the math. Since we can't account for random ATT rolls at character creation, the only real fair way to calculate Advancements, IMO, is using the Pick method of character creation

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I believe Doug or Jeff mentioned either here or on the Decipher boards that the attributes were arbitrarily picked for the NPCs. I don't think it's fair to cut them down to using the pick method and going from there. That would really juke the results.

I'll take Legolas and write him up in a bit and see what happens.

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Originally posted by Taliesin
Yeah, they are, but that's no excuse for not going through the steps. I do mine with a spreadsheet, and it's not that hard. And I have a permanent digital record that I can refer to and correct as I discover blunders or oversights.

Decipher owes it to us to take the NPCs through the proper calculations if they're going to hold up the characters up as benchmarks. Otherwise, publish them without Advancements, saying NPC's don't really need to report them.

My two cents.

T.

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It was a joke. ;) Although I definitely would expect them to make the NPCs according to the Coda rules, and that would help a lot, I will freely admit that this can be a pain in the rear when you are dealing with an incredible amount of advancements! :D

I think all in all it looks good.
I do have a couple of remarks however:

About Denether's Hoard 5, (and Hoard in general actually) iirc that is 100.000-500.000 sp.
The FotR scourcebook gives Isildur Hoard 10: 10.000.000.000 - 50.000.000.000 sp. I am not sure if that's for Arnor and Gondor, but that wouldn't matter that much, for the difference is still enormous.

Now coming to my point about Hoard in general, it has a logarithmic scale.
Someone with Hoard 2 (100-500 sp) can be much more than twice as rich as someone with Hoard 1 (10-50 sp), in the extreme case it is 500/10 = 50 times as much.
So if one gives a king Hoard 5 (100.000 - 500.000 sp) for his entire land, he can have up to 5 liege-men who also have Hoard 5 or up to 50 liege-men who have Hoard 4!

Anyway, back to Denethor, I would give some more Allies, just as Greg or Jason(?) did with Imrahil, styling them "The lords of Gondor".

And I think you made him physically too weak. He used to be a strong warrior, a Rival (you might want to include this too?) of Thorondir. But because of his age (did you use the aging rules for Men as well?) and his rank (the place of the steward is not in the front ranks as he says himself) he didn't fight himself, but as he says himself as well he has worn his armor and sword (hidden under his robes) for days, iirc even sleeping in it.

Ofcourse this is meant as consructive criticism and reflects my personal opinion.
Hope it helps!

PS. A note to the administrators, I noticed we have NPC write-ups on both Tomes of the Wise and the Council of Elrond board. Would it be possible to use one forum for this, further increasing the (already excellent :D ) ease of use of this board?

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Originally posted by Meneltin
Anyway, back to Denethor, I would give some more Allies, just as Greg or Jason(?) did with Imrahil, styling them "The lords of Gondor".

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It was Greg's excellent work.

Interesting points about Hoard... but does that mean you want me to change it? Sorry, I just didn't understand you entirely. :)

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Originally posted by Meneltin
Anyway, back to Denethor, I would give some more Allies, just as Greg or Jason(?) did with Imrahil, styling them "The lords of Gondor".

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Good idea! Do you think it should be perhaps Ally 9?

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Originally posted by Meneltin And I think you made him physically too weak. He used to be a strong warrior, a Rival (you might want to include this too?) of Thorondir. But because of his age (did you use the aging rules for Men as well?) and his rank (the place of the steward is not in the front ranks as he says himself) he didn't fight himself, but as he says himself as well he has worn his armor and sword (hidden under his robes) for days, iirc even sleeping in it.[/B]

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Yes, I used Aging rules; Thorondor probably shouldn't be a Rival, seeing as the RotK appendix explicitly states that it was all in his head and Aragorn wasn't trying to usurp the throne or anything; but I think Hatred (Thorondor) is in order.

About being too weak... I'm kind of torn over this. I have no idea where the line is between "Denethor, Warrior of Gondor with the Blood of Numenor in his veins" and "Denethor, Feeble Old Man in his Last Days". :D So if you and everyone else could tell me how strong they think he should be that'd be great! :)

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Originally posted by Meneltin Ofcourse this is meant as consructive criticism and reflects my personal opinion.
Hope it helps![/B]

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Yes, it does help, I appreciate it!

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Originally posted by Meneltin PS. A note to the administrators, I noticed we have NPC write-ups on both Tomes of the Wise and the Council of Elrond board. Would it be possible to use one forum for this, further increasing the (already excellent :D ) ease of use of this board? [/B]

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That would be definitely neat. :cool:

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Originally posted by Ineti
I believe Doug or Jeff mentioned either here or on the Decipher boards that the attributes were arbitrarily picked for the NPCs. I don't think it's fair to cut them down to using the pick method and going from there.

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Why on earth not? The whole concept of Advancements as a way to compare the relative power of characters completely breaks down if you don't start with a level playing field. You may as well not even track Advancements if you include randomly generated stats as part of the equation.

To use an extreme example, a character with all 12 ATTs and 23 Advancements is waaaay more powerful than a character with all 7 ATTs and 23 Advancements. We're not talking about a little difference here, it's a huge difference by a magnitude of 200% or more.

Players and Narrators like to compare the characters in the their chronicle to the "official" versions of the heroes (and villains) from the books and movies. The only possible way to make this an "apples to apples" comparison is to use the pick method of character creation for all characters. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels. Heck, I wouldn't even consult the official stats or bother to keep track of my own players' Advancemets if randomly rolled stats are figured in. I mean, I'd still track their XP, so that they were able to make a pick every 1000 pts or whatever, but, really, why track the number of cumulative Advancements? Without a common standard they're ultimately arbitrary and meaningless.

T.

I don't see it the way you do. Comparing a LOTR PC to Legolas or Aragorn is like comparing a Star Wars PC to Luke Skywalker or Han Solo. IMO, it shouldn't be done. I know players do it, but it's generally futile, IMO. Taking an iconic character from a novel or movie and trying to enumerate them stat-wise seems silly to me.

In essence, you're right in that the write-ups for the key characters can be considered meaningless--how many narrators are going to have Aragorn or Legolas drop in on their parties and do anything that would require that NPC to roll stuff? I mean, if I had Aragorn travel with my party, he'd whip up on everything and completely show up the PCs if I handled it poorly. I won't do that.

Your mileage clearly varies on this issue. :)

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Originally posted by Ineti
I don't see it the way you do. Comparing a LOTR PC to Legolas or Aragorn is like comparing a Star Wars PC to Luke Skywalker or Han Solo. IMO, it shouldn't be done. I know players do it, but it's generally futile, IMO. Taking an iconic character from a novel or movie and trying to enumerate them stat-wise seems silly to me.

In essence, you're right in that the write-ups for the key characters can be considered meaningless--how many narrators are going to have Aragorn or Legolas drop in on their parties and do anything that would require that NPC to roll stuff? I mean, if I had Aragorn travel with my party, he'd whip up on everything and completely show up the PCs if I handled it poorly. I won't do that.

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That may well be, but my group is currently traveling with Legolas to the Council of Elrond! In fact, they will help him make the perilous journey intact. Surely you don't think he crossed the Misty Mountains all by his lonesome? So what's a poor Narrator to do? I need his stats, and all of 'em. I've had other "named" NPCs make appearances in my chronicle as well, including Thranduil, Grimbeorn, Gollum, and soon, the entire Council of Elrond. Now admittedly, I won't need every single stat for every single character--not by a longshot--but I never know just which skills may be called upon and which won't, so the more complete picture I have of them the better. And if Decipher didn't intend for players to interact with the named characters, why produce the FELLOWSHIP sourcebook? Clearly, those who wish to actively include the heroes of Middle-earth in their chronicles have been encouraged by the product line.

As for comparing NPC's to named characters, I think its a useful way to gauge the relative strenth of a characters. For example, if I'm developing a villain for my chronicle and I know that Saruman is undoubtedly one of the most powerful wizards in the world, and that he has 65 Advancements, I know to make my villain no more than, say 45 Advancements. I don't think that's silly or futile. In fact, it's a very useful tool to have, IMO, and it seems to be the whole raison d'etre for Advancements in the first place.

From a player's standpoint, published Advancements provide a sense of perspective on their own ability and a worthy goal to shoot for. "Legolas has 47 advancements and I have 8. I've got a lot of work to do!" It can become a real, tangible goal in a game often dominated by abstractions.

Although we can debate whether it should be done, Decipher has sort of made it a moot point by providing published stats including Advancements which are intended to serve as meaningful benchmarks. That genie's out of the bottle. I'm just saying if they're going to provide 'em at all, they should remove the randomness and account for everything.

Finally, I have to ask: If you think its silly to enumerate stats for iconic characters from the novels or movies stat-wise, then why did you work so hard to provide us with the lovely version of Radagast?


T.

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Originally posted by Taliesin
why did you work so hard to provide us with the lovely version of Radagast?

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Simple. Providing something people wanted to see. I had read several posts on these and the Decipher boards asking about Radagast stats, and at the time, I had the time to thrown him together. I think the character is interesting, even though we don't see much of him, so I made up stats for him. :)

I don't think I even bothered with an advancement log for him. If I had to go back and compare his stats to the number of advancements I gave him, it would probably be off. I think he came out pretty well, but I know it's only my own interpretation.

*shrug*