Thranduil, for your consideration...

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06-14-2003, 09:58 PM
celebril

Thranduil, for your consideration...

Over on the other board, someone asked anyone who had done a write-up for Thranduil to post it. I posted mine, which I had done several weeks ago.
I figured that I may as well post it over here , too, since everyone is always eager to see others' work. Besides, I'm curious to see what all you other Tolkienites think of him. I always enjoy reading the insightful discussions on the board, so feel free to comment , criticize, etc...
I've copied and pasted my whole post from the other board, since I had to preface my write-up with a few comments.

I do need to say a few thing, first. On the final copy I kept, I unfortunately didn't note the number of advancements. It was many. For simplicity, I just started the Attributes where they were at, but beyond that there was a lot of work. Sorry I can't give specific number.=(
Also, I adjusted the Elven Racial Abilities to include the Edges Keen-Eared, Night-Eyed, and Woodcrafty. (The first two can be seen by my expanding the Elven Sense to Elven Senses) If you don't like this, don't include them in your game. It's just a house rule type adjustment I'd made to the game.
I also use the flaw Distrustful, which is a flaw I added to the game to reflect the Social skill penalties that might come into play when a Dwarf and Elf with mutual mistrust meet or must treat with each other (or a Dunlending and man of Rohan, whatever works =)).
Lastly, some of the skills I gave Thranduil are definitely open to debate. I just tried to take into consideration his entire background, from his time in Doriath through his reign in Mirkwood into the 4th Age.
Also, you'll notice I don't put the Abilities in Alphabetical order. I got in the habit of putting the ORDERS in alphabetical order (basic, then advanced) and from there each Order's abilities are in alphabetical order.
OK, guess if you are still with me, here's Thranduil:

Race: Elf(Sinda)
Age: Approx. 10,000 yrs.
Gender: male
Size: medium
Height: 6'3"
Weight: 190 lbs
Skin: Fair
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Blonde
Home: Woodland Realm of Mirkwood
Lineage: Of the House of Thingol Greycloak

ATTRIBUTES: Brg*12(+3), Nim 12(+3), Per 14(+4), Str 9(+1), Vit 12(+3), Wit*12(+3)
REACTIONS: Stamina +4, Swiftness +4, Willpower +6, Wisdom* +6

RACIAL ABILITIES: The Art, Beast Skill, Comfort, Elven Form, Elven Senses, Elven Sleep, Farsightedness, Ghost Scorn, Lightfootedness, Swift Healing, Woodcrafty

ORDERS: Loremaster, Magician, Noble, Warrior

ORDER ABILITIES: Expertise(Elven History), Spellcasting 46, Dwimmer Crafty(Exclusion, Shutting Spell), Sanctum(Woodland Realm), Sanctum Power, Deference, Domain(Woodland Realm), Battle Hardened

SPELLS: Animal Messenger, Beast Speech(ability), Beast Summoning, Display Power(ability), Exclusion, Finding and Returning, Fog Raising, Fog Weaving, Healing Spell, Misdirection, Power of the Land, Resist Fear, Shutting Spell, Veil(ability)
Note: Thranduil need not gesture or incant for any spell that he does not have as an ability, save those spells that require speech.

SKILLS: Appraise(Gems,Gold,Silver), Armed Combat:Blades(Longsword)+6, Armed Combat:Polearms(Spears)+4, Climb +3, Conceal(Hide Treasure)+3, Debate(Parley)+6, Healing(Herbal Remedies)+6, Inquire(Interrogate)+2, Insight +6, Inspire +5, Intimidate(Majesty)+6, Language:Quenya +4, Language:Silvan+4, Language:Sindarin+8, Language:Westron+4, Lore:History(Elves)+8, Lore:Race(Elves), Lore:Other(Nandor)+4, Observe(Spot)+6, Perform:Sing+6, Perform:Tell Stories+7, Persuade(Oratory)+5, Ranged Combat:Bows(shortbow)+8, Ride(Horses)+3, Run +6, Sea Craft(Boating, Sailing)+3, Search +3, Siegecraft(Defence)+3, Stealth(Hide)+6, Survival(Forests)+4, Swim +3, Track(Orcs)+2, Weather Sense +3

EDGES: Allies(Celeborn & Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, the Wise), Command 4(the Elves of Woodland Realm), Eloquent, Fair, Friends(King Under the Mountain, King of Dale), Hoard 5(all the treasures of Woodland Realm), Honour's Insight, Incorruptible, Keen-Eared, Keen-Eyed, Night-Eyed, Quickdraw, Rank 4(King of the Woodland Realm), Stern, Swift Recovery, Wary, Woodcrafty

FLAWS: Arrogant, Distrustful(Dwarves, Strangers in Mirkwood), Enemies(Orcs and Fell Beasts that daily threaten his realm), Grasping, Proud

GEAR: All the treasures of the Woodland Realm of Mirkwood

HEALTH:13 DEFENCE:13 RENOWN:30(+5) COURAGE:5

Comments are welcome. I'm sure not everyone will agree with my version, but it's worked pretty well for me. I know I've made changes (usually slight) to all of Decipher's character outlines so far, so I don't think we'll ever all be satisfied with a single version of a character.
Hope this is helpful, though. =)
06-14-2003, 10:42 PM
Phantom

You have Woodcrafty listed twice, once for Racial Abilites and then under edges.

Other then that...SWEET.
06-14-2003, 11:18 PM
celebril

Yeah, that was intentional

Kind of like the Fair edge overlapping with Elven Form, and the Keen-Eyed edge also being addressed in the racial abilities. I just prefer to see it listed with the rest of the edges.
I'm glad you like the write-up.
06-14-2003, 11:20 PM
celebril

I also noticed something I missed

I didn't mark Wisdom with an asterisk, as it is his favoured Reaction.
06-16-2003, 09:29 AM
Ineti

Looks pretty good, though I think I'd give him higher attributes and many more spells.

And I think Radagast would be an ally of his, possibly moreso than Gandalf. Rhosgobel is on the borders of Mirkwood, and I'm sure Radagast would have spent some time with Thranduil.

Good work.
06-16-2003, 01:15 PM
Phantom

Stupid question, I know. But, what do you figure are his number of advances?
06-16-2003, 02:17 PM
Elendur

Great job!! I think overall its a good peice of work (though his stats might be kinda high).
Just a note Thranduil's father is Orpher, he became king when Orpher died during the last alliance. Also, I would think since he is kin of Thingol and a Sindar his hair would be grey.

PS: I like how he is a spellcaster, it is my opinion that all extremely high level elves (Elrond, Glorfindal, Gil-Galad, Etc.) should be able to cast the types of spells you have listed on Tranduil.
Again, gj, I will use this in my next campaign
06-16-2003, 09:34 PM
celebril

Thanks for your comments, guys.

I'm gonna try to address all three of your posts here, but I may mix up who posted what.
Ineti, I agree Radagast would probably be an ally of Thranduil. I put Gandalf because we know that those two had dealings, for example with Gollum's confinement. I did the ultimate blanket statement by saying Allies( so and so, so and so, and the Wise). That way, no one suitable, like the Brown Wizard, is left out. I too wasn't sure at first how high to go with the Attributes. I wouldn't honestly put Thranduil anywhere near Elrond. His brief appearance in the Hobbit showed him to be a bit grasping, perhaps, and a little less wise for sure than Elrond. I did consider, though, that the character wasn't as fully developed in the Hobbit as he may have been in later works, if Tolkien had ever written such. In the end, I think if anything, I'd only raise his Wits, and maybe Bearing, too (but not much).=) I really enjoyed the treatment he received in the Chronicle of Fire and Ice that Jason plays in--he was very well done.
Phantom, I didn't make note of it on my final copy, and my first couple drafts were thrown out. I think I'll go back and recount, because I've done too many characters lately to even give you a good guess.
Elendur, Thranduil is actually said to have golden hair in the Hobbit (which I make blonde, since I tend to draw a distinction in my characters between the two. The Vanyar and the House of Finarphin were known for their golden hair. I like to think it was a little more than the common blonde hair you might see on other Elves). Otherwise, I think the silver would have been cool, since he was of Elu Thingol's house. I'm glad you like it enough to use it. You may like to know then that I cleaned up the Lore skills a bit. Instead of Lore:Other(Nandor), it should definitely be Lore:Group(Nandor).
06-16-2003, 09:42 PM
Phantom

Re: Thanks for your comments, guys.

Quote:

Originally posted by celebril
I'm Phantom, I didn't make note of it on my final copy, and my first couple drafts were thrown out. I think I'll go back and recount, because I've done too many characters lately to even give you a good guess.

Don't worry. If you have the info...fine I would be interested. But, for the most part it was a rhetorical question. It is just I think the CODA advance system falls kind of flat for making these high level type characters. Like I'm thinking of writing up Praetor Neral...how many advances should the leader of the RSE have?:eek: And factor in the fact he is 140+ years old. Yikes.
06-17-2003, 06:19 AM
Ineti

Re: Re: Thanks for your comments, guys.

Quote:

Originally posted by Phantom
It is just I think the CODA advance system falls kind of flat for making these high level type characters.

IMO, characters this high of stature don't need stats. :) How often will Thranduil be active in a chronicle or adventure? How likely is it that Thranduil will go on an adventure with a group? In my games, I probably would only use Thranduil as an occasional-use NPC, one that would direct the PCs as needed, but wouldn't need stats as such.

YMMV
06-17-2003, 11:27 AM
Phantom

With this character I agree, 10 000 years, his power would be beyond the game. But, what I meant when you make a higher level (or slightly older one) character how many advances do you give. Elves particularly are a problem to the system.
06-17-2003, 11:59 AM
Manveru

I don't think there's an easy answer

There's certainly no formula. It's a 'best judgement' call.

There's nothing in the character generation rules to really deal with this. High level/long lived/experienced Elven characters could theoritically have simply outrageous number of advancements. After all, if you've been bumming around Middle Earth since the First Age (or before!), why wouldn't you have a lot of advancements?

Sure, there's the "haven't really got out much in the last couple millenia" concept, that many Elves just don't bother to advance themselves with the same ambition as their shorter lived neighbors, yet there have been quite a number of rather ambitious Elven characters (i.e. the House of Feanor, Noldor of Eregion, etc.), but I guess they're all dead aren't they? ;-) Except for Maglor...

Another concept that CODA does not represent from the text is the whole concept of "Fading" in Middle Earth. This could certainly explain why every Elf in ME isn't a 100 advancement hero.

To your question though, I don't have time to plot out 10 to 80 advancements for every Elven NPC. I have three tiers: Walk-On NPCs (only basic/most important stats pregenerated, if that, everything else is improvised as needed), minor Supporting Cast (appear perhaps somewhat frequently, but not really important people so I flush things out a little more and assign what I think are appropriate values, but I don't necessarily do all the math, because it serves very little purpose in game terms to spend time doing this versus other production activities I could be spending time to support the game), and Major Supporting Cast (NPC's that are somewhat central to a plot; I'll consider doing the advancement math for these, but not always, usually only if it's a major adversary that the PCs will face off against, in some fashion, a lot).

What's more important than stats, imho, for NPC's is the concept. If you have a solid concept, than you can flush out stats on the fly, usually. As such, before I even consider whether or not I need to stat out an NPC (or to what degree), I'll just come up with a bunch of words or phrases that sum them up. If I can work off of those, I'm good to go. If not, I do the math.

HTH,

Manveru

I just use the advancements given by Decipher to the Elven characters from the books as a guide, and then tweak to taste.
06-17-2003, 12:41 PM
ben hur

Hey, nice to see you Manveru! Any work going on at S & K? With all the NPCs being posted lately, you could get some nice stuff... if they are to your liking. ;)

Anything I post is yours for the using ('you have my word processor'). :)
06-17-2003, 12:43 PM
Ineti

Quote:

Originally posted by Phantom
Elves particularly are a problem to the system.

Why would older Elves be any more of a problem than other species? Just slap on the advancements till the character has what you want, or don't bother with the advancement total and eyeball the stats, skills, spells, etc. :)
06-17-2003, 12:51 PM
Phantom

Quote:

Originally posted by Ineti
Why would older Elves be any more of a problem than other species? Just slap on the advancements till the character has what you want, or don't bother with the advancement total and eyeball the stats, skills, spells, etc. :)

Two words...Play balance.

How do you handle a player that comes to you with a really good background for a 500-1000 year old Elf? All other characters (assume human) start with 0 advances, what of the elf? You can assume a bit of non activity in his life, but he sure as hell is going to be much more experienced then his more mundane comrades. How do you justify giving one player more advances then the others. You would have to have a very understanding group...Or one made up entirely of Elven characters.
06-17-2003, 01:01 PM
Ineti

The LOTR RPG specifically threw game balance out the window when it came to Elves, which IMO is a good thing. That's why they have so many attribute mods and extra edges.

IMO, time means different things to Men and Elves. A Man might fritter the first 15 years of his life before deciding what to do. An Elf could spend 300 years in the forest smelling the flowers and singing about them, comparatively.

It's all subjective.

Just because one is immortal doesn't mean they have to be the most experienced. :)
06-17-2003, 01:03 PM
Jason Durall

Quote:

Originally posted by Phantom
Two words...Play balance.

How do you handle a player that comes to you with a really good background for a 500-1000 year old Elf? All other characters (assume human) start with 0 advances, what of the elf? You can assume a bit of non activity in his life, but he sure as hell is going to be much more experienced then his more mundane comrades. How do you justify giving one player more advances then the others. You would have to have a very understanding group...Or one made up entirely of Elven characters.

Hmmm... there's a big difference between players and NPCs, though.

This thread has been about high level NPCs, mostly, which are entirely different from starting characters. As a GM (I haven't narrated LotR yet), I have no problem with NPCs of any level, and their amount of detail varies by the amount of attention they get, and whether or not their success or failure is relevant to the story.

Personally, I enjoy breaking away from the notion of play balance. I've had freeform games where character concept is done first, and let people choose anyone between young children to highly-skilled warriors, with no notion of balance.

I think that the designers of this game should be commended on their steps away from balance - and if anything, I'd have probably gone further, such as giving starting Elf characters a dozen advancements or so.

For example, create three beginning characters, all human, all using the point attribution system for attributes. Create one of them as a warrior, one as a craftsman, and one as a mariner.

Are they all balanced? Do they contribute equally to the game?

Now give each of them 10 advancements. Are they still balanced?
06-17-2003, 01:21 PM
Manveru

KoR/Ben Hur

Quote:

Hey, nice to see you Manveru! Any work going on at S & K? With all the NPCs being posted lately, you could get some nice stuff... if they are to your liking.

No!! :( I'm moving from Boston to Colorado in a little over two weeks, and I'm going nuts!!! I've been spending some time here and there reading up on message boards, that's about all the hobby time I've had lately.

And there's been SCADS of good stuff posted, and some really interesting discussions too, I'm chomping at the bit to get going again (I especially want to post a number of Narrator articles I have ideas for, regarding "Subtle" vs "Flagrant" Magic, Combat, "Game Balance", etc.), but alas ... I'll probably not have any serious time to devote until the end of July ..

Quote:

Anything I post is yours for the using ('you have my word processor').

And you have my best regards! :D I was surprised when you stated that LotR was your first RPG, I think you've been quite prolific, creative and tasteful with your contributions (although Luthien really should have more advancements ;)

I'm going to hopefully get a chance to upload all the latest contributions before I move at the end of the month, and at the least update the Submissions section with a "I'm moving right now, it's hectic, I'll get submissions up when the dust settles" blurb.

Thanks for the hello! Suilad!

Manveru
06-17-2003, 01:50 PM
Phantom

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Durall

I think that the designers of this game should be commended on their steps away from balance - and if anything, I'd have probably gone further, such as giving starting Elf characters a dozen advancements or so.

Actually I thought the discussion was about Thranduil. ;)

And yes I do realize the difference in NPCs and PCs, but the Advance problem factors into both. Though with the NPC you can just fill in what you like. Now, if Dec came out with an idea similar to yours then I wouldn't have a problem. There it would be in ever expensive high gloss and full colour. But, what they have done is establish a rule for most of races and just left it hanging in mid air for the Elves. I have no problem with the balance of characters, look at the Elves to begin with they are way out of balance, as they should be.

My problem is character advancement should follow a certain continuity for all characters.
06-20-2003, 07:11 AM
ben hur

Re: KoR/Ben Hur

Quote:

Originally posted by Manveru
No!! :( I'm moving from Boston to Colorado in a little over two weeks, and I'm going nuts!!! I've been spending some time here and there reading up on message boards, that's about all the hobby time I've had lately.

And there's been SCADS of good stuff posted, and some really interesting discussions too, I'm chomping at the bit to get going again (I especially want to post a number of Narrator articles I have ideas for, regarding "Subtle" vs "Flagrant" Magic, Combat, "Game Balance", etc.), but alas ... I'll probably not have any serious time to devote until the end of July ..

Sounds like some great stuff! Hope you get more time, too, I've been rather busy myself with soccer games every other day (I'm rather smallish-built and the opposing teams are really rough, heh). :)

Quote:

And you have my best regards! :D I was surprised when you stated that LotR was your first RPG, I think you've been quite prolific, creative and tasteful with your contributions (although Luthien really should have more advancements ;)

Thanks! :D It must be because I'm homeschooled. ;) Thanks for the heads-up about Luthien, I thought she should have more advancements too, but I'll have to think about what else I can give her... I'm nearly sure that it will be totally fixed when they show the rules for Legendary stats, I can't wait! :)

Quote:

I'm going to hopefully get a chance to upload all the latest contributions before I move at the end of the month, and at the least update the Submissions section with a "I'm moving right now, it's hectic, I'll get submissions up when the dust settles" blurb.

Thanks for the hello! Suilad!

Manveru

That's great! I can't wait till it's active again. It was like the first fan site I think. It's one of the prettiest sites I've seen too! (almost as nice as macmilitia.com, hehehe) Talk to you later!