Kings and Stewards

I guess this is the right spot for this.

Lately I have been working, once again, on my defunct LotRs game in hope it will live again...If anyone is interested in a forum game let me know. End of shameless plug.;)

Here is a character that would have played a role in said game. probably would have turned into a patron or other leader type to the players.

I welcome comments.

Version 1.5 ;)

Name: Thengel, 16th King of Rohan.
Order: Noble, Captain
Race: Rohirrim
Gender: Male
Age: 48
Height: 5'11
Weight: 164lbs
Hair: Blonde (Greying)
Eyes: Grey
Home: Edoras
Family: Morwen (wife), 3 children (Theoden is second child and only son)
Advancements: 23 (approx.)
Order Abilities: Noble Mien, Domain (Rohan), Courtier, Air of Command, Leadership, Tactics.

Attributes
Bearing*------14------- +4
Nimbleness-- 10--------+2
Perception----11--------+2
Strength*------9--------+1
Vitality---------11--------+2
Wits------------10--------+2

Skills
Armed Combat: Blades (longsword) +8, Debate (Negotiate, Parley) +8, Healing (Treat Wounds) +10, Inquire (Converse) +8, Inspire +12, Intimidate (Majesty) +12, Lang. Atliduk +8, Lang.:
Rohiric +9, Lang.: Adunaic +8, Lang. Westron +10, Lore: Heraldry +9, Lore: History (Gondor) +8, Lore: History (Rohan) +8, Lore: Realm (Gondor) +6, Lore: Realm (Rohan) +8, Observe (Spot) +5, Persuade (Oratory) +11, Ranged Combat: Bows (Short) +6, Ride (Horse) +10, Search +9, Seigecraft (Defense) +12, Survival +5, Track +6, Unarmed Combat +4, Weather-sense +5


Traits:
Honour’s Insight, Night Eyed, Rank 4 (King of Rohan), Command 4 (Riders of Rohan), Warwise, Hoard 5, Eloquent, Wise 2.

Flaw:
Duty (to protect the People of Rohan)

Reactions
Stamina: +2
Swiftness:+2
Willpower*: +4
Wisdom: +4


Defence: 10 [+6] 16 (while in chain w/ plate)
Health: 12

Courage: 6
Renown: 15

He took no wife until late, but in 2943 he wedded Morwen of Lossarnach in Gondor, though she was seventeen years younger. She bore him three children in Gondor, of whom Theoden, the second, was the his only son. When Fengel died the Rohirrim recalled him, and he returned unwillingly. But, proved a good and wise king; though the speech of Gondor was used in hishouse, and not all men thought that good...

It was soon after Thengel’s return that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies.*

* From Appendix A “The Kings of the Mark”, TRotK.

Next Ecthelion II, son of Turgon, 25th Steward of Gondor.

Hello...Is this mike on?

18 people have looked, but had nothing to say? Wow! A first. :D

I'm not like the people at Dec, I can take all reviews good, bad or indifferent.;)

Not too bad. I think you made his attributes much too high, especially for a Middle Man, and his reactions don't match up to his attributes.

He's 48...which is 'Old' for Middle Men. Should you/did you incorporate the modifiers for age to reactions and attributes?

Finally, I'm not that familiar with his character from the books; why are his Quenya and Sindarin skill levels so high? Did he spend significant time with Elves?

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Originally posted by Ineti
1)Not too bad. I think you made his attributes much too high, especially for a Middle Man, and his reactions don't match up to his attributes.

2) He's 48...which is 'Old' for Middle Men. Should you/did you incorporate the modifiers for age to reactions and attributes?

3) Finally, I'm not that familiar with his character from the books; why are his Quenya and Sindarin skill levels so high? Did he spend significant time with Elves?

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1) I arbitrarily assigned the attributes, to the level that I thought a "mythic" type character, like most in Tolkien, would be. Then I applied the Old category mods to it. Once I noticed 2 of his reactions were going to be +1, a little too low for a King who still (in my mind) had to be a warrior, so I added (ie "bought") a level or two (making them finally +2). I did a little tinkering here and there. ;)

2) I did.

3) It was stated in the ref source that he had spent much of his younger years in Gondor, I assume he spent a lot of time in Minas Tirith a center for learning. So, I thought he would be able to pick up a good understanding of Elvish as well. Hmm, perhaps Adunaic or Apysaic (North Haradrim) or other dialect would be appropriate. Thanks, something to think about. ;)

Ok, changed the Sindarin to Adunaic another scholarly language in the world of Men. This is a bit of a snag I find with the Dec. LotRs there are only about 6 languages mentioned, compared to the list of 21 in MERP. I realize MERP is 'unofficial" but couldn't Dec expanded a little in this area?

I still don't know about the attributes. I don't see 17 Brg being too high for a King, or 15 Wits too high for someone his age. The others...I don't think 11-13 are unreasonable.

This is the reason I posted this here. Can we get some more opinions? :)

Bearing 17 is a bit too high... seeing as not only does it break the 12 + Racial modifier limit, but Arwen only has 15 Bearing, so... ;) :D

A good deal of the skills don't seem correct to me...

Armed Combat, Ranged Combat, and Unarmed Combat look fine, he'd be better off with a bit more in them I think, but it's not a problem.

Ride looks maybe correct.

Debate, Inquire, Inspire, Intimidate, Language, Lore, Persuade, Search, Siegecraft, Survival, Track, and Weather-sense all seem a bit on the high side...

Do you think he'd be a Knight as well? I thought all major Rohirrim would be pretty much.

More Courage perhaps?

Looks like an interesting take though, nice try! :cool:

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Originally posted by ben hur
1) Bearing 17 is a bit too high... seeing as not only does it break the 12 + Racial modifier limit, but Arwen only has 15 Bearing, so... ;) :D

A good deal of the skills don't seem correct to me...

Armed Combat, Ranged Combat, and Unarmed Combat look fine, he'd be better off with a bit more in them I think, but it's not a problem.

Ride looks maybe correct.

2) Debate, Inquire, Inspire, Intimidate, Language, Lore, Persuade, Search, Siegecraft, Survival, Track, and Weather-sense all seem a bit on the high side...

3) Do you think he'd be a Knight as well? I thought all major Rohirrim would be pretty much.

4) More Courage perhaps?

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1) I'm officially on record as saying "oooppss." I keep forgetting about that rule. I'll change it after work today. Thanks.

2) Again, as he has spent much of his time in Gondor (with its centers of learning and healing) I figured his level in the "humanities" would be fairly high. In what little that is written about him that I have says that he is " a good and wise king."

3) I thought about the Knight Order, but thought it didn't really bring in a lot to the character (other then adding a bit to his ride score.) And who does a Knight swear fealty to when he becomes King. It just seemed too much to me. I'll take a closer look later today, however.

4) A very good idea. Thanks.

A quick look at him gives me the following comments:

1. Obviously, the Bearing 17 score is ridiculously high. By contrast, the Witch-king has a 16, Saruman a 16, and Shelob a 13.

2. The rest of his attributes seem very high as well. He doesn't seem to have a focus, instead, he's like Superman, good in all things.

3. A Wits of 15 is also just too high. This puts him close to Saruman and Gandalf in smarts.

4. He doesn't qualify to be a Captain, as his Armed Combat isn't the required 8+.

5. Odd that he wouldn't have Armed Combat: Polearms (Spear) as it is a racial weapon.

6. His skill levels seem way too high for his number of advancements - did you add his attribute bonuses into them?

7. He might also have Lore: Realm (Gondor).

8. No way would he be a master in Quenya. The Rohir have long been suspicious of the Elves, and it seems odd that one of their Kings would devote so much time to mastering a language he would rarely, if ever, have been given a chance to speak.

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Originally posted by Jason Durall
A quick look at him gives me the following comments:

1. Obviously, the Bearing 17 score is ridiculously high. By contrast, the Witch-king has a 16, Saruman a 16, and Shelob a 13.

2. The rest of his attributes seem very high as well. He doesn't seem to have a focus, instead, he's like Superman, good in all things.

3. A Wits of 15 is also just too high. This puts him close to Saruman and Gandalf in smarts.

4. He doesn't qualify to be a Captain, as his Armed Combat isn't the required 8+.

5. Odd that he wouldn't have Armed Combat: Polearms (Spear) as it is a racial weapon.

6. His skill levels seem way too high for his number of advancements - did you add his attribute bonuses into them?

7. He might also have Lore: Realm (Gondor).

8. No way would he be a master in Quenya. The Rohir have long been suspicious of the Elves, and it seems odd that one of their Kings would devote so much time to mastering a language he would rarely, if ever, have been given a chance to speak.

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1) One of the things I will be changeing shortly. Though I must say I find the Brg rating listed above for those characters to be very low IMO. A starting Dunedain character could easily start with a 13 Brg (a 12 should be rolled somewhere in the nine rolls for gen. +1 racial mod.) and if he is in the Noble order he is only (potentially) 3 advances away from being as good as the Which-King in that stat. What to do when a PC reaches that point? Say he can't go higher? Anyway, niether here nor there, the Brg in this case is too high given the rules.

2) Ok, I seem to misunderstand something here. As attributes basically have no limit (only limited by the "starting limit" of 12,) what is average for a character that has been around for sometime? I don't see Theoden having more then 1 score below 10.

3) Ok, I can agree with this. A lower Wits, and maybe an extra lvl or 2 in the Wise trait would still give the character the air of intelligence I want.

4) Good catch. :)

5) Eh? I must have really missed something here, racial weapon? Where is this listed?

6) The skill levels were calculated with advancements in mind. I would buy X (skill, edge, etc.) keeping track of picks spent and marking when 5 had been used. As said I tinkered with one or two, why I have "approx" by his advances, they might be closer to 20. I am not exactly sure. Yes, the attribute mods have been added to the skill levels.

7) Again, good catch. Thanks.:)

8) As I said in an above post, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Quenya a "scholarly" language? Wouldn't the libraries of Minas Tirith have volumes written in that language?

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Originally posted by Phantom
1) One of the things I will be changeing shortly. Though I must say I find the Brg rating listed above for those characters to be very low IMO. A starting Dunedain character could easily start with a 13 Brg (a 12 should be rolled somewhere in the nine rolls for gen. +1 racial mod.) and if he is in the Noble order he is only (potentially) 3 advances away from being as good as the Which-King in that stat. What to do when a PC reaches that point? Say he can't go higher? Anyway, niether here nor there, the Brg in this case is too high given the rules.

2) Ok, I seem to misunderstand something here. As attributes basically have no limit (only limited by the "starting limit" of 12,) what is average for a character that has been around for sometime? I don't see Theoden having more then 1 score below 10.

3) Ok, I can agree with this. A lower Wits, and maybe an extra lvl or 2 in the Wise trait would still give the character the air of intelligence I want.

4) Good catch. :)

5) Eh? I must have really missed something here, racial weapon? Where is this listed?

6) The skill levels were calculated with advancements in mind. I would buy X (skill, edge, etc.) keeping track of picks spent and marking when 5 had been used. As said I tinkered with one or two, why I have "approx" by his advances, they might be closer to 20. I am not exactly sure. Yes, the attribute mods have been added to the skill levels.

7) Again, good catch. Thanks.:)

8) As I said in an above post, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Quenya a "scholarly" language? Wouldn't the libraries of Minas Tirith have volumes written in that language?

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Some quick replies:

1) and 2) Attributes are forever limited by 12+ racial bonuses. I think that there was discussion of means for legendary characters to overcome these limits, but currently, scores above that are just not achievable by player-characters. And while Thengel was a fine king, he was not really the stuff of legendry.

Reactions, however, are limitless.

5) It's not really specified in the rulebook, but the lance/spear is the primary weapon of the Rohirrim (and most horsemen).

6) Typically, with these writeups, the skill levels are left unmodified, to show what the exact level of the skill actually is - as most requisites for edges and order abilities are based off the raw score. The rulebook is vague about it, but posts from Doug Burke on the Decipher forums have indicated that this is the ruling.

8) Quenya is indeed a scholarly language. I would imagine perhaps 3-5 ranks in it to indicate a scholarly interest. A score of 10 indicates to me someone who uses the language fluently, is a master of dialects, inflection, and obscure vocabulary - none of which Thengel comes across as.

Version 1.5 now at top of thread. Let me know what you think of the changes.

Is there a reason that he is black haired and brown eyed, when Rohir are usually blonde-haired and blue-eyed?

Mainly a personal choice, I thought the greying hair (a sign of age and thus wisdom in these cultures) would show up better in darker hair. ::Shrug:: A minor point, easily fixed.

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Originally posted by Jason Durall
Some quick replies:

1) and 2) Attributes are forever limited by 12+ racial bonuses. I think that there was discussion of means for legendary characters to overcome these limits, but currently, scores above that are just not achievable by player-characters. And while Thengel was a fine king, he was not really the stuff of legendry.

Reactions, however, are limitless.

5) It's not really specified in the rulebook, but the lance/spear is the primary weapon of the Rohirrim (and most horsemen).

6) Typically, with these writeups, the skill levels are left unmodified, to show what the exact level of the skill actually is - as most requisites for edges and order abilities are based off the raw score. The rulebook is vague about it, but posts from Doug Burke on the Decipher forums have indicated that this is the ruling.

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1) Attributes; I maybe taking this too literally. "Your maximum starting score in any attribute is 12 plus racial mod." This says to me that once play has begun the PC can raise the attribute above this beginning limit. Has there been some change to this? If so, then how can Arwen have a 15 Brg? The Sindar get only a +1 to Brg this equals a max of 13. I wouldn't class Arwen as a legendary character either. And the attribute chart goes up to 18+ stats.

5) Primary weapon, yes. But, as a Noble his training would be with that of a Aristocrats weapon...The Sword. Many use the Sword, of course, but in the Saxon heritage (which I feel is what JRR based the Rohirrim on) the Sword was a Noble weapon. The spear, though highly useful on horse back, was still a commoners weapon. Besides, with an armed combat of +8 his is quite effienct with it anyway.

6) Hmmm, don't go to the Dec forums. I ll remember that in future, I just transfer the character over from my files and this is how I save the character.

BTW, I removed the Quenya and replaced it with Atliduk (Beorning dialect.)

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Originally posted by Phantom
1) Attributes; I maybe taking this too literally. "Your maximum starting score in any attribute is 12 plus racial mod." This says to me that once play has begun the PC can raise the attribute above this beginning limit. Has there been some change to this? If so, then how can Arwen have a 15 Brg? The Sindar get only a +1 to Brg this equals a max of 13. I wouldn't class Arwen as a legendary character either. And the attribute chart goes up to 18+ stats.

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Yes, there's been a couple of changes. Check out the official Support Documents.

CRF: "Page 44: Attributes cannot be higher than 12 + Racial Modifiers at any time, except for certain spells which may temporarily increase an Attribute."

Also, I believe the Two Towers Sourcebook will have a rule for exceeding the racial norm for your Favoured Attributes (and only your favoured attributes).

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5) Primary weapon, yes. But, as a Noble his training would be with that of a Aristocrats weapon...The Sword. Many use the Sword, of course, but in the Saxon heritage (which I feel is what JRR based the Rohirrim on) the Sword was a Noble weapon. The spear, though highly useful on horse back, was still a commoners weapon. Besides, with an armed combat of +8 his is quite effienct with it anyway.

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Actually, the Rohirrim were more Norse than Saxon, at least they seemed so to me. Swords were very common, but so were spears (or lances).

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6) Hmmm, don't go to the Dec forums. I ll remember that in future, I just transfer the character over from my files and this is how I save the character.

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I would suggest possibly putting a footnote on the stats indicating that the skills are the total (modified) values.

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Originally posted by Doug Burke
Yes, there's been a couple of changes. Check out the official Support Documents.

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I notice that the ones here are a bit out of date. Could they be updated?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Burke

1) CRF: "Page 44: Attributes cannot be higher than 12 + Racial Modifiers at any time, except for certain spells which may temporarily increase an Attribute."

Also, I believe the Two Towers Sourcebook will have a rule for exceeding the racial norm for your Favoured Attributes (and only your favoured attributes).

2) Actually, the Rohirrim were more Norse than Saxon, at least they seemed so to me. Swords were very common, but so were spears (or lances).

3) I would suggest possibly putting a footnote on the stats indicating that the skills are the total (modified) values.

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1) Ok, but it still doesn't tell me how Arwen can have a 15 Brg, unless Brg is one of her favoured attributes...Which is possible I suppose, she would be a Noble.

2) I thought so as well. Until I saw the TTT display in Toronto. The armour and weapon designs were definetly inspired by the artifacts found at Sutton Hoo in Britain, a Saxon burial site. Eomer's helm is almost a direct copy of the Saxon King's helm found there.:) But, I guess it is a matter of personal opinion.

3) I was thinking the samething. ;)

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Originally posted by Jason Durall
I notice that the ones here are a bit out of date. Could they be updated?

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Could what be updated?

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Originally posted by Phantom
Could what be updated?

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The official support documents, as referred to in the quote above my post.

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Originally posted by Jason Durall
I notice that the ones here are a bit out of date. Could they be updated?

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Yeah, I keep forgetting to update the ones here. I'll try to get it done this weekend. :)

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Originally posted by Phantom
1) Ok, but it still doesn't tell me how Arwen can have a 15 Brg, unless Brg is one of her favoured attributes...Which is possible I suppose, she would be a Noble.

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Bingo! :)

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2) I thought so as well. Until I saw the TTT display in Toronto. The armour and weapon designs were definetly inspired by the artifacts found at Sutton Hoo in Britain, a Saxon burial site. Eomer's helm is almost a direct copy of the Saxon King's helm found there.:) But, I guess it is a matter of personal opinion.

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True. And it's not like I claim to be any sort of Tolkien scholar...

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3) I was thinking the samething. ;)

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You know what they say. Great minds, same gutter. ;)

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Originally posted by Phantom
2) I thought so as well. Until I saw the TTT display in Toronto. The armour and weapon designs were definetly inspired by the artifacts found at Sutton Hoo in Britain, a Saxon burial site. Eomer's helm is almost a direct copy of the Saxon King's helm found there.:) But, I guess it is a matter of personal opinion.

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I went to the two exhibits here in Toronto as well (btw, the one at Casa Loma in 2001 was much better than the one at the Planetarium last year!), and I'd have to agree with Phantom's assesment of the Rohirrim weapon design. Mind you, the artisans and designers may have wanted to deliberately steer clear of anything that "looked too viking like", so I guess it really is just a case of personal taste.

Cheers,

Steve

You Canadians are so lucky and so awesome. ;)

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Originally posted by Phantom
1) Ok, but it still doesn't tell me how Arwen can have a 15 Brg, unless Brg is one of her favoured attributes...Which is possible I suppose, she would be a Noble.

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But, then by extention, Thengel could achieve the same thing as he to is a Noble with Brg as a fav att.

Ok, I think we have Thengel hammered out now. If anyone has any other ideas I would like to hear them, but I think I have him at a satisfactory level.

So, onto the next side of the coin...The Ruling Steward of Gondor.

Again comments welcome.


Name: Ecthelion II, son of Turgon, 25th Steward of Gondor.
Order:Loremmaster, Noble, Captain
Race: Dunedain
Racial Abilities: Adaptable (+2 Stamina), Dominion of Man, Skilled (+1 Ranged Combat, +1 Debate.)
Gender: Male
Age: 60
Height: 6'
Weight: 225 lbs
Hair: Black
Eyes: Hazel
Home: Minas Tirith
Family: Married, Son Denethor
Advancements: 21
Order Abilities: Ancient Scripts, Scroll Hoard, Expertise (Gondor), Courtier, Deference, Domain (Gondor)Noble Mien, Air of Command, Leadership

Attributes
Bearing*-------12-------+3
Nimbleness----10-------+2
Perception-----11-------+2
Strength---------9-------+1
Vitality---------11-------+2
Wits*-----------13-------+3

Skills:
Armed Combat: Blades (Eket) +8, Climb +2, Debate (Negotiate, Parley) +5, Games (chess) +3, Healing (Treat Illness) +4, Inquire +3 (Converse), Insight +5, Inspire +4, Lang.:Adunaic +5, Lang: Quenya +4, Lang: Rohiric +4, Lang: Sindarin +4, Lang: Westron +6, Lore: Gondorian Nobility +6, Lore: Heraldry +5, Lore: History (Gondor) +6, Lore: History (Minas Tirith) +6, Lore: Realm (Gondor) +6, Observe (Spot) +3, Perform ( Compose Verse) +4, Persuade (Oratory) +5, Ranged Combat: Bows (Long Bow) +2, Ride (Horse) +4, Run +3, Search +4, Siegecraft (Defense) +3, Swim +2, Weather-Sense +2

Edges:
Command 4 (Tower Guard), Curious, Healing Hands, Hoard 5, Honey Tongued, Honour’s Insight, Rank 4 (Steward of Gondor) Wise

Flaws:
Duty (to the People of Gondor), Proud

Reactions
Stamina: +4
Swiftness: +2
Willpower: +3
Wisdom: +3*

Defence: 10
Health: 13

Courage: 4
Renown: 13

Note:
-Attributes were rolled, no picks added as yet.
-Skills show only the skill level.
-Age was arbitraily arrived at, couldn't find exact number.

So, does the silence mean everyone agrees with the way Ecthelion II was done?;)

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Originally posted by Phantom
So, does the silence mean everyone agrees with the way Ecthelion II was done?;)

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I haven't had a chance to look at him with my rulebook handy, and won't have one until after Gen Con, sadly.

I am a little surprised about his attributes, though... did you use some "best of three" system for rolling them?

Additionally, his reactions seem awfully low for a 21-advancement character.

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Originally posted by Jason Durall
1) I haven't had a chance to look at him with my rulebook handy, and won't have one until after Gen Con, sadly.

2) I am a little surprised about his attributes, though... did you use some "best of three" system for rolling them?

3) Additionally, his reactions seem awfully low for a 21-advancement character.

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1) Did you lend it to someone? Or are you accessing the internet on another console?

2) Actually, no 9 rolls best 6. I was kind of using the random method to prove a point, the one started with Thengel showing that the random method can create fairly powerful characters, giving credence to Thengel's original stats. I was surprised it worked as it did.

3) That would be because I forgot to add to them. Oopps, I 'll look into that. Thanks.


BTW, not part of the general idea presented here, but has anyone (fan or Dec) done the stats for Gamling(?) Theoden's bodyguard?

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Originally posted by Phantom
Did you lend it to someone? Or are you accessing the internet on another console?

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Moving from one apartment to another in a week - and I am at work now - so my rulebook is not only at home 5 miles away from me, it is packed in a box and will stay there until August 1.