Engage!Where is my minis game?

I was talking to a Decipher rep at the SD Comic-Con and the discussion turned to the topic of the proposed ST miniatures game.This guy told me that the rules for the game were done.I didn't ask him whether they had been playtested or not.Since nothing on the web has mentioned it so far ,I'll assume that it hasn't.When I asked him when it would go to print he told me that the game was on hold.The reason being that the miniatures market is a big tug-of-war between Wizkids and Games Workshop and from a business point of veiw, Decipher needs to see what happens before they commit to producing expensive miniatures.And a proposed FASA buyout that didn't happen took Ral Partha out of the picture,as of right now they don't have a minis manufacturer.THE GAME IS ON HOLD!! THEY HAVE RULES AND I CAN'T HAVE THEM !!

I am preturbed.Here is the best possible miniture game situation I can think of:
My small task force of A Defiant -class ship, flanked by 2 Mirandas flies in at full impulse ready to throw down with a couple of V-2 Warbirds.
I NEED to play this game.I would love to paint some ST minis as well.Looks like I will have to wait indefinetly.I really hope that this game sees the light of day.If anyone has any ideas on how to push Decipher on this please fell free to express them.It would be a shame if the whole project was scrapped.and I realize the guy I talked to, though a Decipher rep ,is not a 100% official source.Comments ?Who else wants to play Engage! ?

Me! Me!

I don't care about playing it, I just want ships. Norway!

I want the ship and to play it, but I figure that once it does finally come out, it will be worth while. Just be patient. :)

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Originally posted by Lt Cmdr Matt
I want the ship and to play it, but I figure that once it does finally come out, it will be worth while. Just be patient. :)

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Thats the tough part.From what the rep was saying,it sounded like the game might not happen at all.But if I remember correctly Decipher's plans before the launch of their RPGs was to include miniatures as well ,giving Star Trek the full treatment it deserves.I hope they don't abandon the minis thing. Even with just mediocre rules, Engage! would instantly be the best minis game on the market,IMO.Hope the patience pays off.

The Wiz Kids click games like BattleTech and Mage Lord are tremendous. I bet a Trek version of this would sell like hotcakes. Someone should see is Viacom/Paramount will let Decipher sub-lease this part of their game license in return for a % of the profit (that's very Ferengi of me:)

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Originally posted by ImperialOne
The Wiz Kids click games like BattleTech and Mage Lord are tremendous. I bet a Trek version of this would sell like hotcakes. Someone should see is Viacom/Paramount will let Decipher sub-lease this part of their game license in return for a % of the profit (that's very Ferengi of me:)

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God,I hope not.Don't take this as a personal attack,Imperial,clix games are IMO not even real miniatures games.Sure the peices move,fire,take damage,and have ratings for their stats, but beyond that they are nothing more than toys with numbers on them.I've played demo games for some of them and besides 1 or 2 specific rules (such as loops in Crimson Skies or heat in Mechwarrior) there really isn't anything in the way of mechanics that simulates what each specific game is.A battlemech and the Juggernaut might as well be the same thing.Every single ability,power,or tech item is reduced to 4 or 5 numbers.

I definetly don't want too see the difference between a polaron beam and NX-01's phase cannons being just a difference in combat values.All of a ships sheilds reduced to 1 defense characteristic ?That would kind of violate the background of "Treknology" that many of us have loved and followed for years.

I do understand that there are many who don't want to paint minis and don't like complex rules sets.But I veiw the whole clix way of gaming to be nothing more than the current fad (remember Discwars and collectable dice games ?)I've spent many hours playing Babylon 5 Wars,FASA's Tactical Combat Simulator,and classic Battletech.Even games like the original Car Wars and Heavy Gear Tactical that require a lot less bookeeping fleshed out their respective genres and gave a strong overall "feel" of what the game was supposed to simulate through good game mechanics-some times lots of them, sometimes not.But clix is just too "rules lite" to simulate good Star Trek.And the corporate tug-of-war between Wizkids and Games Workshop ( GW being the Antichrist of miniatures companies) is one of the reasons why Decipher isn't releasing the allready finished rules for Engage!.The market is cornered by them.

But since I am so eager for Engage! to be released ,if it was clix I would still buy it.I would be disappointed but would still play.And I feel like an ass for saying that last part.And I would definetley have to redo those horrible Wizkids paint jobs.

If it comes out as a click-game, I would not buy it. Give me B5 Wars, SFB, True Battletech (CBT) or any other game that actually has a true definition of equipment and their abilities say like Spacedock any day over that.

I like my detail and would be too disappointed by such a reduction it would be in ability of each ship that they would effectively lose their distinctiveness.

But I shall wait and see what they produce.

Regards,
CKV.

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Originally posted by Capt. K. Vaughn
If it comes out as a click-game, I would not buy it. Give me B5 Wars, SFB, True Battletech (CBT) or any other game that actually has a true definition of equipment and their abilities say like Spacedock any day over that.

I like my detail and would be too disappointed by such a reduction it would be in ability of each ship that they would effectively lose their distinctiveness.

But I shall wait and see what they produce.

Regards,
CKV.

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We'll pray to the Great Bird that it won't be a clix game ,Captain. The Decipher rules are allready finished and hopefully will see the light of day.Detail is essential to a science fiction miniatures game. Good to hear from another B5W player.:)

I agree, if the rules are not very detailed, then I will not play it. Although I will still buy the minis just to have, since I gave away all my other Trek minis. :(

Oh please... phasers and polaron beams only have distinction between each other because you give them that distinction.

Even in the shows, the difference between phasers, disruptors, polaron beams and the like are the color of the little stream of light that hits the ship.

Anyone who thinks that there is no distinction in clix-based games has clearly never read the rules involved in playing clix-based minis games. . Specific units (especially Mechwarrior: Dark Age) are incredibly distinctive between each other.

Yes, specific attacks are lumped together, but it makes for speed and ease of play. In general, Trek ships are much less distinctive between each other than battlemechs. They all fly using warp and impulse drive, have beam weapons and/or torpedoes of some kind, and use forcefields for defence.

Having a Beam weapon score with a green box could indicate disruptors (with their own in-game effects), a blue box could indicate phasors (with their own in-game effects), and so on and so forth for other ship characteristics.

Stripped down like this, it becomes possible to hold a fast and exciting impromptu space battle anywhere you can carry your minis, with as much set up as possible, or as little set-up as you like.


The claim that Clix games are just toys and not true miniature games is elitist, snobbish, and just plain ignorant.

You are dead wrong .The difference in Trek weaponry being omly the color of the beams?Have you ever heard of the star Trek The Next Generation Technical manual?The DS9 or Starfleet Tech Manauls?Have you ever watched DS9 or TNG ?The hypothetical technology of Star Trek has been fleshed out during 36 years of TV and movies.And sometime around 10 years ago people like Okuda and Sternbach with the guidance of Gene Roddenberry defined what was official and put a lot of the Treknology in print.Though not allways followed by the writers ,Star Trek has the most documented technical background in science fiction.Watch TNG or DS9,pay attention to Geordi and O'Brein there is acctually some consistency when they talk abuot technical issues.

Classic Battletech had a good mech construction system.There were differences between Clan and Inner Sphere mechs and even in mechs built by different Sucessor States.But nothing as comprehensive in terms of pure though imaginary technical explanations.Too bad wizkids has abandoned this in favor of a learning curve made for 10 year olds.It has no place in short attention span gaming.

How are the clix toys distinctive from each other?Because one moves faster than another?Because it can take more damage?Having every peice of hardware brokeen down into 5 or 6 special abilities doesn't simulate anything.Miniatures games are simulations of battles.If you hack the rules to the level of MW:DA or Crimson skies the games are reduced to toys with numbers on them moving around on the table.But if having to juggle all of those troublesome rules keeps you from winning and if being true to your source material isn't important then by all means keep playing clix games.And in a couple of years when the clix fad dies maybe you'll br ready to play a real miniatures game.I played Battletech for 10 years.Mechwarrior sure as hell isn't Battletech. The only ignorant statements have been made by you.

And snobbish? The demos I have played for the clix games were all run by Wizkids reps.Older than your average clix player.All members of the gaming community.Nice guys and fellow gamers. The players at my LGS (the ones I talk to are all old enough to vote-no disrespect to anyone who isn't) are all people I talk to regullarly about games,music,politics,whatever.My peers.I've played minis games for over 20 years.I know what miniatuers games are.Clix games are a flash in the pan.When Wizkids goes under,remember everything I've just said.Its cool that little kids are being introduced to miniatures with Heroclix and magenight.But these are games with rules geared towards 10 year olds.Ask anyone who has played minis games for a long time.These are games on the level of Risk or Stratego.But Risk and Stratego are far better games.

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Originally posted by Lowly Uhlan
You are dead wrong .The difference in Trek weaponry being omly the color of the beams?Have you ever heard of the star Trek The Next Generation Technical manual?The DS9 or Starfleet Tech Manauls?Have you ever watched DS9 or TNG ?The hypothetical technology of Star Trek has been fleshed out during 36 years of TV and movies.And sometime around 10 years ago people like Okuda and Sternbach with the guidance of Gene Roddenberry defined what was official and put a lot of the Treknology in print.Though not allways followed by the writers ,Star Trek has the most documented technical background in science fiction.Watch TNG or DS9,pay attention to Geordi and O'Brein there is acctually some consistency when they talk abuot technical issues.

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Seriously, now... I'm not talking about Treknology. I'm talking about GAME EFFECTS. Can you honestly give me a reason as to why getting hit with a phasor and getting hit with a disruptor will have any qualitative difference (i.e. one hurting less) other than the power of the weapon? Both are beam weapons, and hit according to how good the ship targeting computers are, not on the merits of individual ways the beams are generated.

Ah, but you say that Polaron weapons go through shields? OKay, then have the weapon descriptor state that said weapon goes through shields. A disruptor does extra damage to shields? Fine, then state so in the weapon descriptor. There's a lot of granularity there in the clix system. Weapon and equipment qualifiers and descriptors are given to designate what weapons are what, and special effects they have in the game. Just exactly like other minis games.

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Classic Battletech had a good mech construction system.There were differences between Clan and Inner Sphere mechs and even in mechs built by different Sucessor States.But nothing as comprehensive in terms of pure though imaginary technical explanations.Too bad wizkids has abandoned this in favor of a learning curve made for 10 year olds.It has no place in short attention span gaming.

How are the clix toys distinctive from each other?Because one moves faster than another?Because it can take more damage?Having every peice of hardware brokeen down into 5 or 6 special abilities doesn't simulate anything.Miniatures games are simulations of battles.If you hack the rules to the level of MW:DA or Crimson skies the games are reduced to toys with numbers on them moving around on the table.But if having to juggle all of those troublesome rules keeps you from winning and if being true to your source material isn't important then by all means keep playing clix games.And in a couple of years when the clix fad dies maybe you'll br ready to play a real miniatures game.I played Battletech for 10 years.Mechwarrior sure as hell isn't Battletech. The only ignorant statements have been made by you.

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I'm honestly trying to keep myself from laughing, here. All miniatures games are as you just described: "Toys with numbers on them moving around on the table." The only differences between clix minis and "traditional" skirmish level miniature games is that the traditionals have the stats written down on a piece of paper and have more involved book-keeping.

I am a wargamer, and have not just come into this discussion half cocked. I've been playing Battletech since Jr. High. I've dealt with LAMs, the influx of the Clans and everything else. I *LOVE* Battletech. I also have Mechwarrior: Dark Age. I also love it. Both are "real" miniatures games. I play both of them and like each for its individual merits. One is better for sheer tactical thinking. One is faster and better for games on the fly.

What you're missing out on is the fact that the clix games are bringing in a whole lot of new blood into the hobby. The approach of "It's not a real game, so I'm going to ignore all these darn kids and play my big complicated game all alone with the people who know what REAL games are like," is damaging to the hobby as a whole. Once you realize that at its basic, our hobby is about playing with toys, and that one rules set can lead to another, it's not a hard jump to "Hey... you kids like this game, right? You're pretty good at it. You'd be good at this game too, wanna try it out?"

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And snobbish? The demos I have played for the clix games were all run by Wizkids reps.Older than your average clix player.All members of the gaming community.Nice guys and fellow gamers. The players at my LGS (the ones I talk to are all old enough to vote-no disrespect to anyone who isn't) are all people I talk to regullarly about games,music,politics,whatever.My peers.I've played minis games for over 20 years.I know what miniatuers games are.Clix games are a flash in the pan.When Wizkids goes under,remember everything I've just said.Its cool that little kids are being introduced to miniatures with Heroclix and magenight.But these are games with rules geared towards 10 year olds.Ask anyone who has played minis games for a long time.These are games on the level of Risk or Stratego.But Risk and Stratego are far better games.

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Yes, that pretty much fits most of my friends' definition of snobbish, as well as my own. Just because the rules of something are simple, you shouldn't discount it. Take a look at Othello, otherwise known as Reversi. The rules are simple, simpler than even Risk or Stratego, but actual play involves deep thought into out-thinking your opponant.

It just occured to me that a great deal of the antagonism that's being directed towards the clix games is coming out of jealousy, plain and simple. Clix games have caught on and are becoming mainstream, where as traditional miniatures games are still stuck in the nich that they've been in. It's comfortable being in a niche. You get to look out and say "I'm special because my games are rich and complex and hard for the average person to understand." When you actually begin to believe that the complexity of one makes you better than people who play something new and different and more popular, that's snobbery born out of jealousy.

I have to agree...

Speaking as a Roleplayer. The vast majority of us are snobbish. We dont mean to be, and our reactions when told are often one of 2 reactions. Either shock and a vow to change our ways (until the next thing comes along)... Or outright denial.

Dont feel bad, thats simply human nature at work.

You guys have both by your own admission been playing a long time...

So in that time you will have encountered all the various ruptures in our small circle of hobby enthusiats.

RPG vs. Miniature Wargames
RPG vs. Computer RPGs
RPG vs. Trading Cards
and now
Miniature Wargames vs. Clix.

At this rate I dont want to see Clix over this side of the pond, but only to avoid another round of the same arguement being trotted out.

Just remember, You should not fear change, and (more importantly for this BBS thread moderator hat on) you should not revert to petty insults... Calling something Stupid, Snobbish or whatever simply lessens an arguement, and increases the chance that an interesting disccussion about oposing ideas breaks down into a petty arguement. Which is when threads get moderated. Moderator hat off.

Maybe its time to start steering the thread back on-topic guys?

Back on topic.Right.All I'll say is that Star Trek miniatures deserves the full treatment in terms of complexity that other good space combat games have gotten in the past.Even a small amount of stats similar to the gear entries on the cadre sheets in Heavy Gear would be sufficient ,though not a spce game a good example(5 models represented on 1 sheet with individual peices of hardware explained in detail in the rulebook).Enough in the way of game mechanics to give the "feel" of ship combat.Sheilds in seperate arcs, power distribution,fire arcs,weapons that have game effects according to what type of weapon they are would be good.

And I have no fear of the clix games,I previously stated that so many new players being introduced to tabletop gaming through Wizkids games was a plus.Some of them will move on to other games some won't.And there will allways be those of us that need to paint their own models and crave complexity of rules.And none of the games that I currently play are in any danger of being converted to a clix-based system.

Personally I can't get into Star Trek miniatures, except maybe as collectibles. If I were to get back into minis, I'd want it to be something historical, thus giving a basis for deciding whether the rules are accurate or not (minis battles, from my time in them, seem to hinge on the accuracy factor). Star Trek, since it is ultimately made up with nothing hard and fast to compare to, would be "anyone's best guess" for a set of rules.

This is also why I stayed well away from Starfleet Battles.

Personal tastes, though.

Hmm, now if I could get the English Civil War miniatures game group going again...

Staying away from SFB is a sign of good taste...Way to complex. IMO

I would personally love to see a middle ground for my Star Trek desires. I certainly am done with the micro-management power allocation method that SFB, FASA, and LUGs RPG/Spacedock had. Thank the Decipher game designers and Don for providing us with that bit of evolution. However, as much as I enjoy the speed and ease of the new combat rules that Decipher has presented I still feel a little more accuracy would please me.

As much as I hate to say it the Decipher rules would easily converted to a Clix style system. It would be smooth and easy to get a game going. Would'nt require a life age of this world to finish either. I am another "Old School" gamer who has watched games and gimmicks come and go. Anyone remember POGS? God, I hated those things. They're gone now. Good riddence, but I digress. The fact is that I would support a clix style rules set for two reasons.

1) It will make it easier to bring fresh blood to our hobby. The future of gaming is in the hands of the younger generation. (Even if they all have Attention Deficit Disorder) I personally am not willing to give up my TOYs yet, and I'm willing to play nice so that I still have my TOYs to play with. I'll share.

2) I have been eagerly awaiting new minis. All my old FASA and Ral Partha starships are falling apart. If for nothing else than representations for my RPG game to show relative position. I have thrice been promised new minis. LUG had plans to release thier "Ships of the line" series, that segwayed into minis for the proposed spacedock game. Then Decipher says that they have a minis game in the works, but due to industry issues we are most likely on the loosing side again.

The only thing that I am hesitant about with a clix style game is the quality of the minatures. I have seen the MAge Knight and Mechwarrior: DA stuff. Gaudy processed rubber. I would be hesitant to buy that. However, if they were to do sommething like Wizards of the Coast is trying to pull off with the hard plastic, pre-painted D&D minis then I would be more than satisfied.

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Originally posted by Ramage
Personally I can't get into Star Trek miniatures, except maybe as collectibles. If I were to get back into minis, I'd want it to be something historical, thus giving a basis for deciding whether the rules are accurate or not (minis battles, from my time in them, seem to hinge on the accuracy factor). Star Trek, since it is ultimately made up with nothing hard and fast to compare to, would be "anyone's best guess" for a set of rules.

This is also why I stayed well away from Starfleet Battles.

Personal tastes, though.

Hmm, now if I could get the English Civil War miniatures game group going again...

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While Star Fleet Battles is a long lived and solid space combat game its way off as far as canon goes.But dude,how could you possibly own the (hypothetical Decipher) minis and not play ?

Moot point I guess,since the game and minis might not ever be released.:mad:

And good point on the accuracy factor.I guess it would come down to whether the game fit your conception of what "realistic" Star Trek ship combat would be like.FASA's system fit pretty well IMO.

Lastly, has anyone out there read the "Starmada" rules? When I looked at it at the LGS it seemed like it could be adapted to Trek.