Combat Difficulty #'s

One of my players is pretty livid about unarmed combat difficulty numbers. For instance to grapple someone requires a roll of 9. This means someone with an unarmed combat skill of 2 would have to get a dramatic success to succeed. Seems a little steep to 'rassle someone. The other difficulty numbers are strange too. I'm trying out lowering them to routine difficulty numbers modified by, dodging, accuracy, initiative, etc. But I was wondering if anyone else had some unarmed combat re-tooling ideas?

I don't have any re-tooling ideas, but ask your player to consider this when thinking about difficulty numbers...

Combat (especially Unarmed Combat) is a dynamic situation - people, places, circumstances, are always in motion. Your opponent does not want to be hit, grappled, etc...and is always in motion (as much as possible) to avoid being so. The difficulty numbers reflect this. Bear in mind that when the opponent is injured, held, prone, etc...the difficulty number(s) required to hit your opponent drop.

To demonstrate: Ask your player to try and grapple you when you're standing still - and then ask him to grapple you while you're doing everything you can to avoid him. Watch the difficulty of the attempted grapple rise when you're avoiding him...and then you'll see that the difficulty numbers start to make sense.

Alternatively: simply drop all Unarmed Combat difficulty numbers by one or two...but do itacross the board. That is, all parties get the benefits of lower difficulty numbers - PCs, NPCs, the Bad Guys, etc...

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How do I set a Laser Printer to stun?

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 02-12-2001).]

I always found a lot of the combat numbers high, as well. If the guys are trying to avoid, I figure they're using their unarmed combat defensive maneuvers. A success adds to the difficulty. I figure most combat actions to be in the 5-7 range, with really fancy maneuvers like the wrist lock and flip of akido a bit more difficult (7-9).

You really want to see players freak out, hand one of them a (sp) Bat'leth... http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif


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Don
trekrpg@trekrpg.net
http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/sig_don.gif

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Originally posted by qerlin:
If the guys are trying to avoid, I figure they're using their unarmed combat defensive maneuvers.

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Not at all. In a fight, I can move around to try and get advantageous positioning without using a defensive technique. When I spar against opponents in Karate training, there is a very real difference between moving to avoid your opponent and blocking his attacks. The success of the defence determines the success required for the attack to succeed. Moving around means that my opponent has to either move with me to maximise his chances of hitting me, or else he can attack from where he is - at an increased difficulty.

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How do I set a Laser Printer to stun?

I'm probably on the same level here with Paul, as I would agree with his assessment.
Lowering the numbers by 1-2 judging by there apparent difficulty could pay off. Just do a bit of sparring in your next game and see what happens. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

Personally I like the minimum difficulties... You would be surprised at how often most players hit the target.

But if your really not happy and looking for an easy mechanic, simply make it an opposed test. The roll to hit vs the roll to dodge/block or whatever... Then it evens the playing field and crappy rolls make a BIG difference...

But when they ask (and someone probably will), remember. unless you can freeze time or move at the speed of light (which IS possible in Trek) dodging phasers is a no-no. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
...But when they ask (and someone probably will), remember. unless you can freeze time or move at the speed of light (which IS possible in Trek) dodging phasers is a no-no. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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This argument used to come up in my old WEG Star Wars games - the WEG mechanic of shoot vs dodge is similar (for those who aren't familiar with WEG's Star Wars: The RPG game), and people used to always complain about characters dodging energy weapons.

My argument has always been that it's not about someone literally "dodging bullets" (ala The Matrix), but rather about their ability to jink, dive, roll and generally run about to make themselves a difficult target (have a game of CounterStrike to see how this works! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif).

I use a modification of the dodge rules, based on the Star Wars system. If a character wishes to take other actions, they can perform a "normal" dodge, which replaces the standard difficulty number with the character's roll. Or, if they wish, they can perform a "full dodge". With this, their roll is added to the difficulty number, but they can take no other actions. Essentially, this represents not trying to return fire, but simply hitting the ground and hugging it - by not sticking their head (or other bits of their anatomy) up to do something else, they make themselves that much harder to hit.

Having said that, I don't go with phasers moving at light-speed. Watching a phaser shot frame-by-frame, they appear similar to blaster shots in the Star Wars movies - travelling at a measurable, visible speed - perhaps roughly that of a bullet.

The only theory I can think of that adequately explains it is that higher power to a phaser increases the beam's velocity (part of the cause of the thermal and kinetic energy damage effects). So hand-held phasers only work at about bullet-speed, whereas large ship-based arrays fire at near light-speed.

*Shrug* Works for me, anyway! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif



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"May I find you with peace, and leave you with hope."

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
Personally I like the minimum difficulties... You would be surprised at how often most players hit the target.



But when they ask (and someone probably will), remember. unless you can freeze time or move at the speed of light (which IS possible in Trek) dodging phasers is a no-no. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Hate to disagree with my esteemed colleague here -- especially when Chief Dovoro is still a sitting duck in a runabout in his PBEM :P -- but remember that you're not dodging the phaser blast, you're dodging the hand-eye tracking coordination of the guy firing it. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif You're trying to throw off his aim, dig?

What I have a problem with, personally, regarding the LUGTrek combat system is not that the HTH difficulties are high -- I consider each round an exchange of blows, and there's stuff going on and the Diff is the chance of getting in that one telling blow that does damage -- but rather than the phaser fire difficulties are so low. Frankly, unless your Dodge score is a 3 or more, you might as well not bother, in every single combat I've ever run.

Which is why I grandly hint to players who win initiative in a combat round that rather than declare a Dodge roll, they might find it helpful to declare an roll to dive for cover. I use Athletics for this if it requires a strenuous effort (like hoisting oneself up onto an overhead conduit as the phaser rifle fire begins) but Dodge if it's a simple matter, for instance, of diving behind a cargo module. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

YMMV, of course, and likely does.


BJ

y'know, I'm having a lot of fun finding out who my fellow players on the board are...

and let me just say, Dan, that you've made your Chief Engineer veeeerrry nervous now.

I have to agree with Cmdr. Bluejeans on this one. You aren't dodging the beam so much as the person's skill and opportunity. Taking into consideration human reflex and the fact that a bullet is travelling faster than the speed of sound; it's very unlikely that a human should be able to 'dodge a bullet;' and, yet, how many people have survived wars, gang shootings, postal workers, etc...

The primary difference between a bullet and a beam weapon though is that you can't pull your shot/track your shot with a projectile. (Although a fully automatic weapon comes darn close, and, well... people have survived those, too...) However, this may account for the lower difficulty numbers.

I don't think that the game rules would make dispensation for dodging phasers if we weren't meant to:

Ranged Attack:
If a target dodges a ranged attack, the Difficulty is not based on range, but on the Test Result of his Dodge roll; however, the minimum Difficulty is still the one indicated by range.

Just my two strips; farbeit for me to tell my Narrator how to run his game.

Robert

[This message has been edited by Roxby (edited 02-13-2001).]

Actually, I prefer the opposed tasks -- the attacker vs. the defender's skill as Dan said.

Slightly off track here, but do you think some of the TN are a little to high at times.

I find myself lowering the TN for new characters and letting experienced ones have the lot, to balance the game.

eg. A new character makes a sensor check, rolls his 3 intellect and adds his skill of 2. Unless a dramatic sucess then 8 his limit. Now I find alot of the TN that the PC's should be aiming for can come in the 10+ range.

I think my actual PC was 2Int and 1 skill thus a 7, needing 8's and 9's.


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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

One thing many of you do not seem to be taking into account is the fact that you can add Courage to your rolls to improve your chances of success - this applies to combat rolls as well as normal task resolution. As the characters gains more experience (and thus, his skill levels improve), he needs less and less Courage added to give him success (until he needs to add no Courage at all).

Don't forget, however, you can not add Courage to improve damage done during combat.

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How do I set a Laser Printer to stun?

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Originally posted by Paul:
One thing many of you do not seem to be taking into account is the fact that you can add Courage to your rolls to improve your chances of success - this applies to combat rolls as well as normal task resolution. As the characters gains more experience (and thus, his skill levels improve), he needs less and less Courage added to give him success (until he needs to add no Courage at all).

Don't forget, however, you can not add Courage to improve damage done during combat.

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Don't worry Paul, his already using all of his courage most days (5 all up)

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

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Originally posted by SIR SIG:
Slightly off track here, but do you think some of the TN are a little to high at times.

I find myself lowering the TN for new characters and letting experienced ones have the lot, to balance the game.

eg. A new character makes a sensor check, rolls his 3 intellect and adds his skill of 2. Unless a dramatic sucess then 8 his limit. Now I find alot of the TN that the PC's should be aiming for can come in the 10+ range.

I think my actual PC was 2Int and 1 skill thus a 7, needing 8's and 9's.

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Just as a side note, I don't feel the 'too high' problem applies to most, for instance, Starship rolls, since Spacedock goes into great detail about the humongous levels of bonuses you can obtain.

BJ

True, I never though of that, yet I haven't incorporated all SD ship rules yet either.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

Getting back to the original topic question, I think the point that was originally made by this particular player is that the unarmed combat doesn't allow for 2 relatively untrained fighters very much of a chance of hitting each other. Now, this probably isn't a situation you'd encounter much, since most PCs will probably have a decent Coordination+ DEX, as well as some Starfleet martial arts training.
Let's take an example, though, of good old Dr. Paul Klutz, who is hanging out in sickbay when Ensign Madhatter, sick from Denubian mind disease, attempt to attack the good doctor. With his paltry Coordination of 2, and a little starfleet training of +2, he has to get about a 1 in 3 chance (OK, that's probably not right but I forgot my probabilities book) of actually hitting the Ensign with a punch if his difficulty number is 8. Time to grab for the hypospray instead!
Now let's take the "2 kids in the mall" scenario - both relatively healthy, with coordination of 2, but no DEX bonuses or combat training. Each has less than a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the other one - they have to get a dramatic success, plus at least a 2 on the second die. This leaves the two kids basically tumbling over each other trying to make a decent hit but just looking like idiots. OK, still maybe close to realistic, but how about this alternative (based on suggestions by previuos posts) - you can make an untrained attack which only has to beat an opposed roll by the opponent - thus the two gents in the mall would hit each other about half the time. However, this kind of attack does much less damage - maybe 1d3 plus 1, or something along those lines. I realize that the term "meaningful damage" has been used, meaning that, OK, you might be "hitting" even when you miss, but you messed it up so bad it didn't hurt. This goes back to the old Armor Class rules of D&D, if you recall. I think it's more entertaining to actually get the hit, but know that it's going to be weak, at best. Also, if the same kid comes up against Chuck Norris, Chuck gets to use his entire martial arts specialization to add to his roll, meaning the kid has even less chance than he would of trying to do a "trained" strike roll with a difficulty of 8. You could also add your basic unarmed combat skill, so that, going back to the Starfleet example, the doc forgets his combat training and just swings wildly - he gets coordination plus 1 point for basic unarmed combat, but he only has to beat the Ensign's basic coordination, plus his martial arts skill.
For the most part i think this kind of rule would almost never come up, but it still might be nice to appease those who have problems with the high difficulty rolls.

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Lt. Frank Torpor
U.S.S. James T. Kirk

Have you ever watched 2 untrained kids fight. It is most pathetic. Usually the one who wins is the one who gets the lucky punch in first. This would be consistent with the higher attributes being more likely to hit than one with lower attributes. Generally when untrained people get into fights they are more likely to get in close and grapple with the opponent than stand and have a "proper" battle. I believe that unarmed combat in the ICON system is fairly accurate as it gives those skilled in the area more chances of success with difficult combinations and manueveurs. Untrained personnel can still hit but you don't want to get into a situation where you have to fight, doing so and you deserve everything you get.