I need a better bad.

After listening to what Mr. Durall had to say in my Giant Spiders thread and my own reckoning, I need a better 4th Age enemy that Shelob come Morlob.

She will make an excellent Lieutenant (transformed into human guise) and the whole stealing of the Silmaril will work when used along the mindset of forging a NEW ring of power (with the power of the Silmaril poured into it, laong with hate, etc...) but I need a good Enemy.

Help?

I man this guys (or gal) has to be on the level of Morgoth or Sauron... Not a Saruman or a Wormtounge...

Any thoughts gang?

I don't think Tolkien described any other evil characters at the power level of Morgoth or Sauron. But a powerful villain such as the Mouth of Sauron, using the power of a Silmaril, might be able to overcome the power that keeps Morgoth himself in the Outer Darkness.

Gandalf himself would probably soil his robes at the thought of Morgoth's return.

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Originally posted by AslanC
I man this guys (or gal) has to be on the level of Morgoth or Sauron... Not a Saruman or a Wormtounge...

Any thoughts gang?

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If you even remotely want to stick close to the canon, you're not going to have a creature at their level. It'll have to be something less powerful. Some good candidates would be either or both of the Blue Wizards, maybe a Balrog of some sort, or perhaps a similar but new creature that's been dormant for ages and is ready to come back...

there is a proposed character from the begining of a 4th Age story Tolkien started (but quit after only a few pages).

I am going to read it over, but it might have what I need :)

Okay the 4th Age story fragment "The New Shadow" speaks of three specific characters...

Borlas - Possible grandson or great-grandson of Beregond. He is an older man when the story starts, at the end of his career. He is the one who detects the "Satanic Cult" that is inspiring "Orcish" behaiviour in some of Gondor's youth.

Saelon - Freind of Borlas' son and the one who invites him to a secret meeting of the cult, possibly to kill him.

Herumor (Quenya for "Dark Lord") - Supposedly the leader of the cult, but we have no more details on him, and I assume Herumor is a psedonom, and he would be someone the heroes would encounter and not realize is also the new Enemy. Sort of a Senator Palpatine/Darth Sidius sort of thing.

Now I can use this stuff.

Now since the Satanic Cult is possibly Morgoth/Melkor worship, it might tie in nicely to have Herumor's goal be the rescue of the big M from the Outer Void where he was cast.

A Silmaril and a Ring of Power might just be the tickets for that kind of Mojo.

Using Shelob (transformed by magics as a human female of gothic beauty) he can spread the influence of the cult where ever he wants.

Men are so dumb when dealing with women ;)

Okay those are my intial thoughts.

Comments? Ideas?

Suggestions?

Oh I forgot, Borlas could be at Rivendell when the players arrive, trying to learn more about the cult and this Herumor.

Saelon would make an excellent Lieutenant, situation as an advisor to young King Darion (Eldarion to his mother's people). That way he could try and encourage the King to make poor choices that could lead to his overthrow.

With Shelob creating strike in Arnor, and Darion making bad choices in Gondor, the Reunited Kingdom becomes a non-player when the shite hits the fan. This would make an excellent way of neutralizing their armies, without risking valuable troops.

Could also provide and impertous for the Princes of Ithilien and Dol-Amroth to be the ones who are trying to warn of the New Shadow and such.

Sorry just got to typing out loud as it were. :)

Earendil the Mariner still sails along the ramparts of the Timeless Void in his hallowed ship Vingilot, a silmaril bound to his brow, and guards against the return of Morgoth. The cultists are going to have to neutralize Earendil, the evening star, if they hope to return Morgoth to Middle Earth.

I'm not sure I'd want to make PCs a part of that battle, but the disappearance of the evening star could be an omen of Bad Days Ahead.

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Originally posted by Sarge
Earendil the Mariner still sails along the ramparts of the Timeless Void in his hallowed ship Vingilot, a silmaril bound to his brow, and guards against the return of Morgoth. The cultists are going to have to neutralize Earendil, the evening star, if they hope to return Morgoth to Middle Earth.

I'm not sure I'd want to make PCs a part of that battle, but the disappearance of the evening star could be an omen of Bad Days Ahead.

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Now that is very very very interesting. I could really use it as a foreshadowing and stuff.

I just need to figure out what the Evening Star is first ;)

On a side note Sarge, you are right up there with guys like Durall and Landmark on your obscure Tolkien knowledge :)

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Originally posted by AslanC
I just need to figure out what the Evening Star is first ;)

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I don't know what it is either. :cool: But a quick search on Google ('evening star astronomy') brought up a site saying this:

Evening star or morning star, planet that becomes visible in the western sky shortly after sunset or in the eastern sky shortly before sunrise. It can usually be seen in twilight, when it is too light for the true stars to be seen. Venus and Mercury are often seen as evening or morning stars. Other planets, especially Mars and Jupiter, may appear as evening or morning stars at certain points in their orbits.

No idea if that's the same thing at all. :)

Hmm... I think I read somewhere that JRRT intended Earendil and his Silmaril to be his mythology's evening star, which we know is Venus. I could be mistaken.

If the details of Earendil aren't fresh in your mind, just skim the last chapter of The Silmarillion, The Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath.

I am sure that the Phial of Galadriel contained the light of Earendil's Silmaril. We all know how giant spiders and creatures of darkness respond to that.

So we are all in agreement then, the evening Star is like our Venus. But in this case is an Elf (Arwen's grand-dad to be exact) with a Silmaril on his brow.

Now how would they take him out? That seems like a feat of epic level.

Okay I just had a thought.

If the Mouth of Sauron's fate was never discerened... Couldn't he be my Herumor?

The Mouth was a sorceror and a Black Nuemenorian yes?

Strange ideas hit me as I reread LOTR.

Imagine the Mouth of Sauron fled into the East.

There he bided his time and worked to hide himself and his loyal followers from King Elessar and the King Eldarion.

About 40 years ago, maybe longer, maybe less... King Eldarion sent an expedition into the east to learn the fate of the Blue Wizards. This expedition was lead by Dolomir (dusky-jewel), distant relation of Boromir and Faramir.

The expedition was beset by the Mouth and his loyal agents and those in the party who would not be corrupted by the sorceror were killed.

Using magics to appear as Dolomir, Herumor (the mouth) has returned to Minas Tirith (with his loyal men), bringing news of the quest.

He has returned with only one of the Blue Wizards, one killed by the other when he proved to be uncorrupptable.

'What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211).

Alatar would be the one returning. I like that name better than Pallando. Regardless, in return for the success of the mission Dolomir (Herumor) requests that he take his men, along with Alatar and head into Mordor to "cleanse" it once and for all. The goal to be bringing it in as the third jewel of the reunited Kingdom. Arnor to the north, Gondor in the south and Mordor to the east. In return for this act, he will be made Steward of Mordor. Of course Saelon, one of King Daerion's advisors would support this idea.

This, of course, is all designed as a way for Herumor to work in peace. Without the prying eyes of the King on him while he and Alatar seek to release Morgoth from the void.

Not everything is as they planned. At some point someone would arrive from the East with proof that Dolomir is dead. Perhaps one of his men or an Easterner who was a pupil of Pallando. Seeing the corruption taking foot in Gondor, he (or she) would seek out the PCs to enlist their aide in stopping Herumor.

Wow, that was longer than I expected. :)

So does it sound crazy?

We should all be so crazy. :)

If Herumor/Mouth is impersonating Dolomir, that opens up possibilities for portents. Surely someone who knew Dolomir before the expedition would wonder why he didn't seem quite the same after his return. Is it possible that one or two of your PCs knew him way back when? Maybe you could run a kind of flashback scene to establish who he was and create a relationship with one of the older characters in the group.

Good thinking Sarge, my only problem is timing. Unless I only have him dispatched like 15 years ago or so.

Something more recent.

I just had an idea for how they could take out Earendil. First they recover the Silmaril from the sea. Since Herumor is most likely Black Numenorean, he ought to be able to gather a fleet of Corsairs of Umbar (also descended from Black Numenoreans). With the power of the recovered Silmaril, they can sail to the edge of the world and wait for Earendil to pass over them. Again using the Silmaril, they call up all the waves of the seas and pile them up into an enormous mountain of water that lifts the fleet up high enough to attack Earendil.

It's possible that Herumor could end up with two Silmarils if he could pull that off. If he found the third, he might have enough power to split Arda wide open. The PCs better make sure that doesn't happen.

I'd say that the Silmaril of air ought to be retrieved and returned to the skies at the end of the adventure. Permanently losing the evening star is too big a change in the world, IMO. Whether or not Earendil and his ship Vingilot still bear the jewel afterwards is up to you. Personally, I can think of worse ways to retire a PC than to make him or her the new evening star.

Wow that is pretty Epic.

And cool too.

A mountain of water eh? Neat idea.

Still it might be a bit over the heads of the players if they get that far. I mean we are talking about primal forces here.

I need the threat of this kind of stuff, but if I were to carry through with it then things would be seriously on a high powered note.

Still it is worth thinking about.

Thanks for the thoughts :)

Okay I am now thinking I might be over complicating things...

I mean here is my bad guy list.

From top to bottom...

Herumor (Mouth of Sauron)
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Alatar (working with Herumor)
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Shelob (made human) - Saelon - Carangul the Red

Should I eliminate the middle man and just make Alatar Herumor? Lose the whole Mouth of Sauron angle?

Or even go one step further and make Dolomir (who Herumor pretends to be) actually be Herumor, who has been corrupted in the East and taken on the mantle of Herumor for himself?

Should I include Alatar in this mess at all?

Shelob, Saelon and Carangul are all set piece villains, so not so bad... But I think I might be getting top-heavy.

Guidence?

In an effort to cut down on threads, can the mods attach this thread to this one?

http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread...&threadid=8790

If not possible, can all posters just move replies from here to there?

Thanks guys.

Well, Aslan, if you think you'll want to run another campaign after this one, you might want to keep some bad guys in reserve for the next adventure. :)

I agree that the mountain of water and battle of Silmarils would be epic. That might be something to save for the end of a long-term campaign, when the PCs are ready to deal with some serious threats just before they go on to a well-earned retirement.

Another campaign? LOL! I don't think so Tim ;)

Seriously... that would be more than enough. I am having a hard enough time figuring out one.

No the more I think about it, the Mouth of sauron, while a nice idea, is too much.

I need to scale that back and just make it Alatar as Dolomir/Herumor.

Shelob and Saelon remain though, as Lieutenants and Carangul the Red as a Saurman type of uneasy ally for Herumor.

You know if you want big bad you could always use Thuringwethil the messenger of Morgoth. She used to run around as a bat a lot, but nobody knows what happened to her.

Maybe Sauron's death woke her up & she is out doing evil things again. She is not quite a Sauron threat without a ring, but she is still a big threat & allows you to bring in a new name.