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Okay so we have;
Gandalf the Grey (come White in Two Towers)
Saruman the White (come Many Colours in Fellowship of the Ring)
Rhadgast the Brown
Two unnamed (?) of Blue
Is that it?
Did Tolkien specifically state that this was all there was, or could there be others?
In my game Belengol will become Belengol the Red when he becomes a full on Wizard.
But what about a Green or a Black? :)
Any thoughts gang?
I believe the Blue Wizards may have been named something like Pallando and Allatar, I've heard many people mention them here on the boards. I probably misspelled their names, I'm sure someone will correct me and will be good. :)
I'd say the five Wizards you mentioned would be the only ones that came over to Middle-earth in... um... whatever year they came over. ;) (I think possibly TA 1000 or so, but don't take my word for it!)
So saying... I think it'd be a fine idea to think of more Wizards being sent over and possibly becoming corrupted (or helping the party!). I wouldn't have one called Black, that just bodes ill to start with :D but I think Green and Red would be great ideas... maybe Green stays true and aids the party whilst Red becomes evil and hinders the party.
Anyway, just my thoughts. :)
See I figure everyone would expect the Black to be evil, but he wouldn't be. :)Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
I wouldn't have one called Black, that just bodes ill to start with :D but I think Green and Red would be great ideas... maybe Green stays true and aids the party whilst Red becomes evil and hinders the party.
I LOVE the idea of Belengol getting tempted and turning on the party!
I hadn't even thought of that :)
Great thinking man :)
Yeah, the Blue Wizards were named Alatar and Pallando in the Histories of ME and Unfinished Tales. I think Tolkien had other names for them too, but I'd have to look them up.
Other wizards could be neat, esp. since Tolkien was pretty vague. A powerful magician in ME could try to pass himself off as a Valar, I suppose. Call himself "Wesley the Chartreuse" or summat. :D
LOL... No Wesley in my LOTR game :p
Any ideas on how to name Valor?
I need to name one for Black and Green.
Suggestions?
"You're the dread pirate Roberts, admit it!"Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
LOL... No Wesley in my LOTR game :p
"With pride!"
;)
I believe most of the wizards had many names... for example, Saruman = Curunir (Man of Skill), Radagast = Aiwendil (Bird Tamer), Gandalf = Mithrandir (Grey Pilgrim).Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC Any ideas on how to name Valor? I need to name one for Black and Green. Suggestions? [/B]
So at least one of their names should be Elvish (a language which, from what I've seen, you have a worthy command of :cool:).
The other name I believe has no meaning what-so-ever. The name Gandalf was taken from the same Old Norse poem, Voluspá (The Prophecy of the Seeress), that the names of the Dwarves were taken from, so you may want to try looking at that (either on the internet or from the place that I got it... the annotated Hobbit :D).
Here's two paragraphs from the Voluspá:
Vigg and Gandalf, Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath, - now I have told -
Regin and Rathsvith - the list alright.
Fili, Kili, Fundin, Nali,
Heptifili, Hannar, Sviur,
Frar, Hornbori, Fraeg and Loni,
Aurvang, Jari, Eikinskjaldi.
So that's the kind of names in the poem. :) You might try subtly altering them (as Tolkien did of many) or joining syllables from different words (like taking Vindalf, which sounds too much like Gandalf, and Rathsvith, which sounds too much like Radagast, and joining the Vin and Svith to make Vinsvith).
Anyway, good luck!
P.S. My thought about the wizard turning on the party really wasn't too original if you think about it... Saruman rather did that. :D But still, it may be more of an immediate threat to your party, or he may turn in a totally different way. ;)
I will indeed have to come up with elvish names for the last of the lot.
Thinking of using Carangul from the LOTR Core book.
That leaves me with Belengol the Green (now), Carangul the Red and Wírilomë (have to masculanize that) the Black.
Should they have sent 5 as before?
If so, the color spectrum is getting limited again, and I don't want to reuse brown, white, blue and grey.
So wtih black, red and green, what else works?
Yellow sounds weird and gold is a metal so I should avoid that.
Purple, see yellow. Violet is a flower, so I might avoid that as well.
Grrrr.
Any thoughts?
Lina the Pink
(From Slayers)
Rizzo the Lime Green
(And you thought Pink was bad)
____ the Navy Blue
(Black was taken)
Gee what an enormous help you were :pQuote:
Originally posted by Mitchell
Lina the Pink
(From Slayers)
Rizzo the Lime Green
(And you thought Pink was bad)
____ the Navy Blue
(Black was taken)
I don't think any wizard/Wizard could pass himself off as a Vala in the Third Age. Any of the Wise should know immediately that he wasn't one, especially Galadriel because she's LIVED amoung them.
Few amoung Men even know who the Valar ARE, with the exception of the Dunedain. Most of the other races of Men have other names for the Valar, or consider them gods. A savvy wizard/Wizard might be able to pass themselves off as an emissary of the 'gods' or MAYBE as a 'god' themself, if the folk were REALLY gullible.
If you are want to create more Istari (i.e. Maiar sent to ME), there's a bit of wiggle room as Tolkien referred to the 5 Istari we know of as 'Heads of their Order". I'd probably consider that flirting with the edges of canon, though.
If you do decide to do this. The 5 Istari had Quenya names in Valinor, and then received other names in ME (Sindarin, Westron, etc.).
Curumo (same meaning as Curunir), Olorin ("Dreamer", Gandalf), Aiwendil (Radagast), Alatar, and Pallando are all Quenya names (given in Valinor, presumably).
Curunir ("cunning/skilled one', Saruman) and Mithrandir are Sindarin names (given in Middle Earth).
Radagast is apparently Adunaic for 'tender of beasts' (given in Middle Earth)
Istari is what I meant. Maiar to be exact as the parent race, parented by the Valar correct?
See this is why I could never finish the Silmarillion. ;)
Yes indeed the idea is to have new Istari come from Valinor in the 4th Age, so as to sheppard the last days of the Elves and other fantastic creatures and bring in the new age of men.
Still that doens't mean it is all gonna work out fine ;)
Now where oh where can someone find an Adunaic dictionary?
Also I haven't noticed a big dif between Quenyan and Sindaran. Any links or places that can point them out?
Maiar are 'Lesser' Valar, but not children of them. Both the Valar and the Maiar were together Ainur "Holy Ones" before the world was made. 'Valar' was the name given to the greatest Ainur who descended into Arda, they're the "Powers of the World", personifying the most fundemental forces of Arda. The Maiar were presumably much more numerous (there were only 12 Valar, and then Melkor), but they're exact number was not known. They are almost like 'sub-Valar' in that they are associated with smaller aspects of the World, subsets of a given Vala's dominion.
Languages:
http://www.ardalambion.com
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm
These sites are chock full of links, take your time and don't get overwhelmed.
Probably 80% of the elvish names in the books are Sindarin. Sindarin has different rules, notable 'lenition' ("softening") of certain consonents, and vowels changing to represent plurals, etc.
This site has helped my Sindarin a lot:
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_intro.htm
Good luck.
You can actually get a lot just out of the first few chapters, fwiw. Pretty much everything it contains on the Valar and Maiar is early on in the book. It's not as bad as everyone says it is, you just have to take your time and visualize what you're reading.
Adunaic that I useQuote:
Originally posted by AslanC
Istari is what I meant. Maiar to be exact as the parent race, parented by the Valar correct?
See this is why I could never finish the Silmarillion. ;)
Yes indeed the idea is to have new Istari come from Valinor in the 4th Age, so as to sheppard the last days of the Elves and other fantastic creatures and bring in the new age of men.
Still that doens't mean it is all gonna work out fine ;)
Now where oh where can someone find an Adunaic dictionary?
Also I haven't noticed a big dif between Quenyan and Sindaran. Any links or places that can point them out?
About all that I have been able to find. There are a couple of good Adunaic name lists from the Decipher board. One by Colin Chapman, I think. The other, I can't remember the author.
By the way, the Maiar are of the same race as the Valar, the Ainur. The Maiar are just lesser powered .
:)
Manveru? You spying over my shoulder or something? :D
You know what I'm going to say and type it faster. I wonder if one of those Nazgul rings have been found. I think I know what powers it gives. :D
*hides Palantir*
Doo de doo ...
Okay so the Valar --- > Maiar ---> Istari? Or are the Maiar and the Istari the same level?
1) Eru
2) Valar
3) Maiar
4) Istari (Maiar bound to mortal form, thus they are reduced in Power while in Endor as an Istari)
The Istari ARE Maiar, but they've accepted the adoption of mortal form (until their task is done), and the restriction on expressions of Power. It's certainly POSSIBLE that an Istari could expression some degree of power as a Maia, but that would go against their directive, so they don't, or they use a LOT of descretion.
When Gandalf confronted Bilbo regarding the Ring after the Birthday Party, Gandalf also 'pulled back his mantle', revealing a bit of the Maia majesty that is merely cloaked by his Mortal Form. But that's as far as the Istari should ever go, unless, well, unless they're staring down the throat of a Balrog or something, which doesn't leave them much choice with regards to refraining from exuberant expressions of Power. ;-)
Okay so I am not %100 clear on the dif between an Istari and a Maiar (say like Balrog).
The Encylopedia of Arda says...
"Istari - The order of Wizards, the Maiar who came to Middle-earth after the first millennium of the Third Age. Of these, five came to the northwestern regions; Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. "
"Maiar - Of the many spirits that descended into Arda at its beginning, those of lesser stature than the Valar, though they were still powerful, were known as Maiar. Each of the Maiar was attached to the 'people' of a particular Vala. So, for example, the Maia Ossë, as a spirit of the sea, belonged to the people of Ulmo, while Curumo, the Maia who came to Middle-earth as Saruman, belonged to the people of Aulë the Smith.
In the Third Age, there were still Maiar in physical form to be found in Middle-earth. The most important of these were Saruman, Sauron (originally also of Aulë's people), and Olórin, known as Gandalf, who belonged to the people of Manwë and Varda."
So this leads me to some level of confusion...
Exactly?
Well you have made a difference between Istari and maiar, but it seems that they are just names for the same thing.
Or at least that what it appears to be.
I don't want to make the mistake of say calling Carangul a Maiar when he should be called an Istari, or vice versa.
Obvioulsy when I made my earlier faux pas with the Valar thing, I don't want to make a repeat.
The Istari are a sub-set of Maia. They were tasked for a particular purpose: to counsel and inspire the Free Peoples of Middle Earth to resist Sauron. They were forbidden to match power with Sauron directly, and instructed not to use their might and power to bend any to their will.
"Normal" Maiar are not bound to a physical form. The Istart were bound to the 'mortal coil', until their task was done (and Sauron defeated). Nearly all "Normal" Maiar ceased to openly roam Middle Earth before the First Age.
The Istari, the Enemies (Sauron, the Balrogs, maybe Shelob, by inheritance from Ungoliant, could be counted), and (possibly) others like Tom Bombadil and the Great Eagles were different from "Normal" Maiar, because:
A) They resided in Middle Earth after the First Age
B) They were bound to their forms, the Enemies by the way they used their Will to increase their power over the world, the Istari because of their mission, and the others .. who knows, some may even have been able release their Fana (mortal form) at will.
Does this help?
Immensly :)Quote:
Originally posted by Manveru
Does this help?
Thanks for taking the time to walk me through it. :)
Hey, why don't we get in touch some time, I've got an old palantir sitting in my basement, we could have a little chat about the game? ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Manveru
*hides Palantir*
Doo de doo ...
ME TOO!Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
Hey, why don't we get in touch some time, I've got an old palantir sitting in my basement, we could have a little chat about the game? ;)
It's right next to my Interocitor...
[starts rummaging]
let's see.... Green Lantern Corps ring... Carmamilk secret... Map tp king Solomon's Mines.... Tic-Tac with some lint on it... AH!
Here it is!
No wait... that's just a Magic 8-Ball
[Shakes Ball vigorously]
Will I find my Palantir today?
"Outlook is cloudy"
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Stupid round thing.
*peers deeply into the cloudy cool depths of his Palantir (in the bathroom next to the sink)*
*brows furrow, thoughts focus, eyes seeking, thoughts reaching out ... speaking words from afar .....*
"Breaker-breaker, copy 10-4 ...*