Weariness in gameplay?

One aspect (among many) that I find vague is Weariness in LotR, and yesterday we had a session and I didn't know how to apply the weariness at all.

I have read somewhere, and can't find it now, that you make a test after a combat/battle usually and otherwise you do it according to the time intervalls in the book, or am I wrong?

In this case the characters was traveling från Bree to Trollshaws during night time, on horseback (most of them have a light or medium load), and where heading in the depths of Trollshaws to a lair where a number of bandits are located.

It should take about 1 week on foot, so approx 3,5 days on horse.

Should i check for Weariness when they have traveled all the way or at intervalls on the journey so that they have a chance to rest and recover weariness and then keep on going?

At the bandits location in trollshaws, the characters approached the lair and 2 guards, and fought for a couple of rounds, and are now hiding them before entering the cavesystem.

Should I make a weariness test now again after the combat?

What about if they sneak around investigating and then another combat pops up? Should they make a new weariness test again then?

Love to hear some input on how to handlethese weariness situations so to get a grip on how to handle it in the future.

I don't use Weariness unless there's a potential need for it. A group of heroes travelling through the day and then camping for the night isn't something I'd ask to make Weariness rolls on, unless I had planned for a combat that night or if a random encounter came up or something.

If the heroes are doing something strenuous, I'll use the rules in the book to judge when to make the heroes roll.

There's one thing I'm not sure about, and that's Weariness related to combat. The book says that it takes 10 minutes of combat before having to make Weariness checks, but I've never had a combat run for that long.

If we assume a combat round is about 6 seconds of time, it would take 60 rounds of combat before a hero had to make a Weariness check.

I'm thinking of requiring a Weariness check at the end of every combat. Thoughts?

The Weariness check after combat rule is something I've been debating for my game as well. I feel that it would emphasize the non-combat resolutions appropriate in a Tolkien-flavored game.

I have yet to start a game (and may not yet, since my friends seem to be having a falling out at the moment), but have thoroughly enjoyed designing the chronicle despite the clarifications, corrections and vagueness needed to make the game work.

Ineti, I do aggre with you that traveling and so on would work without checking for weariness as it slows the speed of the game down to much, but i guess that if there is a suprise attack on the players and that they have been traveling för 10 horus (or somethng else) then they shoud check for weariness before the combat begins as they might be a bit tired.

When it comes to combat, that is the most baffling thing that I discovered too, that it takes 10 minutes before making a check.

I'm planning to have the players roll a check after each combat, but maybe at TN 5 for 5 rounds, TN 10 for 10 rounds and so on, if it is a short combat that is.

If its a battle that lasts for hours I will of course go with what the book says instead.

What do you think about something like that?

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Originally posted by jorgen_grundstr
What do you think about something like that?

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Your ideas are sound.

I was thinking of changing it so that there has to be a weariness check after 10 rounds rather than 10 minutes, but I'm not sure if that's too harsh or not. I'll have to think on it some more.

Once again, it's time for Sarge to speak up with some SCA experience. :D

A few months ago, I was introduced to a sword and shield endurance drill. The idea is to stand with your foot planted about a foot away from your opponent's foot. You don't move from that location. Both of you fight, disregarding any blows that land, for one minute. You'd be amazed at how hard it is to keep up a good fight for one minute straight, even for trained and experienced fighters.

OTOH, in a normal battle, you're not swinging the sword every single second. I've been in resurrection battles that lasted for an hour. At the end of the hour, you can expect to be dog-tired, but you ought to still be able to fight effectively.

So, how often you roll for weariness should vary according to how intense the action is. That's definitely a judgement call for the GM.

Agreed, Sarge. When I went for my ASFD actor/combatant certification a while back, we had a seven minute fight choreographed with a rapier/dagger fight, a hand to hand fight, and a two-handed broadsword fight interspersed with far-too-brief beats to catch our breath.

It was seven minutes of pure hell. I'm guessing real combat is worse.

The way things are written, the only time I can see weariness coming into play is during a big mass battle like Helm's Deep, where you're fighting hundreds or thousands of mooks.

Of course, I'd never play out every round of that. I'd probably abstract it to a die roll accounting for 10 minutes of combat, have them make a weariness check, another die roll to see how the next 10 minutes of combat went, make another weariness check, etc.

So, either we need to make up a system to handle hugemongous battles like that, or the time threshold for weariness checks needs to be changed. Maybe every 10 rounds of combat rather than 10 minutes?

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Originally posted by Florin
So, either we need to make up a system to handle hugemongous battles like that, or the time threshold for weariness checks needs to be changed. Maybe every 10 rounds of combat rather than 10 minutes?

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Good ideas, florin. I was thinking more in terms of individual or small group combat, as opposed to mass combats on the scale of Helm's Deep.

I was also thinking of changing it from 10 minutes to 10 rounds, but now I wonder what I'd do with a character that specifically didn't do any fighting. What if a hero hides in the brush while her comrades battle? Does she have to make a Weariness check after 10 rounds?

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Originally posted by Ineti
Good ideas, florin. I was thinking more in terms of individual or small group combat, as opposed to mass combats on the scale of Helm's Deep.

I was also thinking of changing it from 10 minutes to 10 rounds, but now I wonder what I'd do with a character that specifically didn't do any fighting. What if a hero hides in the brush while her comrades battle? Does she have to make a Weariness check after 10 rounds?

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Well this just came to me and I haven't tried it, but how about a activity die? It would work great if you had some D10s laying around, but you could use 2D6 also.

The basic idea is that you would have the players increment the die by 1 everyround that they perform extreme or combat manuevers. Every 2 rounds that they don't perform combat manuevers they decrement it by 1. Once the die/dice equal 10 then they make a weariness test.

Rinse and repeat

Could also do this with spare area on the character sheet but I dont like to do so much erasing and such.

Just a thought.

I haven't really trawled The Hobbit anything like as thoroughly as I have LOTR, but one thing that's frequently struck me of late is how much attention Tolkien gives to (a) the morale and (b) the fitness/wearniess of the company: Bilbo and the Dwarves.

Bog-standard FRP gives players the sense of how far they've travelled in getting somewhere (usually base town - dungeon - base town) by how many random monster attacks they've had to sustain on the journey. Tolkien's narratives do it by adding descriptive detail, but no RPG can thrive on GM narrative alone -- there have to be rolls for the players. And I think Morale and Weariness rolls are an ideal way to do it.

Of course they shouldn't bog down the gaming with an endless succession of points lost and promptly regained before there's even been a roll based on them, but there's engagement and dramatic tension to be had from watching those penalties mount up, and watching the players starting to get nervous.

(I like the dice idea, if you have a nice big, clear table top on which to game. But I use pennies as tokens, doled out and taken back as necessary. The fact that a "penny" stands for a "penalty" also just makes nice, easy sense to everyone.)

Without having even played the LOTR RPG rules, I think the 10 minute interval's probably reasonable for pitched battles, because of the constant manoeuvring for position and even the heightened pitch of adrenaline and nervous vigilance. It's probably fair to use this for all action in the 'dungeon' environment, or within the sphere of influence of hostile potential combatants. Most people would be likely to want to find a safe place and hole up for a few minutes every now and again under such circumstances.

I'd say that 10 minutes was fair again for representing the Weariness this unfit re-enactor accrues in an afternoon of running around in chainmail and swinging a full-weight combat-blunt steel sword and a shield (which is lighter than a 'real' one because our plywood technology is so much better).

But it's direct combat where it matters, where it becomes significant in terms of the drama, and the player's engagement in terms of basing their characters' decisions on Weariness. If the fitter combatant can choose a tactic based on attempting to wear down his opponent to the point where he gets the upper hand, that active involvement is far more dramatically meaningful than if the mechanic is just a thing that drones on in the background. In a toe-to-toe fight with relatively heavy unsophisticated weapons like broadswords or axes against shields, most one-on-one fights were won on fitness as both combatants use their strength and fitness to keep swinging their weapon and responding with their shield, until one has slowed down too much and gets himself hit...

I've always wanted a system that could offer the realistic accumulated effect of fatigue without becoming bogged down in round-by-round book-keeping in tiny incremements. Sadly I've always felt that the only way this can happen is when you surrender all the book-keeping to a computer, and that sadly spoils the atmosphere of face-to-face gaming for me. (I look forward to a time when everyone will have their character sheets on infrared-linked PDAs!)
Maybe one roll per x number of rounds (based on your current encumbrance state) as tracked by the pips on a die or the accumulation of pennies is the best way forward!

Just a thought, when I wrestled in High School, then later had some HTH combat training in the Army, its very tiring. In wrestling, we would go for a minute or two, take a short break, then go for a minute or two, take a break, and finish with another minute or two. By the time that 6 minutes is over, even with the breaks, I was exhausted. We trained for this kind of work extensively. My personal oppinion, such that it is, is to have a Weariness test after every minute. One other thing, when you're moving through terrain where you're not sure who is in control (e.g. being patrolled by the enemy), it's very tiring as well. There is no safe place. Someone, or several someones have to be on guard all the time. I would rule that if you're traveling in Rhudaur or the Trollshaws, even southern Mirkwood, the terrain also would affect you. Vis-a-vis, the subtle magic of Middle-earth. Using the Peril Test idea presented elsewhere for other than Moria, would also be appropriate. Imagine, you're traveling stealthily through the Trollshaws for 4 hours. Think about what you're doing, what's going on around you. Even experienced warriors will be expending an enormous amount of energy making sure everyone stays together, no one makes any excess noise. You can easily wear yourself out that way. I would rule that for every Peril Test, you should also make a Weariness Test as well.
Just my humble opinion.

I have been reading your posts on Weariness tests in combat. Here are my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em:

For large scale battles, where one turn equals ten minutes, the core book's rule is okay.

For small, one on one battles, what my players call "skirmishes", try basing your weariness checks on the individual's Stamina. For example, an Elf with a Stamina modifier of 4 would make a Weariness check every 4 rounds, a Hobbit with a Stamina of 2 would make one every 2 rounds, etc. The idea being that someone with more stamina would tire out less quickly.

For the first check, the TN is 5, for the second, TN10, and so on, increasing the TN by 5 every time.

The problem with such a rule is that you 'punish' the characters with a lower stamina twice as hard. They have a lower chance of succeeding, and they have to roll more often.

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Originally posted by Meneltin
The problem with such a rule is that you 'punish' the characters with a lower stamina twice as hard. They have a lower chance of succeeding, and they have to roll more often.

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And Meneltin is very sensitive to Weariness issues, especially about poor characters getting punished by it. ;)

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Originally posted by Meneltin
The problem with such a rule is that you 'punish' the characters with a lower stamina twice as hard. They have a lower chance of succeeding, and they have to roll more often.

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You can use this system to give your PCs a needed "shove" when they refuse to quit the fight no matter the odds.

Take Balin's Tomb in the FotR. The Fellowship only fought because they had no other options. Once an "out" was given to them, they ran. Use this system when you have PCs in a similar situation and you need them to go. Just give them a little "shove".

You can play with the TNs until you find something you are comfortable with. The ones I gave were just a starting point to work from. Just go with a guideline of, let's say, every 5 rounds make a weariness check, and increase the TN every time.

As a balance to this, give the PCs the option of "catching their breath". Let them sit out a number of rounds(your choice) to regain a Weariness Level. Maybe 2 rounds for 1 level, or whatever seems appropriate to you. This will also force the others to pick up the slack, which in turn, may provide another little "shove" for them to get out.

I personally don't punish characters for any short combats, but I'll go ahead and add my viewpoint to this issue.

I'm not exactly the healthiest fellow-I'm resilient, sure, but I've had bronchitis every year of the past seven or so, which I suspect has affected my stamina a bit.

About a year back, I participated in a Korean martial art. We did a fair amount of endurance training, but the system is focused on joint manipulations and things such as that. We would spar at least once a month, and practice groundfighting/wrestling about once a week. During these groundfighting classes, we would spend about half an hour actually wrestling: about two minutes, then you switch partners and start again until everyone had gone against everyone else with similar ability several times. Despite my inadequacies, after a half-hour of groundfighting I would be fatigued in only a very minor way; a few minutes of light exercise would have me back to normal and ready for more. In this style, as mentioned, we also had sparring. Normal sparring matches would last about the same amount of time, close to two minutes. After this, we would be getting fairly winded and be slowing down a little bit.

However!-I wasn't one of the top students. Three guys in my class would spar with some of the more advanced fellows in the adult class. The instructor would simply pit them against each other and tell them to go at it for fifteen, thirty, or fourty-five minutes. To say the least, they didn't -begin- at 45 minutes, but they got there. And this endurance training is something we would work at for perhaps 2 hours a week: far, far fewer hours than someone travelling and adventuring constantly.

I believe that Weariness is an essential tool for Narrators to control the characters abilities. As we all know, CODA can create some very strong characters from the onset, so having the Weariness there to help limit is very important.

I use the Weariness chart and the base time frames given for the different levels of activity - although ten minutes of Extreme Activity is a bit much in my opinion. As Ineti stated earlier, I use a 10 round base for Weariness tests that are from Extreme Activity.

But Weariness in travel is essential as well. In my current campaign, my characters have been traveling for weeks from Tharbad to the Ettenmoors. Being in a saddle, under a baking sun, and eating only trail rations would begin to take its toll on the heartiest of persons.

What I do is break the day up into five 2 hour travel periods that require a test per period. The TN may vary based on terrain and environmental conditions. If a character does not succeed with his first three test (and thus be reduced to Weary -4) then he must stop for that days travel. This can be important in chronicles that require time constraints.

Also, each day I require a Survival test - again, the TN may vary based on terrain and environmental conditions - to assure proper rest for the night. If failed, the characters suffer a -3 modifier to that days Weariness tests (only). This modifier can be cumulative for each day the Survival test is failed, but will be eliminated with a night of good rest.

That is how I tie Weariness into the days of each chapter. It is great watching my warrior get off his horse for that days travel and have a -2 Tired modifier - it makes those Orcs a little bit more of a concern. :D

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For small, one on one battles, what my players call "skirmishes", try basing your weariness checks on the individual's Stamina. For example, an Elf with a Stamina modifier of 4 would make a Weariness check every 4 rounds, a Hobbit with a Stamina of 2 would make one every 2 rounds, etc. The idea being that someone with more stamina would tire out less quickly.

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I've also been looking at a way to implement Weariness into combat and have to say that I like this option. My question is, what if a character happens to have a ±0 or - modifier to their Stamina? Does this possibility sink the idea?

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Originally posted by Pusher
I've also been looking at a way to implement Weariness into combat and have to say that I like this option. My question is, what if a character happens to have a ±0 or - modifier to their Stamina? Does this possibility sink the idea?

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If your Stamina modifier is zero or less, maybe try basing the Weariness test on one of the base attributes (Strength or Vitality, I think). Not the attribute modifier, but the base number.

Hope this helps.

dustin

I would say if you're Stamina were <=1, then you would make a test once per round. I would also say the frequency of tests should be based off a characters base Reaction score as opposed to a modified score due to abilities or traits.

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Originally posted by Scottomir
And Meneltin is very sensitive to Weariness issues, especially about poor characters getting punished by it. ;)

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Hehe, you really work hard to make this though-looking, proud, noble , Boromir-like warrior, only to have him utterly fail his first weariness test when crossing the Misty Mountains and a Hobbit(!) has to save him from falling down a deep ravine.

Can you imagine what that does to your proud and noble warrior? :D