Acquiring Water in Minas Tirith

To anyone who might know:

Is there a description anywhere outthere about how the people of Minas Tirith recieve water? I imagine a series of aqua-ducts (ala ancient rome) that bring water from mountain streams, and snow/rain runnoff into the city. Also, something along these lines could be used if a shallow aquifer were tapped nearby.

Also curious about what sort of "waste water" system, you think they might have incoroporated.


Maybe someone who has the old MERP Minas Tirith book can answer this question.

Thanks,
Reptile

The second Maps of Middle-earth boxed set has a great map of Minas Tirith in it. I recall that there are two reservoirs of water in the town that receive run-off from the mountains, and regularly drain out of the city. I think the booklet with the set may have more info. I'll check when I get home tonight.

As for waste, my uneducated guess would be that they used garderobes and/or dumped it out into the gutters like any medieval city, but that's just a guess. :)

Interesting. I would assume these reservoirs would have to have water channeled into them from somewhere. I would assume the channels (or aqua-ducts) would have to be large enough for a person to fit into (in some capacity) for maintenance purposes. Assuming this is true and depending on how large the channels are, they would be vulnerable. I would suppose they are guarded non--stop.

The sewage disposal is an interesting question as well. Mostly because, if my memory of history is good, the ancient Romans had a more sophisticated means of wast water disposal than most of the later "medieval" cities. Since ME is supposed to describe a "pre-historical" modern europe, I wonder if something similar would be feasible here. Unfortunately, I sometimes get my historical facts messed up.

The reason I ask is because I'm trying to come up with some possible scenarios for an adventure I'm running this weekend. I generally try to come up with interesting situations and build the story around them.

Reptile

Roman cities were extremely well-engineered in terms of water and sewage, and what made them so admirable was their scale: Roman had anywhere from 500,000 to 2 million inhabitants at its height, depending on whose estimates you accept. Roman aqueducts were impressive in scale as well, capable of bridging enormous mountain heights and carrying water from distances many miles away. Water was carried into central reservoirs, and from there funneled off to public fountains and even private homes through a network of piping. (So in times of drought, it was even possible to shut off the private water flow to maintain public supply.) The secrets to the Romans' success (and every pre-modern civilization) was math and gravity--pull water from a high altitude, gradually bring it into an elevated reservoir, and funnel it into lower fountains. As for sewage disposal, ancient techniques were basically the same principle, flushing it into gutter that dumped into a river.

Interestingly, the Romans were far from the first civilization to master plumbing engineering. Archaeological evidence gathered over the past many decades has indicated that the "Minoans" of Crete potentially had plumbing as far back as 1500 BC (I believe this was found in the Knossos palace-citadel). So it terms of what is possible for Minas Tirith, Knossos might be a very viable comparison.

Quite right Knossos did have a rudimentary interior plumbing system, if memory serves it consisted of upper floor "flush" (gravity feed) toilets.

The water system of Ancient Rome brought a supply of water per person into the city not equalled until about 50 years ago.

I would hazard a guess that Minas Tirith probably would use an aquaduct system for a water supply. My question is what kind of pump up system would they use? MT being built out of a mountain itself, at least in the movie, the water would have a ways (re: up) to travel in some cases.

Looks like there is aquadects from a mountain stream to each of the reserviors, but no sign of where it goes after that. one is on the fourth level, one of the first. There is also a fountain with the white tower, so got to be some water supply up there as well. Guessing piping and pumps. from the reservoirs.

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I would hazard a guess that Minas Tirith probably would use an aquaduct system for a water supply. My question is what kind of pump up system would they use?

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If the water was acquired from high altitude mountain streams and runoff, they probably wouldn't need a plumbing system assuming the water was collected at a high enough level in the city. Gravity could probably take care of the water travelling to resevoirs and to residences in the lower levels. Although, perhaps there would have to be many smaller reservoirs throughout the city where folks could pick water up from time to time.

Didn't know that about the Minoans. Cool stuff.

Since a few of you seem to be fairly versed in archeology, did these ancient civilizations have a filtration system for the water? Without knowing, it seems plausible that some sort of mechanical filtration would work. For example, funnelling the water into large tanks with limstone, or sand, along the bottom, which allowed the water to percolate through, being "filtered" as it went, and come out into collecting ducts at the bottom?

I've never really studied that in depth. I would assume that they had some way of filtering out larger contaminants (branches and other floating debris) before it flowed into the resevoirs. Beyond that I'm not sure.

Well, thanks to this thread I did something I never thought I'd do: tear through my bookshelves researching the Roman water distribution system. Apparently what is known about it comes from a first-century account by a Roman writer named Frontinius, who seems to have been an appointed administrator of the water supply (probably a quaestor or public aedile). As much as possible, Roman engineers used ground-level or underground aqueducts, covered in order to keep out debris. Water was carried into the cities into a series of elevated settling and holding reservoirs, before being piped into baths, fountains, and homes. This seems to have been the only filtration system, ciphoning water from settling tanks to holding tanks, possibly raking off any muck first.

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My question is what kind of pump up system would they use? MT being built out of a mountain itself, at least in the movie, the water would have a ways (re: up) to travel in some cases.

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Perhaps some relatively simple mechanical device, such as an Archimedes Screw? After dazzling feats of engineering like Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Isengard, and other places, an Archimedes Screw would be no problem for the Numenorians.

Here is what Bored of the Rings has to day about garbage disposal in Minas Troney ...

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Each ring was proud of its own history and showed its scorn of that beneath it by daily bombardments of refuse, and expressions such as "Let's go seventhing" and "Dahling, don't be so third-level" were common.* [* It is not known upon whom the refuse of the lowest ring was thrown, but it is conjectured that it was not thrown at all, but eaten.]

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Sorry ... I just re-read that parody. After all these years, it still makes me giggle. :)

(And she runs giggling away)

Excellent, Scottomir!

Thanks for the info.

Hey folks. If you're still interested, Tol-Palantir looked this info up in the MERP Minas Tirith Book. It's one of the last posts on the thread at the link below.


http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread...585#post124585

Reptile

Oops. Not "Tol-Palantir", but "Tar-Palantir". Sorry about the typo.

The ancient Persians had a fantastic water distribution system both for their cities and for irrigation. Growing fruit trees in the desert is no mean feat. It remained intact until the Mongols invaded and destroyed it, apparently because the system, underground to prevent evaporation and protect it from sandstorms and such, was large enough to allow troops to move around undetected.

By a very freaky coincidence, the Discovery Channel is currently airing a program called The Seven Wonders of Rome, and the aqueducts are #5. There is like an 8-minute segment on how the Romans build an aqueduct network, actually going inside some of them. But they even mention good ole Frontinus, whom I mentioned previously. However, I have subsequently learned that Frontinus was a former proconul when put in charge of the water supply, not a quaestor or aedile.

The part of Roman Aquaduct engineering that has always fascinated me is that they had to actually go through mountains in places. I know the Romans were excellent engineers, but roads and buildings are one thing, to start digging on both sides of a mountain and to be able to meet up in the middle and still having the necessary incline...using ancient tools and surveying techniques just makes me say...WOW!:cool:

I saw that Seven Wonders of Rome on Sat.
Coincidence, indeed.

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Originally posted by Phantom
The part of Roman Aquaduct engineering that has always fascinated me is that they had to actually go through mountains in places. I know the Romans were excellent engineers, but roads and buildings are one thing, to start digging on both sides of a mountain and to be able to meet up in the middle and still having the necessary incline...using ancient tools and surveying techniques just makes me say...WOW!:cool:

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Then I think you'd really enjoy this Discovery Channel program. They actually demonstrate how this was accomplished, by digging evenly paced vertical shafts down into the hill/mountain and using them like plum-lines to make sure the level passges sync up. Very impressive.

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Originally posted by Scottomir
Then I think you'd really enjoy this Discovery Channel program. They actually demonstrate how this was accomplished, by digging evenly paced vertical shafts down into the hill/mountain and using them like plum-lines to make sure the level passges sync up. Very impressive.

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Yeah, I know I caught most of the show. :cool: Not overly interested in Gladiators, but I did enjoy the rest of "Rome Week" on Discovery, particularly the "Who Killed Caeser."

Yeah, I saw most of those shows. Liked them all alot.

Gotta love the Discovery Channel!

Reptile