Watching "Measure of a Man" today...

And something that the JAG officer said struck me as funny, in light of later events in the series. When they transferred Data to Maddox's facility for their experiment, the JAG officer said that Data could refuse the procedure but not the transfer.

Didn't Riker fight like 2 or 3 transfers/promotions to new ships? And this was before they decided to just say Data was property. So Riker can say no to a transfer but not Data? Or am I not getting a subtle difference in regards to military procedure?

Was Riker ordered to take command of the Aries, or offered the command?

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Was Riker ordered to take command of the Aries, or offered the command?

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Offered.

Riker, as an organic life form was by default assumed to be sapient. Data, as an android, did not have that assumption, though you'd think they would have settled the issue before he went to the Academy. Dialogue in the ep suggests that there was a hearing at that time, but you'd think then that Maddox would not get a "second bite at the apple" in that case.

The differences in orders are what the orders are. Riker was offered a command that would be long and difficult, and as he was a living life form and Data is still a machine with intelligence and feelings of a humans imprinted into to his processor is a machine till the JAG session. In the real world it is like as Picard Reads “requested and required to take command…” sometimes you get the options of this or that and even request an assignment nevertheless usually it is “you go here! You do this!”

Well, I still have trouble with the general idea of Data's backstory: If they thought he was property, why let him go through the Academy? They could have just played all the instructional information on fast-forward and let him absorb it, and then place him on a starship, but basically as a humanoid computer. Why go through all the theater of taking classes, having rank, etc.

I mean, if the Moriarty hologram had decided to join Starfleet, could it? Could the EMH from Voyager? Both are examples of "tools" used by humans raised to at least as much sentience as Data.

I guess maybe I don't get some nuance of the episode: Data was a member of Starfleet, able to make decisions right up until they thought they could reproduce him, then he was property.

But I'd like to think the FED was better than that.

^Ok, as I understand it:

Cmdr Maddox was on the committee that examined Data when he applied to the Academy, and was a dissenting vote when they approved his admission. Later (as seen in "Measure of a Man") he tried again to get Data declared non-sentient so he could experiment on him. This led to the trial and Louvois' ruling.

Starfleet apparently didn't learn it's lesson, because Adm Haftel tried similar shennanigans to get control over Data's "daughter" Lal before she died.

Moving on to Voyager, the issue of the Doctor's sentience/rights did come up at one point and this time he was outright declared not to have sentient rights ("Author, Author"). At the end of that episode in fact, we find that "decommissioned" EMH Mk 1s do in fact become effectively a slave labor class.

One of the reasons I have Voyager so much, btw...

The Federation (and Star Trek) has entered some fairly morally questionable area's on the part of the Federation, so I interpret the Federation as a Bright, But Flawed, look at the Future. This is due to a lot of the rather Tone Deaf writing of some of the writing staff trying to gin-up 'Drama' including but not limited to:

1) A.I. Is A Crapshoot. Yeah, Artifical Intelligence tends to get the short end of the stick in Trek, but then most A.I. seems to follow the Berzerker/Terminator model or dumb as a rock servant. There apparently is NO in between in Trek. Which I find really truncated and stupid. LEt's see some actual smart frames or artificial intelligence that is actually helpful developed as characters. It would make things more interesting. And the Treatment of Photonic Lifeforms is appalling by The Federation, who seems to be okay with slaves that do not bleed.

2) All Hail the Federation....even when they are being complete jerks to you. TOS, which perhaps a bit cheesy on some of it's speechifying, did not get too heavy handed...usually. TNG and particularly VOY suffered from and I really hate to say this "Great White Man come to enlighten the natives." Seasons one and two of TNG were particularly bad in this regard, but thankfully they dialed that back a LOT. The less said of Voyager the better. To fix this tendency, I'd like to see the new crew come across a problem, figure out how to fix in and then soft sell it to the people they are interacting with through understatement and simply stating politely, "This is how we do things." Leaving the contact of the week to think about what they have seen and follow up with politely answering questions, not rendering any judgement unless asked. This would be closer to a more mature set of Federation officers which is kinda playing on Gene's 'Evolved' nonsense.

3) No Genetic Engineering: Okay, seriously. The Augments and the Eugenics Wars were from over 400 years ago. Get over it and yourselves, Humanity. It would be interesting to see other human variants that had not followed the genetic restrictions having built local coalitions that the Terrans would have to deal with or be proven hypocrites. Let's see if that 'Utopia' stands up under scrutiny. there was a novel about a colony of Augments that did not want to interact with the Federation as they heard the horror stories from their ancestors, who were early Augments (think Khan and his Ilk) who they considered nutters, but understandably so. The New Augments were a significantly improved version of the regular augment version, but had certain genetic modifications to make them more stable and personable. They would probably make great Federation citizens, if the Federation wasn't a pack of lunatics form their POV. The commentary result was hilarious, pointing out the obvious flaws in Federation logic with regards to genetic engineering.

4) Section 31: I had no problem with this showed up in the show. I expected there would be an Intelligence Office around somewhere that kept track of all of the hostile empires surrounding the Federation that worked with Starfleet's Tactical & Strategic office. I also expected there to be a Black bag operation somewhere handling the things the Federation would rather not acknowledge. The fact that it is literally off the grid with no official status or registry, makes it devilishly hard to spot by OpFors and more effective in the deniability area. Where the execution of the idea fell down was that A) distinctive black leather uniforms....that looked horrible and what moron thought those were a good idea? B) s-31 agents should exhaust every other option reasonably before going for what I call the "Bastard Option', but if they have to, just set it in motion and tell the minimal amount of information needed to let people wonder what just happened. And plans within plans within plans to make them effective. IDW's Star Trek Series portrayed S-31 as quiet, manipulative and capable of carrying out contingencies that played the Klingon Empire AND the Romulans like a fiddle. No more of this Federation nativity nonsense. If you are going to have this, then make it a credible threat

If they kept this, but made these tweaks, it would open up more plot ideas for debate and a bit of a fresh look at older subjects

I loved that VOY episode where they wanted that long range teleport tech, and THEY got 'Prime Directived'; the race that made it didn't want their advanced tech falling into potentially irresponsible hands. They even resisted the "impassioned captain speech"!

I always laugh at the genetic engineering ban: they can accept all manner beings into the fold ("oh, your species only eats sentient species? I'm sure we can work something out,"), forgive long time and terrible enemies (Worf and 7 Of 9), but one doctor (a rather brilliant doctor who had saved thousands of people and served with distinction at an important post) turns out to be gene modified and he MUST be drummed out of the service. Being gene modified is apparently worse then disobeying Star Fleet orders, violating the Prime directive, stealing Starfleet property, or assaulting Starfleet personnel. Captain, later Admiral, then Captain (again) Kirk did all those things in his career. The worst he got was being 'forced' to return to the captain's Chair, the job he really wanted in the first place.

When you augment man, you augment ALL of man, not just physical strength, immune system, etc. You also augment ego, ambition, greed. Those too are a part of man. The result can be (if you're lucky) a Julian Bashir, but (if you're unlucky) may well be a Khan Singh.

If you're truly Murphy-ed, you get stronger, smarter, faster telepathic kids whose immune systems treat you like viruses and kill you.

Trek's attitude towards GM is exactly right: we are not gods/God. We are not as smart as we think we are. We are not in control. And we have no business mucking around with something designed and perfected over millions of years (by who or what I leave to other debate). At our level of intelligence, genetic engineering is like giving a bunch of 10 year-olds a Formula One engine and a toolbox and telling them to "have at it".

We already know this in real life, but we're ignoring it because we're told to by the very corporations who make massive profits out of it.

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Originally Posted by BouncyCaitian

3) No Genetic Engineering: Okay, seriously. The Augments and the Eugenics Wars were from over 400 years ago. Get over it and yourselves, Humanity. It would be interesting to see other human variants that had not followed the genetic restrictions having built local coalitions that the Terrans would have to deal with or be proven hypocrites. Let's see if that 'Utopia' stands up under scrutiny. there was a novel about a colony of Augments that did not want to interact with the Federation as they heard the horror stories from their ancestors, who were early Augments (think Khan and his Ilk) who they considered nutters, but understandably so. The New Augments were a significantly improved version of the regular augment version, but had certain genetic modifications to make them more stable and personable. They would probably make great Federation citizens, if the Federation wasn't a pack of lunatics form their POV. The commentary result was hilarious, pointing out the obvious flaws in Federation logic with regards to genetic engineering.

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To paraphrase another great Trek line: "If only you could hear yourselves. 'Augments.' Why, the very name is racist."

it would be more like, "We have never considered ephemeral attributes such as the amount of melanin in one's epidermal layer to be relevant other than considering protection verses solar radiation. Ones genetic's simply are. Your fixation on remaining genetically human in spite of the fact you often interbreed with various xenos we consider a mild form of mental barrier or perhaps disorder. We have adapted to our environment as we see fit. You do not enter into how we factor our long term survival and your emotional state is irrelevant to us in that regard. We do have some genetics tools you may wish to purchase to assist with the removal of genetic diseases your species still suffers. We are open to negotation."

Seriously, though, the terminology—'augment,' 'significantly improved'—is simply reifying a set of assumptions that simply reproduces racism and ableism: the idea that there is some essential characteristic the bestows greater 'value' or 'superiority' on one individual over another. You can't have ubermensch without the untermenschen, and a culture dedicated to that kind of iterative creation of successive super-men isn't going to be a great fit in the Federation, especially since the basic conflict in such a society over which of ubermensch is the uberest flies in the face of the Federation's stated values of equality.

EDIT: I mean, TNG has a bridge crew two two cyborgs, an android, one guy with literally superhuman strength and vitality, and woman who could probably disable the rest of them with mind-rays if she practiced enough. Not once do they act like a VISOR makes him an 'augment' instead of a normal person and Federation citizen with a VISOR.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

To paraphrase another great Trek line: "If only you could hear yourselves. 'Augments.' Why, the very name is racist."

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No it isn't. It is an accurate description of a community of people who have been genetically augmented.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Seriously, though, the terminology—'augment,' 'significantly improved'—is simply reifying a set of assumptions that simply reproduces racism and ableism: the idea that there is some essential characteristic the bestows greater 'value' or 'superiority' on one individual over another.

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Pleaase don't play cute with us. Objectively measured, if you are stronger, faster, intellectually more capable than others, you can be so described and it not be "racist" and the whole notion of "ableism" is one of those BS made up words that denies objective reality.

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You can't have ubermensch without the untermenschen, and a culture dedicated to that kind of iterative creation of successive super-men isn't going to be a great fit in the Federation, especially since the basic conflict in such a society over which of ubermensch is the uberest flies in the face of the Federation's stated values of equality.

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Which is why the Federation bans genetic enhancement.

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EDIT: I mean, TNG has a bridge crew two two cyborgs,

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Abusing the frak out of the term.

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an android,

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I'll give you that one.

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one guy with literally superhuman strength and vitality,

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Who comes from a race of people whose mentality is shaped by those traits to believe that the strongest rule the weakest and value martial prowess over all else. A natural result of their biology.

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and woman who could probably disable the rest of them with mind-rays if she practiced enough.

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Uh....no.

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Not once do they act like a VISOR makes him an 'augment' instead of a normal person and Federation citizen with a VISOR.

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Has nothing to do with genetically enhanced people.

And the Herans (the Augmented humans) have already had this argument and debated the daylights out of it. After much debate in the book, they held a vote. The first was potential conquest of the Federation (which most thought was a bad idea), Second was Joining the Federation after careful negotations (this failed). The majority Chose going there own way because Humanity was too neurotic and not worth the effort to conquer. Much to Picard's amusment

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Originally Posted by Chris Donovan

Pleaase don't play cute with us. Objectively measured, if you are stronger, faster, intellectually more capable than others, you can be so described and it not be "racist"

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That's eliding over the value judgment being made, which is at the core of calling it an 'augment'—that there is a "better-ness" that inheres in an individual having more muscle power, reaction time or memory.

Stepping away from Trek's humanistic utopian vision for a second, real-life transhumanism has failed to grapple with the fact that valuation itself is an object to be manipulated, which means that in real life you're more likely to get people who, assuming neural hacking exists in a version of our capitalist society, just boost their serotonin levels and eradicate anxiety reactions or feeling sad than any other more externality-focused (and probably more expensive) adjustments. In this way, any recreational narcotic use is an "augment."

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and the whole notion of "ableism" is one of those BS made up words that denies objective reality.

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https://books.google.ca/books?id=r2C...page&q&f=false

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Originally Posted by BouncyCaitian

And the Herans (the Augmented humans) have already had this argument and debated the daylights out of it. After much debate in the book, they held a vote. The first was potential conquest of the Federation (which most thought was a bad idea), Second was Joining the Federation after careful negotations (this failed). The majority Chose going there own way because Humanity was too neurotic and not worth the effort to conquer. Much to Picard's amusment

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So here's the meat of it: What form of government do the Herans have? How is property distributed, and how is the economy organized? How do they police themselves? How is the military organized? What genetic changes do they undergo, when, and who decides that? Who owns the techniques and technology to perform those changes?

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Originally Posted by Chris Donovan

Abusing the frak out of the term.

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Are you not familiar with the origin of the term? Technically, any tool-using creature is a cyborg if the tool is used to changes the system of their body going forward (like, say, agriculture).

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Who comes from a race of people whose mentality is shaped by those traits to believe that the strongest rule the weakest and value martial prowess over all else. A natural result of their biology.

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If aliens had crash-landed in Norman England and ol' Willie stole their warp drives the resulting civilisation would probably be much the same... putting aside the fact that Klingons are an orientalist mashup that don't actually make sense :P

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Has nothing to do with genetically enhanced people.

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It has everything to do with it, since it demonstrates the kind of relationship with medical intervention the Federation values, siting dealing with Geordi's eyes in the community around Geordi rather than within Geordi's body. It's the same problem as calling the 'augments' 'augments': the thing actually doing the 'augmentation' is the technology and socialized knowledge in the society around them—the prosthetic and cybernetic technologies—not in the bodies of the people being altered—which are sites of medical intervention whatever the case may be—but the 'augment' narrative imagines that there is placed in the body some sort of 'betterness.'

Which is why "Measure of a Man" works so well as an episode. Maddox, in looking at Data as an indicator of technology rather than a being in and of itself is actually just in sympatico with the rest of how technology is presented in TNG: a tool to be used by extant humans in self-expression, rather than a tool to replace and make irrelevant extant humans.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

That's eliding over the value judgment being made, which is at the core of calling it an 'augment'—that there is a "better-ness" that inheres in an individual having more muscle power, reaction time or memory.

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BS. Objectively speaking, they are "better" in that they are more physically capable. That's not prejudice, that's just truth. You are arguing from the same fact-phobic mindset that means we can't even conduct valid scientific research into biological differences between races and sexes because someone somewhere is determined to be offended by them.

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Stepping away from Trek's humanistic Utopian vision for a second, real-life trans-humanism has failed to grapple with the fact that valuation itself is an object to be manipulated, which means that in real life you're more likely to get people who, assuming neural hacking exists in a version of our capitalist society, just boost their serotonin levels and eradicate anxiety reactions or feeling sad than any other more external-focused (and probably more expensive) adjustments.

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What real-life trans-humanism has failed to grapple with is that humanity doesn't need to be "transcended". The reason in part we are collectively going psycho right now is because we constantly are being told that any feeling that is inconvenient or that in any way makes us uncomfortable can be magic-ed away with a pill or a potion instead of us facing whatever our issue is.

The answer to being sad/anxious is not Soma. It's to grow up and deal with our emotions as adults instead of whiny little brats who can't deal with an imperfect world

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Are you not familiar with the origin of the term? Technically, any tool-using creature is a cyborg if the tool is used to changes the system of their body going forward (like, say, agriculture).

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I know that, however technically correct that might be, it is disingenuous because it uses the term outside of the generally accepted context to avoid comparing apples to apples. A Borg is NOT the same as a human with an artificial organ.

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If aliens had crash-landed in Norman England and ol' Willie stole their warp drives the resulting civilization would probably be much the same... putting aside the fact that Klingons are an orientalist mashup that don't actually make sense :P

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Norse, not "orientalist". And avoids my point completely.

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It has everything to do with it, since it demonstrates the kind of relationship with medical intervention the Federation values, siting dealing with Geordi's eyes in the community around Geordi rather than within Geordi's body. It's the same problem as calling the 'augments' 'augments': the thing actually doing the 'augmentation' is the technology and socialized knowledge in the society around them—the prosthetic and cybernetic technologies—not in the bodies of the people being altered—which are sites of medical intervention whatever the case may be—but the 'augment' narrative imagines that there is placed in the body some sort of 'betterness.'

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That argument was BS a couple of posts back, and it is still BS.

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Which is why "Measure of a Man" works so well as an episode. Maddox, in looking at Data as an indicator of technology rather than a being in and of itself is actually just in sympatico with the rest of how technology is presented in TNG: a tool to be used by extant humans in self-expression, rather than a tool to replace and make irrelevant extant humans.

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Which has absolutely nothing to do with the correctness of the Federation banning genetic engineering of humans.

The term "Augment" as used in Star Trek specifically refers to genetically enhanced individuals, including those with mental enhancements, whether it is done in vitro or after birth. Note that Augment does not include those who have genetically engineered cures for genetic or congenital defects. Both definitions are specified in Dr. Bashir, I Presume.

Cyborg is defined in science fiction as a fictional or hypothetical person whose physical abilities are extended beyond normal human limitations by mechanical elements built into the body, although the original, real-world definition was a compound word derived from cybernetics and organism, a term coined by Manfred Clynes in 1960 to describe the need for mankind to artificially enhance biological functions in order to survive in the hostile environment of Space. Originally, a cyborg referred to a human being with bodily functions aided or controlled by technological devices, such as an oxygen tank, artificial heart valve or insulin pump. Over the years, the term has acquired the science fiction meaning. In a pure technical sense, Geordi and Picard are both cyborgs, as for instance are my sister who has an insulin pump or my mother with two knee replacements—they are all properly known as medical cyborgs. The modern SF definition came into prominence with Martin Caidin's 1973 novel Cyborg, brought to TV as The Six Million Dollar Man, though such mechanically enhanced beings had appeared as far back as the late 1940's in pulp SF magazines. Note that while the Borg technically fall into this category, the Terminator does not actually qualify as a cyborg as it is a robot with a cloned biological skin covering. Cyberpunk type neural interface implants, or dataports, also fall into the category of SF cyborgs, and are strictly controlled, as shown in DS9's A Simple Investigation as used by former Idanian agent Arissa.

Both Augments and Cyborgs (both medical and SF) are what is now termed "post-Human" in some SF circles, a philosophy that the Federation roundly rejects, based on some rather unfortunate experiences.

The term Augment is not inherently 'racist', but merely descriptive, much as the term 'oriental' though now deemed derogatory was merely a description of someone or something from the (largely non-specific) East. The term Augment is no more 'racist' than is calling me 'disabled', as I am mobility impaired and use a walker to get around. Yes, Augment could be used as a derogatory term, but it is not inherently derogatory—much as can be disabled and as was the case for the term 'mentally retarded' which used to be a generalised medical term before being dropped as being insensitive to those with cognitive handicaps.

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Originally Posted by BouncyCaitian

And the Herans (the Augmented humans) have already had this argument and debated the daylights out of it. After much debate in the book, they held a vote. The first was potential conquest of the Federation (which most thought was a bad idea), Second was Joining the Federation after careful negotations (this failed). The majority Chose going there own way because Humanity was too neurotic and not worth the effort to conquer. Much to Picard's amusment

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What episode does the name "Heran" come from? I don't recall it ever being used on screen. Augments were only ever referred to as Augments and "genetic supermen".

^I don't think it comes from Trek. I think it's being used to describe a hypothetical planet populated by a race of GE persons.

And thank you for clearly elucidating what I was saying much more clumsily. I find it really annoying when people fall back on "technical definitions" to dodge clear questions.

[QUOTE=Chris Donovan;187475]I know that, however technically correct that might be, it is disingenuous because it uses the term outside of the generally accepted context to avoid comparing apples to apples. A Borg is NOT the same as a human with an artificial organ.[/quote

Hey, it's not my fault Lee Majors got everyone confused.

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Norse, not "orientalist". And avoids my point completely.

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What?

'Gene Coon primarily modeled the Klingons, metaphorically, on contemporary Russians, making the standoff between the species and the Federation representative of that between the Russians and the Americans during the then-ongoing Cold War.'

'This view of the Klingons had their sociology theoretically aimed at "the collective good" rather than "individuality," as pointed out by Kor actor John Colicos.'

'The Klingon Empire was also a metaphor for Communist China and its allies in the Vietnam War, namely North Vietnam and North Korea.'

'The script of "Errand of Mercy" introduces the Klingon look by saying, "We see the Klingons are Orientals,"'

'That makeup worker, Fred Phillips, started the process of designing the species by directly asking Colicos how he wanted to look. Despite thinking of the Klingons as the futuristic Russians they were intended to be, Colicos took inspiration from Genghis Khan, as Kor was likewise an ambitious military commander.'

'The makeup scheme was therefore actually a combination of a wide variety of sources, Colicos advising the makeup team, "Make me a little touch of Fu Man Chu, and a little touch of Slavic Russian, and a little touch of everything."'

The Viking stereotype doesn't even show up in discussions until Moore is writing "Sins of the Father, 23 years later, and that's still second to another orientalist stereotype:

'Two historical societies, the Samurai and Vikings, served as other inspirations, Moore perceiving about Klingon culture, "There was the calm, elegant reserve associated with the Samurai but there was the 'party-down' like the Vikings."'

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That argument was BS a couple of posts back, and it is still BS.

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You're not presenting any evidence to the contrary.

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Which has absolutely nothing to do with the correctness of the Federation banning genetic engineering of humans.

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They didn't ban it, though. It's used all the time. "Tears of the Prophets" and "Terra Prime" implies Spock may have been the result of genetic resequencing as much as Khan.

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BS. Objectively speaking, they are "better" in that they are more physically capable. That's not prejudice, that's just truth. You are arguing from the same fact-phobic mindset that means we can't even conduct valid scientific research into biological differences between races and sexes because someone somewhere is determined to be offended by them.

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Wait, did you really say

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biological differences between races

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I guess you did.

Boas died almost 74 years ago and somehow people still believe race to be a real scientific concept in biology?

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

Yes, Augment could be used as a derogatory term,

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Augment isn't the derogatory term, as the Star Trek VI quote should've made clear: it's the normalization of the augment-nonaugmented dyad that reproduces racialization as an idea. This shouldn't be particularly strange; just as War of the Worlds is 'What if colonization happened to whites?,' and the robot-uprising genre (all the way from R.U.R. the The Matrix) is just recasting Western fears of slave or subaltern revolts, so too is the fear (or hope) of genetic supermen rooted in assumption of contemporary hierarchial superiority inhering in particular bodies instead of in social systems. I mean, they are called the Eugenics Wars...

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

What episode does the name "Heran" come from? I don't recall it ever being used on screen. Augments were only ever referred to as Augments and "genetic supermen".

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it comes form the TNG Novel 'Infiltrator'. A rather decent read if you can handle the concept of non aggressive Augments

[QUOTE=The Tatterdemalion King;187482]

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Originally Posted by Chris Donovan

I know that, however technically correct that might be, it is disingenuous because it uses the term outside of the generally accepted context to avoid comparing apples to apples. A Borg is NOT the same as a human with an artificial organ.[/quote

Hey, it's not my fault Lee Majors got everyone confused.

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It is your fault for misusing the term outside it's accepted and understood context.

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What?


'Gene Coon primarily modeled the Klingons, metaphorically, on contemporary Russians, making the standoff between the species and the Federation representative of that between the Russians and the Americans during the then-ongoing Cold War.'

'This view of the Klingons had their sociology theoretically aimed at "the collective good" rather than "individuality," as pointed out by Kor actor John Colicos.'

'The Klingon Empire was also a metaphor for Communist China and its allies in the Vietnam War, namely North Vietnam and North Korea.'

'The script of "Errand of Mercy" introduces the Klingon look by saying, "We see the Klingons are Orientals,"'

'That makeup worker, Fred Phillips, started the process of designing the species by directly asking Colicos how he wanted to look. Despite thinking of the Klingons as the futuristic Russians they were intended to be, Colicos took inspiration from Genghis Khan, as Kor was likewise an ambitious military commander.'

'The makeup scheme was therefore actually a combination of a wide variety of sources, Colicos advising the makeup team, "Make me a little touch of Fu Man Chu, and a little touch of Slavic Russian, and a little touch of everything."'

The Viking stereotype doesn't even show up in discussions until Moore is writing "Sins of the Father, 23 years later, and that's still second to another orientalist stereotype:

'Two historical societies, the Samurai and Vikings, served as other inspirations, Moore perceiving about Klingon culture, "There was the calm, elegant reserve associated with the Samurai but there was the 'party-down' like the Vikings."'

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You youself note the similarities. As for Moore, whatever he intended, the result was more Viking than Samurai.

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You're not presenting any evidence to the contrary.

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I'm not the one making the claim.

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They didn't ban it, though. It's used all the time. "Tears of the Prophets" and "Terra Prime" implies Spock may have been the result of genetic resequencing as much as Khan.

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Minimal compatibility sequencing is not the same thing as deliberate genetic enhancement.

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Wait, did you really say


I guess you did.

Boas died almost 74 years ago and somehow people still believe race to be a real scientific concept in biology?

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Whether you call it "race", "subrace", "subspecies", or whatever, it's a distinct, identifiable population of similar genetics. Those populations have differing inborn physical and mental traits and abilities. That is not a value judgement. It is a description of reality.

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Originally Posted by BouncyCaitian

it comes form the TNG Novel 'Infiltrator'. A rather decent read if you can handle the concept of non aggressive Augments

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So how does it answer the questions I posted upthread?

In the real world some assignments are ordered and some are offered while a service member can request an assignment. One can refuse a position if there are good reasons for the refusal that are not personal. One is the family hardship or medical reasons. Another is a conflict in interests with another that will affect the smooth operation of the posting in someway. Yet during a time of war none of these are accepted. I have personal experience with some of these before I left the service. Note most postings are made on your past experiences of service.