All I ask is a small ship... (question on ship miniatures)

[Paul Dowsland]

I was wondering if anyone knows anything about plans for producing smaller scale miniatures (ie. not big model kits) of ships from the TNG onward series and films. Given the gloom about forhtcoming products I've seen on other threads, I presume not. Does anyone know who owns the licences for them?

[Don Mappin]

Decipher.

[Paul Dowsland]

Thanks for confirming that, I've emailed them to ask about it.

[Don Mappin]

The RPG studio was in charge of miniatures, hence their name "Decipher RPG & Minatures Studio." (now defunct)

Good luck.

[Antonsb214]

Glad I got my micromachines when I could. Of course for TOS you've got Starfleet Battles miniatures. And if you can hunt them down, FASA made a few for the movie era, but I don't think they got to do TNG. There are a few people out there who scratch build miniature starships out of wood and other materials, you can probably find them with a web search.

[MightyCthulhu]

I use Micromachines as well. I picked up a few just before they left the stores years ago and have collected a few more from ebay since then. They are not great quality but are better than nothing.

What I would really like to see is a fan written CODA compatible starship combat game since it seems likely that Engage will never see the light of day.

[Snake_Plissken]

What I would really like to see is a fan written CODA compatible starship combat game since it seems likely that Engage will never see the light of day.

oh-oh

Why do I feel the sudden urge to think something up... that's exactly the kind of challenge that could get me going.

[Paul Dowsland]

I asked them about Engage too. No reply as yet. With the holiday coming I might get the chance to bat a few ideas (and photon torpedoes) round the table too.

[Snake_Plissken]

Well right off the bat I'm thinking about a few concepts here. The ideas are:

-What I would do is a proper wargame, not a "wargame-flavored" RPG supplement (like Spacedock was). The idea is that the CODA RPG ship combat rules are excellent and they satisfy every need of those who need starship combat rules during their RPG session.

What I would do is a true starship wargame like Babylon 5 Wars, Lightning Strike, BattleFleet Gothic or Full Thrust.

Then the scale. Would I focus on ship to ship engagements (like SFB), small fleet action (like Full Thrust) or fleet-level action like (Turning Point)? I'd take the middle road and go for small fleet action, with enough detail to make ship-to-ship engagement still interesting.

Then I would have to decide if I want a hex-based game or a hex-less one. Most Star Trek wargames in the past have been hex-based so I'd go for somehting new and go hexless.

A few pointers:

-I would keep the complexity to a minimum, while retaining enough intergrity to keep the 'flavour' of the game. I would like people to say: "oh wow! that really feels like Star Trek". A single player should be able to handle a few ships (say 3-4) without too many problems.

-the system should be able to cover very well all eras of Trek, from ENT to VOY. What I'm thinking is that there should be a very wide disparity in capabilities between the ships of the various eras, unlike the RPG system. For instance a Movie-era Excelsior should be absolutely worthless in the TNG era, kinda like a 18th century galleon during our modern era. Thus, I would treat the old designs seen in TNG as total refits that bear little in common with their ancestors. Think WW1 battleship upgraded with Harpoon missiles.

-this being Trek, the single most important stat should be the crew. I would like an elite crew in a batterd old BOP to be able to defeat a Green crew in a shiny new Klingon cruiser. Also, that is WHERE I would make the tie-in with the RPG- I would use the RPG characters' stats in the system, like FASA did in their game. However, the PC's stats in the FASA system only granted a few marginal bonii- this time they should be very important, to the point where if you would have to choose between an experienced crew and a quantum torpedo upgrade you'd pick the former.

-I would include a construction system and a pointing system.

-I would have to decide what kind of dicing system I'd pick. D6, D10, D12, D20, a combo, etc. I'd tend to stay with D6 if only because the RPG only uses D6. Could be a nice tie-in factor.

-I would keep power-costing to a minimum, if any.

-So as I said, I wouldn't use in any form the RPG stats. For instance, I wouldn't make use of stats like 17/4 shields and photon penetration at 5, etc. While the mechanics of the stats are excellent within an RPG setting they are absolutely incompatible with a wargame structure. However I would keep many of the principles of the RPG system- such as the outmost importance of shields. Speaking of which, I would handle damage in about the same way: shields protect from damage but at a certain point some damage leaks through (ie the treshold system).

-lastly, I would use the 'official' stats (like the top speeds or the max torp range) as much as possible but I would try to find ways around them at the same time to make the game playable.

Well, I'll give it some more thought.

[Antonsb214]

Look at what I found...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=2547

[Don Mappin]

Keep in the mind the original iteration of the starship combat system was minis-based (units, facing, measuring distances, etc). The current version is based on that same foundation.

Also, I don't agree with the "absolutely incompatible" comment. Partly, see the previous paragraph, also, as a designer, I think the two could be tied together. I did further work on this on the side when I wrote "Starships," including a mass-combat system.

Matt Colville was doing all the work on Engage! while at Decipher. I'd hazard a guess to say its all but dead. (Engage! hasn't appeared on a product schedule in, what, two years?)

The current system betrays a bit of its roots from Full Thrust, Red Alert!, and Silent Death if you look closely enough. They weren't intentional design decisions but I won't dismiss the similarities either.

[Paul Dowsland]

I just received the following reply from Decipher:

"Not at this time - but we are talking with some manufacturers so keep watching the site."

So there you have it.

On the system (quickly - haven't had time to read comments in depth): I agree with non-hex, and "squadron" level rather than single ship or grand fleet. I disagree with the "galleon" comment.

Cthulu's initial wish-list was for "CODA compatible", so don't can CODA without trying - we're looking for evolution, not revolution.

Personally I think I'd start with CODA as the basis and see what works, tweak what still takes too long to work out after a few test games to see if it gets easier. Bear in mind you're starting the game with the fleet's ship stats and a rules cribsheet and tables for cross-reference already generated in front of you, not figuring all the maths out from scratch.

Sticking to one dice type (d6) does generally make for simpler game mechanics.

And yes, the crew should always be the heart of the ship!

P.S. re-Ebay - I see the Ferengi chop shop has been busy!

[Snake_Plissken]

Also, I don't agree with the "absolutely incompatible" comment.

I beg to differ; the main reason is that the range of values is too narrow in the system. A proper wargaming system needs a wider range of values in order to work. Especially with the ST setting, since now we'd have to cover several eras with a very big tech gap between them. In the Coda system, the Galaxy class is better overal than the movie-era Constitution but only by a small margin. Succinctly speaking, the range of values for shields from the movie era until TNG is from 14 to 18; that leaves very little room to cover a gap of about 80 years.

Also, wargames need more definitive rules. One of the oft-mentionned reasons why phasers should be used instead of torpedoes is that relying too much on torps isn't "Star Trek"-like and that the moderator should, well, step in and "moderate" their use. That kind of RPG context won't work in a good wargame.

I recently got a hold of some rules (Heavy Gear and Lightning Strike) from Montreal-based DP9. The rules are fine but after talking (in person) to some of the staff over there I got the feeling they're rather green in the wargaming dept. Indeed the rules felt like they weren't sure if the game (both HG and LS) was a wargame or a RPG supplement. Soemthing to think about.

Again, Spacedock was an attempt at giving a 'wargame flavor' in a RPG context and in my opinion it failed.

BTW, I've said so in the past and I still think it: if I would have been commissioned to write a set of RPG starship combat rules I don't think I would have ever been able to come up with something nearly as brilliant as what you did. I've never seen ANY system, be it a RPG, wargame or video game system, that captured the feel of the show quite like that. Which is btw to my knowledge the best RPG spaceship combat system ever devised.

. I did further work on this on the side when I wrote "Starships," including a mass-combat system.

oh-oh juicy... any details you'd like to share?

[Snake_Plissken]

. I disagree with the "galleon" comment.

well I'll admit that I'm basing that aspect on sheer personal preference. I feel that the older ships (say movie-era) shouldn't be able to compete with the "in-between" era (2300s-2350s) or the TNG era. However there is almost no canon evidence to back this up... and there is also almost none to contradict it either (!). The problem with established sci-fi franchises when it comes to wargaming is how to reconcile the "realistic" aspect of wargaming and the "plot-device" aspect of the shows. As Steve Long once mentionned in Spacedock, one week a torpedo hit destroys a ships than the other week the same torpedo barely scratches the paint. It's funny though how ships which feature the lead characters are always built incredibly tough

An RPG-based system (like the current CODA one) is usually much better at handling that problem than a wargame system with more rigid rules. That is why I've long felt that Star Trek wasn't a great candidate as a wargames background, although it is feasable (and the more I think about it the more I'd like to see what I could come up with).

[Don Mappin]

Snake, I agree with a lot of your comments re: wargames and RPGs.

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
Ioh-oh juicy... any details you'd like to share?

Probably not a whole lot to share; I believe Jesse was going to adopt the mass-combat rules from Jeff and LotR for Trek (the fixed ones, yet to be printed). I imagine shortly thereafter someone (me?) would have taken a stab at converting them for starship use.

My rules might make an appearance at some point; I have plenty more ideas for starship combat add-ons that one book just didn't let me do.

Thanks for your kind comments. I appreciate them.