Enlisted as a first officer?

[WarriorKnight]

In an epsoide I saw the other day,O'Brian said his rank was Sr. Chief Specialist.
Of course he was wearing Ens. insignias

[tmutant]

Originally posted by WarriorKnight
In an epsoide I saw the other day,O'Brian said his rank was Sr. Chief Specialist.
Of course he was wearing Ens. insignias

WarriorKnight beat me to it.

I use the idea of Chief of the boat in my campaigns either as a player character or NPC. The idea of the enlisted crewmen always having a voice on the senior staff just makes sense to me. Another note is that in the Federation pretty much everyone has the equivalent of a college education, so would qualify for OCS if they desired the responsibility. (Assuming that OCS exists. It's never been noted that I'm aware of. All officers are Star Fleet Academy graduates)

[redwood973]

I just can't see enlisted personnel serving in such a position as first officer. Senior enlisted persons are a well used resource by officers, some senior enlisted having much more experience. However, the first officer position is best given to an officer.

On the other hand, it is not uncommon to see an all enlisted watch aboard some U.S. warships. While it is not normal practice, it does happen. The first time I belive being about eight or nine years ago. So while I wouldn't see this enlisted character as first officer, I would not be far fetched to see the character leading a watch.

If your interested I could find the article that was done about the first all enlisted watch aboard a U.S. ship, I have it around somewhere.

[skree]

forgive me for not understanding the subject you all are discussing ......but according too two of my uncles,my father and two first cousins who have been in the Navy authority wheter enlisted/nco or officer is based on position held aboard a ship not rank....so it is possible for someone who lets say a chief engineer with a nco rank can tell a officer what to do or do with him/her self if the situation was in the engineering room(but this very much excludes the captain if he is in the engine room)

[Tas II]

"forgive me for not understanding the subject you all are discussing ......but according too two of my uncles,my father and two first cousins who have been in the Navy authority wheter enlisted/nco or officer is based on position held aboard a ship not rank....so it is possible for someone who lets say a chief engineer with a nco rank can tell a officer what to do or do with him/her self if the situation was in the engineering room(but this very much excludes the captain if he is in the engine room)"

This is a usual situation. The officers involved defer to the specialists in certain situations. Command decisions still lie with the ranking officer. Watching DS9 again (have the whole lot on video) there are numerous times when O'Brien is giving orders to Ensigns and the like. It's a similar kinda thing when the CMO confines an officer to sickbay etc. In ST Captain's typically dont take to being confined, but the CMO does have jurisdiction in medical matters (most extreme case: Certifying an officer unfit for duty/relieving them of command, a la Commodore Decker in TOS)

Cheers

Tas

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by skree
forgive me for not understanding the subject you all are discussing ......but according too two of my uncles,my father and two first cousins who have been in the Navy authority wheter enlisted/nco or officer is based on position held aboard a ship not rank....so it is possible for someone who lets say a chief engineer with a nco rank can tell a officer what to do or do with him/her self if the situation was in the engineering room(but this very much excludes the captain if he is in the engine room)

Actually, at least in the Navy I served in, you would probably never find a chief filling a department head billet on any ship of significance. Now, you will often find a chief filling a division officer role, and smart department heads will rely heavily on their chiefs as the subject matter experts in their fields.

Still, the final decision will lie with the officer. That's what they get paid for.

[Tobian]

It is different when it comes to technical specialists in a field as oposed to officers, certainly with respects to Startrek. In the case of a technical specialist - he's the guy (or gal ) who has to make the technical decisions based on their knowledge and or experience - so I think they would always be given a discretionary 'command' based on their competencies.

For example - you have 1 officer with 6 months of experience and no Engineering knowledge and 1 chief engineer with an NCO status and knows the warp drive like the back of his hand. Yeah the officer may well be a bright spark, best of his class yadda yadda yadda - but it's not like he can read the instruction manual when they are about to have a warp core breach!

Same would go with any of the specialist departments - sciences - medical - counseling - these are all experts in their respective fields.. They are doing what they get 'paid' for However they are not officers - they are not specialists in command - that's wha officers are.... if the chief engineer has to order 3 men to their deaths so that he can get the warp core back online - should that be in the hands of an NCO?

Generally that is the idea - officers have to make the hard choices, they have the greater responsibility to the shp as a whole. If you recall Deanna Troi's bridge certification - she had a similar hard choice - she was up all night trying to get the hang of the technical schematics of the enterprise - but what she didn't realise is she didn't need to know it - the choice she had to make was who would live and who would die!

I think the grey line comes in Startrek. It is tremendously hard for someone to go from from an NCO to a Commissioned officer, without a formalised Starfleet training, but then I wonder, can you do an 'open university' course to get it if you have the qualifications as certainly people have been given brevet promotions on the show - that's tougher to answer

[Sea Tyger]

The biggest difference between Star Trek and the real world is that all officers are also technical specialists. Enlisted personnel are basic maintenance, operations and administrative personnel, and only the most experienced enlists begin to rival officers in their technical knowledge.

In game terms, that would be when the enlist finally qualifies for and takes a starship officer elite profession (like Senior Chief O'Brien).

I certainly wouldn't allow a Star Trek enlisted character to be a department head without an elite profession, and, even then, only on very small commands (less than 50 crew)...Miles O'Brien should be the extremely rare exception to the rule, rather than being representative of enlists in Star Trek.

[Tobian]

Hmm I'm notr sure I see your point about Officers in Startrek NOT being specialists?

Most of the officers on the shows are shown to be of the best in their respective fields - Beverly Crusher was an officer and she was head of Starfleet medical for a time - Geordi La forge - expert engineer - Worf - Expert combat specialist and amongst the best combat specialist around.. and on... ?

It's just that they have the addition of their dual responsibilities as a senior officer on board?

How is this different from the real world modern military ? The emphasis placed and the style of it (more relaxed and less militaristic in Starfleet - on some counts but not all) are different but they operate allot alike in respects that offiicers are the best of the best?

[Caitian Tourist]

I think the best way to have an NCO be an important "command" character, would be to have a character like the chief from U-571. Not a command officer, but the wise and experienced seaman. The guy who doesn't give orders, but the CO has come to trust and sometimes rely on his opinion.

[KillerWhale]

Thank you so much guys. This is really a treasure grove of information!! And that gives me a lot to build upon and to think about.

We created the new character. The COB idea appealed a lot to the player. We managed to make an experienced enlisted character with RRT training, very focused on discipline and rigid, quite wary of "them officers" and ready to defend his fellow enlisted crewmen. That promises to be very interesting as all three other players are officers (CO, XO, science dpt. head).

Again, all my thanks for your help, thanks to you we turned the player's character concept from something not really playable to a character that has the best chances of interacting with the previously established PCs

[Pericles]

None of the Star Trek series explained rank very well. I remember that for a long time it was assumed that the entire crew of the original Enterprise were all officers - no enlisted at all, so it doesn't surprise me that the rank of "Chief" is so poorly defined. O'Brien could have been a senior noncommissioned officer, but I tend to think he is what the current US military calls a Warrant Officer. A Warrant is almost universally called "Chief" and they are always technical specialists, which fits in with comments O'Brien made during the series. The one I remember best was some tool of O'Brien's was missing and, I think, Bashir said words to the effect that "maybe so and so borrowed it." O'Brien replied with words to the effect of "No one just borrows a chief's tools." This fits in that he's not a commissioned officer, but has sufficient prestige that would prevent a junior person from just crowding his territory.
Warrants are almost always long time enlisted that are selected to become Warrants because the service realizes they have an area of special expertise and are "Suject matter Experts" in a given field. They do not usually command others, but their rank and pure experience gives them authority over others when it comes to their given field. Enlisted would certainly report to a warrant and even junior officers could, if they are in need of learning from such a master of his craft.
The original question of could a senior enlisted be the XO of a ship? My thought would be only if the ship is very small and there is only one officer - by curtesy called captain regardless of rank - on the ship.

[Antonsb214]

Junior officers are generalist, they know a little about a lot of subjects, NCOs specialize in just a few, that's their job. The Ensigns may be in charge of a team of enlisted specialists and would be well advised to listen to CPOs for guidance, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the ensigns, that's why they're in command positions, to get that command experience and learn from the specialist before they transfer to another department to learn more about something else.
So by the time that officer makes Lt., he'll hopefully know enough about his department to make department or section head. The NCOs will just have learned about their specialities.
In RPG terms, the officer gains knowledge in maybe 6 skills, the NCO get the same advancements in only 2 or 3 skills.
As for an NCO as XO, only on small vessels. But the Chief of the Boat, or Senior/Master Chief Petty Officer, or whatever you wind up calling the position is the liasion between the officers and the enlisted. Crewmen do not complain to officers, complaints follow the chain of command, "going over someone's head" is a BIG no no.

[sixlegs]

I just found this thread and I have to disagree with the concept of Chief O'Brian "out-ranking" the Junior Officers. As a real "Junior Officer" in the military, I deal with many Chiefs. Technically I outrank them, however, a Chief, at least in the Army, is a technical expert and as such his opinion in a matter is generally accepted over a junior officer. I imagine Chiefs in the Navy (Star Fleet type military hierachy) are in the same situation. A chief gives a recomemendation of a course of action and the officer makes the descion. MOST of the time the final outcome is what the Chief suggests. Chief O'Brian is a lot like a Maintenance Chief in the Army for what he does. A Maintenance Chief is just about a Pseudo-God in the Army. They keep Battalions moving and again MOST of the time what they say goes. If I do not think something is feasable that I am ordered to do, I will seek out my Chief of Maintenance and get a second opinion. If he is "won" over to my side, the deal is about 90% clenched. However as we all know, Commanders have their own pet projects and sometimes in the military we do something we don't agree with (LOL)...
... Sixlegs

[TJLanza]

I've done quite a bit of research on the subject matter, as I run a different science fiction game with a far more militaristic bent.

There are a few different issues involved here. I'll cover the initial question first:

No. An enlisted crewman, no matter how high ranked or how much experience he has would never be given the kind of authority a vessel's Executive Officer wields. Any command experience the enlisted crewman may have is limited to a very small area of expertise.

Using aircraft carriers as an example, the posting of Executive Officer is actually two steps away from recieving your own carrier command. After serving as an Executive Officer on a carrier, the prospective Commanding Officer is actually assigned as CO to some other deep draft vessel. Only after a tour there is he eligible to command one of the most valuable vessels in the US Navy arsenal.

It is remotely possible that an enlisted man could be the second highest ranking crewman on a very small vessel, but such a vessel would be one that Starfleet was comfortable putting an officer as low ranked as Lieutenant in command of. (A historical example of this would be PT boats.) Even then, he's still not "Executive Officer," the post does not exist.

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As for enlisted or warrant officers giving orders to commissioned officers, it doesn't happen. However, senior enlisted tend to have far more time-in-service and far more time-on-station than the officers they work under. Any officer who doesn't listen to the recommendations of his older and wiser senior enlisted is a probably fool and will quickly find himself in a paper-pushing billet where he can do no harm.

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On the issue of authority - the military has two ways they determine who has authority. The first, and most common is rank. The second, and somewhat more complex, is positional authority. Positional authority is based on what your job entails. For the most part, positional authority lines up with the normal chain of command, but it doesn't always.

Using the aircraft carrier as an example, Admirals typically station thier flag onboard the largest ship in the battle group. In the case of carrier groups, this is always the carrier itself. When it comes to the operations of the entire battle group as a unit in a larger engagement, the Admiral has authority because that's his job. When it comes to the day-to-day operation of the ship, such as watch schedules or deciding which squadrons get which assignments, the Captain of the ship has positional authority.

Getting back to the Trek questions, it is positional authority that allows the Cheif Medical Officer to relieve other officers of thier duties, despite a superior rank.

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To put this all in different terms, I'm going to paste in an explaination I use in the rules document I wrote for a different system I plan to run Star Trek in one of these days, Fuzion. Character creation in Fuzion is entirely points based, but I think these snippets (with numbers attached) will illustrate the organizational points I'm trying to make:

Assignment [1 per level base, special]
Some positions have greater responsibilities, more stringent training requirements, and tougher qualification criteria. Most characters never have more than one Assignment of a given level, but may have the responsibilities of a lower level as part of their duties.
* Any character who lacks subordinates effectively has a Level 0 assignment.
* Section Leaders (Level 1) are the lowest rung in starship or facility administration. They tend to be in charge of small parts of larger departments. Shuttlecraft (part of the Operations Department), Impulse Propulsion (part of Engineering), or Child Care (part of Medical) are examples of sections.
* Department Head (Level 2) is the senior member of a given division of the ship. They have a number of section leaders under them.
* Line Officers (Level 3) are qualified to take command of a vessel should the need arise. Typically the Chief Engineer, Operations Chief, and occasionally the Chief Medical Officer, are in truth Line Officers instead of Department Heads.
* Executive Officer (Level 4) is second only to the commanding officer. On some ships, the XO fills a Department Head position as well.
* Commanding Officer (Level 5) is the highest authority on board a ship. In Starfleet, the Commanding Officer is also Department Head of Command, putting promotions and reassignments under his control.
Higher levels of Assignment are general station-based, administrative positions. In the Federation, the Admiral in charge of a fleet (an example of a Level 6 assignment) is permitted to have a single vessel under his direct command.

Assignment Impact
Frigate, Escort, or Outpost - x1
Destroyer, Cruiser, or Station - x2
Explorer, Battleship, or Command - x3

Assignment Example
The Galaxy-class Enterprise is an Explorer, so all of these positions carry a cost multiplier of x3.
* Captain Picard is not only the Commanding Officer (15 Op) of the Enterprise; he is also a Line Officer and Department Head of Command according to Starfleet policy. He is considered Section Leader of the Bridge whenever he is present.
* Commander Riker is Executive Officer (12 Op), and a Line Officer by default. He is also Department Head of Flight Control. He is considered Section Leader of the Bridge when he is present but Picard is not.
* Lt. Commander Data is a Line Officer (9 Op) and Department Head of Operations. When Picard and Riker are absent, he is Section Leader of the Bridge. Any other Line Officers fall after him, but they too are considered Section Leader of the Bridge under the right circumstances.
* Lt. Commander LaForge is Department Head of Engineering (6 Op) and Section Leader of Warp Propulsion. He could delegate the second assignment to a subordinate, but chooses not to.
* Dr. Crusher is Department Head of Medical, but doesn't take any particular section as her own. Though not apparent at the beginning of the series, she is also a Line Officer (9 Op).
* Worf is Department Head of both Security (6 Op) and Tactical (also 6 Op). He is not technically a Line Officer, but is often left in command of the bridge, Section Leader, when it is impossible, unnecessary, or inconvenient to summon Dr. Crusher.
* Counselor Troi is only Section Leader of Mental Health (3 Op), and therefore subordinate to Dr. Crusher. She eventually seeks training to become a Line Officer (an additional 6 Op).

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I hope this helps.