Enlisted as a first officer?

[KillerWhale]

Hi all,

The Vulcan doctor in our group has retired, the player having expressed the wish to play something allowing more freedom.

My players regularly lurking in here (Hi, Loryk! Hi, Page! Hi, Doyt!), I cannot talk about the player's concept, but he wants to be enlisted, at a high grade nonetheless (all other players being from ltn. to cdr.).

The current player playing the XO may have to leave town in 6 months if his work decides.

So I'd like the new character to be able to fill the position if needed.

My question would be: can an old and experience enlisted officer (a la O'Brien) become XO on a small ship, say the size of an Intrepid class? Or is it completely nonsense to the chain of command and ranks?

Thanks!

[Dan Gurden]

Technically? No.

However, this being Trek, and the game based around your players, there are ways and means to fix this. After all, your example of O'Brien shows a situation where an Enlisted man outranks many officers (at Least Junior Officers)

Firstly, it depends on the time scale. If you game is Dominion War (or post war) based then it is possible that many of the rules will have been thrown out of the window as neccesity over-ruled the Standard Operating procedures.

Of course, chances are that Starfleet would have offered a field Commission to at least Lt. Commander, so the player would likely need a fairly good reason to turn that down.

Then there is a second oftion.

Master of the Boat, now I don't know about it's real-life version, but I see this role as a Senior NCO aboard ship, effectively XO for the NCO's aboard ship.

Now following that option, offer this position and then choose from the following 2 situations.

1 - The real XO is an NPC, and the player as the senior Ranking member of the PC's is effectively the Group leader.

or
2 - With the departure of the XO, the Captain may defer a replacement due to lack of candidates and commitment, now someone will need to fill the seat, and who better than the Master of the Boat to serve as 'Acting XO' until such time as a permament crewmember can fill that position (which as Narrator, you know is an indefinite amount of time)...

[KillerWhale]

Thanks Dan for your insights! That answers perfectly - if I want to do this, I'll then have to find a solid explanation.

The timeframe is not really the DW - but we're approaching it (if the XO leaves, that will be at the beginning of DS9's s5). The ship is also a rather new concept (being the Ascendant with the holographic AI a la Andromeda) so I can use these two as a reason, but I'll have to explain why the ltn playing with us won't be offered the seat. (I'd like to avoid having an NPC as XO)

However could you detail the "Master of the Boat" notion? I'm not so familiar with some Navy notions. (Btw, would you know of a website explaining this notions to the mundane? I find my culture lacking in some areas) Thanks a lot!

[Dan Gurden]

Slight correction.

The title is 'Chief of the Boat', and I think its a US Navy Submarine position (Any of you Navy Guys correct me if I am wrong).

Heres an amusing description in a Peom of all places.

But heres the real job description;

"Chief of the Boat - The senior enlisted member on board the submarine. Assists and advises the commanding officer and executive officer on matters regarding the good order and discipline of the crew. Personnel assigned as chiefs of the boat are the top leaders in the enlisted community."

I had bastardised this for Trek by making it the Senior NCO aboard ship, reporting to the Captain like the rest of the senior staff. I did a short write-up for the Venture a while back, but will need to hunt that down when I get home.

[Evan van Eyk]

I strongly suggest not to make him XO. If the player expressed wishes to play an enlisted character he probably new that he would not have such responsibilities and most probably that was part why he choose to do it.

[Dan Stack]

It sounds like something of a reach -in most organizations, enlisted men aren't supposed to give orders. Senior enlisted men (i.e. petty officers) are to see to it that the orders of officers are followed. Indeed the main job of an officer is that of decision making and the giving of orders (and of course following the orders of superiors).

It is possible for someone to be in a position where he gives orders to someone of a superior rank (i.e. a Lt. Cmdr XO in command of a ship due to a missing CO with a full Cmdr as Chief Engineer). However, an enlisted man would probably not be eligible for a command position.

Even were it possible, it also would be rather awkward for the various senior officers aboard ship. If memory serves, all of O'Brien's staff were enlisted men, so he was never in the position of giving an order to someone who outranked him.

My suggestion would be to make the XO an NPC but have the character play a senior enlisted man - like Dan G's chief of boat idea (though the term is popular in Star Trek games, that term in modern navies is used for submarines and other small vessels - larger vessels use the term bosun for their senior enlisted man - I'd use whichever you like better). After all, while enlisted men are not supposed to give orders, a smart officer will make use of the experience and skills of all his crew, including senior enlisted men.

Disclaimer... All my opinion. Other games may do fine doing the total opposite of what I do.

[Tobian]

Actually having had a think about it I would say technically yes.

The reason that OBrien was able to have command over his fellow engineering staff was because - effectivelly - the commanding officer ordered it.

I would argue in that case that a commanding officer (The CO or Commander if there is no CO) could give the effective order that a Non comminnsioned officer *could* be his FO - or even effectivelly in charge.

However that said I also imply here *COULD* - I highly doubt he would unless it was exceptional circumstances.

Generally officers are given command because they have full Starfleet training in how to handle themselves, and how to interpret general orders / follow the chain of command and undertand their responsibilities with respects to the prime (and lesser) directives.

That said - thinking to Troi, who laterly gained a bridge certification - it could be possible a high ranking NONCOM could get such a certification. Taking it asside from a pure game mechanics issue - while Troi had an effective rank, she wasn't really an officer in the same sense as the rest of the bridge officers. She had to earn the right to become an *actual* officer and serve bridge time - so in that sense you can *Still* get the neccessary training, either as a background expenditure (at a GM's discretion of course) or as an in game training excercise - which could make for a good side plot for your players!

it's the same point for most of the medical doctors. They are all given an effective *rank*, because they need it to be able to order other officers around, but they aren't bridge officers unless they sit that test - and in that sense they are no more qualified than an NCO to be an FO - it's just that game mechanics don't account for this (Much like how one of my players bitched that he should be a Lieutennant, as he had taken the MO template, and usually doctors are given an effective Lieutennant rank, not Ensign - I told him to pay the poiints for it! )

There is also the option of a Brevet promotion - Kira nerys has *NO* Starfleet training, yet she holds a rank within Starfleet because she has a similar rank in her own right and becaus she is trusted. SO it is not without the context of a game that someone who is known and trusted by a high ranking Starfleet officer couldn't get such a promotion - but again I would also recommend they put in for *bridge certification* (whatever game mechanics you want here )

[Tas II]

Just my two pennies...

I think that O'Brien as 'Chief' is not being referred to as 'Chief Of The Boat' but as CPO or Chief Petty Officer, which in the Royal Navy is the snior NCO on board.
That said, it is possible that O'Brien was 'Chief' as he was the Chief Engineer on DS9 (another RN tradition is the use of Chief as a title when Chief of a department).
It would seem to me that althought ST uses naval terminolgy for the SF personnel ranks, it is a bit of a hodge podge of naval terms from around the world.
Given Rodenberry's details that the ship was Hornblower-esque, I think there are arguments that Bo'sun be used, but as it aint canon, 'Chief' to my mind is CPO.

Cheers
Tas

[Tas II]

Oh, and btw....

Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers have been promoted into the Officer Ranks (beginning as Sub-Leftenant in the Royal Navy/ Lieunant, JG in US and others I assume). So maybe this would be after sitting the exam from the OCS of Starfleet, to hold a bridge position a la Troi in previous replies?

Cheers

Tas

[Tobian]

I beleive it was stated several times in the show that Chief O-Brien was 'Chief of Operations (not engineering, Engineering is technically is a sub department of Operations)

he was also stated as being a Non Commissioned officer, and was given the role because he was an experienced operater.. and because he only ever did 5-6 minutes of work per episode on TNG, and they thought he needed to do more

It's a vague assumption, because while it's assumed that his rank was naval - I.e. Chief Petty Officer, I don't know if it was ever actually stated as such?

As a matter of course most of the time it did not matter that he was an officer, as most of his 'crew' were not actually Stafleet, but Bajoran technicians. Since he was not a bridge officer it didn't really pose any problems for him to be an NCO, because he was simply in charge of his department - and as a rule, you don't need to be knowledgeable on the prime directive and general orders if you're in Engineering

[Tas II]

Oops!

Chief Engineer? I did mean Chief of Operations, but got mixed up as am scribbling notes for a new adventure involving the engineer PC.....

Thanks for pointing that out, Tobian.


Cheers
Tas

[Evan van Eyk]

Being Chief of OPS is completely different thing than to being XO.
O'Brian got this post because of his experience. That is ok. Being an technican for all his career he most probably knows a lot about it and since it was a cardassian station and no Starfleet one, where everything runs on routine, his hands on experience was very useful - however a NCO can never have better experience suited for XO position than a real officer. You do not become XO as first post. You have to walk through a load of departments before that. Essentially the XO is the same as the Captain except the field experience. But remember if the Captain is not available the XO has to step in.

[KillerWhale]

Thank you very much for your input! There are a lot of great ideas there and I see a lot better how I could tackle the problem.

As I'm already toying a lot with protocol (the Ascendant's crew is as renowned - and debatable - as Kirk) I think I'll try to go the safest route and find a way to make things as consistent as possible with the normal hierarchy, unless a great scenario opportunity pops up. The head of the boat idea is great, as it fits well with the player's concept (having an old and experienced officer who believes in field work and regularly refused promotions), but I think the best would be to have him make an officer anyway.

I see him tonight, I'll let you know how things go.

[Tobian]

If you're on a ship with 1 captain and another NCO - they it shouldn't be a problem to be FO

Like I said it's pretty much unlikelly, but I think it could be possible given exceptional circumstances. - I forget the name of the episode, but the one with Red Squad in it would be a prime example - where all the crew weren't even NCO's !

During wartime issues such as rank can melt away and become very fluid - because needs must. O'Brien was a highly experienced NCO with experience of the Cardassians, and a skilled technician. I would argue that he had just as much right to be FO as any one else on the crew, based on experience.. hence he was often put in such roles once the situation became more desperate (blowing the rules out of the window). Nog, who hadn't even finished his academy training was made an Ensign - yet he effectivelly outranked O'Brien - but in real world situations it would be highly anomalous he would have seniority - and that bore out in the series.

Weather this is completelly feasible also depends on the size of ship you are talking about. vbeing serious again - if we are talking about a Galaxy Class ship - it's almost certain never to run out of Officers of one sort - but an Oberth class ship - Defiant class, or runabout - something small with only a handful of crew, then you are likelly only to have a couple of Officers at all! so then it could be likelly!

Peacetime is another matter of course!

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by Dan Gurden
Slight correction.

The title is 'Chief of the Boat', and I think its a US Navy Submarine position (Any of you Navy Guys correct me if I am wrong).

That's correct, Dan.

On surface ships, the senior enlisted advisor is called the "Command Master Chief." Of course, if a senior chief petty officer is in the senior enlisted advisor position (instead of a master chief petty officer), he would be called "Command Senior Chief."