[New Frontier] What Do You Think?

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
In TOS Spock was the only non-average person as being first Vulcan in Starfleet and with all his Vulcan Mind stuff and meditation. Krik was also special due to his fast career but that is it.

In TNG Data took Spocks role and Geordi was special as well due to his Visor skills. Counting Wesley to the main cast would also make him special - although he lacked much experience and did some quite dumb things as well.

DS9 actually had only Odo having "supernatural" skills and the emmissary plot of Sisko later gave hims this visions but that is it.

Voyager had the Doc, although he had not so many skills other Docs had not shown before - his skills were obviously bound to story limits.

Enterprise also has the Doc and T'Pol but all others crew members are rather average. Hoshis language skills also stick out but that is it.

The rest of the cast is rather average without special abilities or dramas I'd say.

Uhura could speak several languages, as could Hoshi...Hell Sato doesn't even need a translator unit. Wesely was a boy geniues, Picard a well respected member of the Federation science/diplomatic community, Riker was one of the best tacticians in the Fleet, and Archers father designed the first warp 4.5 engine. There are no "average" people in Trek, if they were they wouldn't be in the Fleet.

Now I give you McHenry's little spacial awareness talent was way above the norm, but I don't think the rest of the crew is too over the top in back ground.

My problem with Shelby was she was, as Sgt. Harper put , " a murderin' officer." In BoBWs she needlessly put herself and Data in danger, constantly fluted the chain of command and was a general pain in the ass. Head off Borg tactical and she didn't think that with the assimilation of Picard all her plans were out the airlock. In NF at least she has morphed into a competent officer.

And Jellico was a "jerk" why? Because he had a different command style as Picard and disliked Calhoun for his repeated history of insubordination? If hadn't been for Adm. Necheyev Calhoun would have been out on his butt along time ago. Jellico was a competent COMBAT officer.

My problem with the series is it suffered from the same problem as the rest of the books...BORING! But, I still like the concept of telling the story of other ships and crews.

[strict31]

Originally posted by Phantom
Uhura could speak several languages,

Which gives her the ability to do oh, just about what anyone else can sitting at the communications station with a universal translator at their beck and call. And even if the UT was on the fritz, luckily everybody in the galaxy spoke english!

I think the point was that even the above average characters in the shows had drawbacks to counter their "powers". Maybe they did in NF as well. Admittedly, I only read the first few books. I had a time getting past the mugato.

Maybe even more to the point, there are an inordinate amount of members in Calhoun's crew who could easily hold their own in an Avengers comic book. I think Trek should have characters who are exotic and special; some even with special powers. That's cool. It just seemed that David went a bit over the top.


Strictly Speaking

[Phantom]

Ok, the Mugato was a little silly, but no more silly then the Horta Security guard from the comics. Everyone comes up with a bad idea now-and-again, the whole body of work shouldn't be flamed because of it.

Everyone here says that all the Crew in the NF books had almost "super" powers. Ok, I give you McHenry...Who else had a power that was so overwhelming for a Trek character? As I have said I only read the first few books, before the usual Trek boardom set in, so I might have missed the part where Calhoun went flying down the corridors dress in blue tights and wearing a red cape while he fought evil.

[strict31]

The security guy was like a superstrong brick who could easily take some phaser fire before dropping. There was this weird catlike hermat character, both male and female (well, more female) who could give Nightcrawler a run for his money in agility (and had a naughty set of claws that were quite useful in the fisticuffs). Those two are Marvel characters right there. Of course, the helm guy had some powers that I later only heard about. Stopped reading at that time. And then there's the Mugato. Oh, and of course, Lefler had the proportionate strength and speed of Ashley Judd. Nothing to frown at, you know.

But at any rate, I'm not flaming the body of work. I'm saying David went a little bit over the top.


Strictly Speaking

[Phantom]

Originally posted by strict31
The security guy was like a superstrong brick who could easily take some phaser fire before dropping. There was this weird catlike hermat character, both male and female (well, more female) who could give Nightcrawler a run for his money in agility (and had a naughty set of claws that were quite useful in the fisticuffs). Those two are Marvel characters right there. Of course, the helm guy had some powers that I later only heard about. Stopped reading at that time. And then there's the Mugato. Oh, and of course, Lefler had the proportionate strength and speed of Ashley Judd. Nothing to frown at, you know.

But at any rate, I'm not flaming the body of work. I'm saying David went a little bit over the top.


Strictly Speaking

I have already given that the Mugato was a silly idea and that McHenry was a little out of proportion. I never really saw a problem with Kebron, a high setting on a phaser could still do him in. Didn't know about the Hermats claws, but again I don't see a problem with a high agility and good h-to-h ability, we have seen worse on the TV. I don't understand your last point, Lefler is Ashley Judd?

Is there anything else? Or is it just one or two characterizations that seem "super"?

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Phantom
I don't understand your last point, Lefler is Ashley Judd?

Lefler was played by Ashley Judd on TNG, Phantom.

Is there anything else? Or is it just one or two characterizations that seem "super"?

Don't forget Lefler's mom/Number One, who seems to be a Flint-style immortal...

BTW, I actually enjoyed the first few books, but they just got wierder after that. It might have been the talking Mugato that tipped the scales for me, too...

[Greg Smith]

I like the NF books, despite their flaws. Not as much as I liked David's earlier books.

The NF books are a little over the top, and there is some silliness in them, but only as much as say 'A fistful of Datas', 'Spock's Brain' or 'Trouble with Tribbles'.

The McHenry character is interesting, and fits in with the ST universe - he is the grandson of Apollo and Carolyn Palamas from 'Who Mourns for Adonais'.

But the great appeal of David's books to me, is his ability to create the most wonderful comic moments.

[Ezri's Toy]

Originally posted by Phantom
And Jellico was a "jerk" why? Because he had a different command style as Picard and disliked Calhoun for his repeated history of insubordination? . . . Jellico was a competent COMBAT officer.

Perhaps. . . but Jellico wasn't necessarily a good leader. His command style was abrasive and confrontational even when it didn't need to be. He didn't see people as people. He only saw them as tools to accomplish a mission. ("I don't have time to hand-hold the crew," he told Troi. "Get it done!" he snapped to Riker.)

Simply, Jellico didn't inspire loyalty at all and that is a necessary component (some might say the most valuable component) of leadership. (He strikes me as the kind of guy who might have been fragged by his own men were he a 2nd LT squad leader in Vietnam.)

If Jellico were in Picard's place during the events seen in "Insurrection," would the other crew have sacrificed their careers to assist him in freeing the Bak'u ? Probably not. Jellico had the know-how to do his job but his skills at personnel management and crew motivation were poor.

I see Jellico as a throw-back to the militaries of the 20th century; While this might be acceptable in an organization whose primary mission is defense and the implementation of foreign policy, it doesn't necessarily jibe with Starfleet's mission to explore and, in theory, make friends and allies of all life-forms and civilizations encountered.

Its amazing that Jellico made Admiral. Jellico is General Patton in a fleet of scientists and diplomats. And even Patton wouldn't have fared so well in Starfleet. . . .

[ComaBoy]

I think I wanted to like NF but it just never happened. It read like bad fan fiction.

[Balok]

Peter David's chief problem from my perspective is that he's inconsistent. Some of his work (like the second of the Sir Apropos of Nothing series) is very good. Some is average, and some is bad. And you never know what you're going to get.

I suspect he's got all those "super" characters in there because he's not sure how to tell good stories about so-called "normal" people. But a lot of the characters in the series were either unusual in some way, or had superior abilities. In some cases, grafted onto them later (Dr. Bashir). That's because people generally don't want to read/see stories about people who could be them (or maybe it's because that's what science fiction writers believe -- read some of the early pulp stories and you will find them strewn with characters who are strong, calm, smart -- competent in most ways).

I've found the New Frontier to be as inconsistent as some of his other works; some books are better than others; some are drek. And within books, some concepts are just awful (the talking Mugato -- although, to be fair, he explained this last one in a recent novel).

The strengths of Calhoun, while derived from different sources, are the same strengths any captain would need -- and have. As characters go, I find him a reasonable model of a starship captain.

Jellico, as depicted by David, seems similar to his TNG depiction -- in "Chain of Command", he was an ass, provided chiefly as a foil against which the quiet strengths of Picard could be contrasted. Whether such an individual would rise to a command position in Starfleet -- or even the military of today -- is debatable. What's not debatable, in my view, is that the character started as a cartoon, and David hasn't done anything to change that. You could blame him for taking possession of the character and not showing more facets, or you could say he's depicting the character as that character was revealed to us. I don't think you could say he damaged the character.

Where he falters the most in my view, is his own characters. His "Brikar" is a superstrong more or less stone armored creature from a low-gravity world. Sure, Trek is full of rubber science, but that stretches the rubber well past the breaking point.

Others have already commented on the silliness of the talking Mugato, who (genetic experiments notwithstanding) should have been discarded stillborn as a poor idea.

Likewise, there was no need to craft for Robin Lefler a mother quite like hers. The character could have been made interesting enough without that. Sure, if there's one immortal it stands to fictional reason there could be others (in fact, in my game, there are). However, there was already enough going on in his universe.

McHenry is probably a reasonable character given his parentage. What eventually happened to him, and the story told around that, violated too much canon for my taste. While it's possible that Apollo was wrong in believing he's the last of his people, what David assumed about them just irritated me.

Overall, I'd have to say that I can pick up a New Frontier book from the library, and I'll read it if nothing better beckons from the book pile. But past the first four or so, I won't pay money for them any longer.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Ezri's Toy
1) Perhaps. . . but Jellico wasn't necessarily a good leader. His command style was abrasive and confrontational even when it didn't need to be. He didn't see people as people. He only saw them as tools to accomplish a mission. ("I don't have time to hand-hold the crew," he told Troi. "Get it done!" he snapped to Riker.)

2)Simply, Jellico didn't inspire loyalty at all and that is a necessary component (some might say the most valuable component) of leadership. (He strikes me as the kind of guy who might have been fragged by his own men were he a 2nd LT squad leader in Vietnam.)

If Jellico were in Picard's place during the events seen in "Insurrection," would the other crew have sacrificed their careers to assist him in freeing the Bak'u ? Probably not. Jellico had the know-how to do his job but his skills at personnel management and crew motivation were poor.

1) I think that what he meant was that it was about time Riker did his job, as XO he was responsible for releying his Captain's orders to the crew. Instead he disobeyed a simple order for adding a new shift to the rotation just because it wasn't the way they did things on the Enterprise. A capatins job is to run the ship, the XO is responsible for the crew. Jellico maybe didn't inspire much loyalty in the crew of the Enterprise, I chalk it up to not enough time, but Riker and Co. sure showed what kind of morons they could be too.

2) The crew of the Cairo probably would have, willingly, followed him into hell. Jellico was a warrior and successful warriors always have a certain "cult of personality" behind them. His crew was probably more rabidily loyal to him then Picard's are to Jean-Luc.

[Ezri's Toy]

Originally posted by Phantom
1) I think that what he meant was that it was about time Riker did his job, as XO . . .

I could accept this explanation. . . except that he said it more than once in the same tone for different situations.

Originally posted by Phantom
2) The crew of the Cairo probably would have, willingly, followed him into hell. Jellico was a warrior and successful warriors always have a certain "cult of personality" behind them. His crew was probably more rabidily loyal to him then Picard's are to Jean-Luc.

And you base this assessment on . . . what ? The Cairo was mentioned only twice on Star Trek; Once on TNG for "Chain of Command" and once on DS9 when it was mentioned in passing that the ship was destroyed.

As for the NF novels, I've only read the first six. . . .

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Ezri's Toy
1) I could accept this explanation. . . except that he said it more than once in the same tone for different situations.

2) And you base this assessment on . . . what ? The Cairo was mentioned only twice on Star Trek; Once on TNG for "Chain of Command" and once on DS9 when it was mentioned in passing that the ship was destroyed.

1) See my comment on the crew of the Enterprise acting like morons. If they had put half the energy they put into resisting Jellico's changes and put it into their mission, they would have been alot better off. Personally if I were Jellico, Riker wouldn't have seen his pips again after I relieved him of his post. And I liked Riker as a character.

2) I base it off all the study I have done of real world officers, Gen.'s Bradly, Patton, Rommel, Roberts, etc. Particularly Patton, his troops disliked him from time to time, but by God they knew when they were fighting for him they were going to win. Jellico is in this same vein of officer, I simply added to the story given we don't have actual canon info on the Cairo and it's crew.

[strict31]

Originally posted by Phantom
I have already given that the Mugato was a silly idea and that McHenry was a little out of proportion. I never really saw a problem with Kebron, a high setting on a phaser could still do him in. Didn't know about the Hermats claws, but again I don't see a problem with a high agility and good h-to-h ability, we have seen worse on the TV. I don't understand your last point, Lefler is Ashley Judd?

Is there anything else? Or is it just one or two characterizations that seem "super"?

Man, I didn't even know that McHenrywas the grandson of a being that was LIKE UNTO A GOD or anything. That doesn't seem more than a little super to you? And Lefler's mom...I didn't even know she was like Flint. These things merely add to the "super", not detract from it or, as your final question infers, minimalizes the "super."

The hermat thingee was very feral in a fight as I recall. Almost as impressive as the talking ape. I don't recall ever seeing any character quite like her in Trek. Perhaps you could refresh my memory. Admittedly, I probably am forgetting something, so if you have an example of a character in the shows who has matched or surpassed this character's feral kitten savagery and slashing claws, please tell me.

And you're minimizing the brick guy a bit, I think. Being able to take a phaser on a low to medium setting and walk it off is a significant ability that most Starfleet personnel simply don't seem to be born with. When we do see it happen, it's always meant to be significant. Almost as if they keep their phaser defaulted to stun and low settings because they expect those settings to do the trick.

It wasn't the fact that they are super. As I've already said, I don't mind super in Trek. But there were just so many of them.


Strictly Speaking

[Phantom]

Ok, now I know how some of the other people I have argued with in the past feel. I have already, repeated said that I agree the Mugato was silly, McHenry's background somewhat over the top, and Lefler's mom dosen't really factor in as, to my knowledge, she is a background character (ie Q) and Robin doesn't have any special abilities from her mother. Ok, great. A given...I take your point. Now, let's see;

1 silly idea.
1 somewhat powerful main character.
1 powerful NPC, if you will.
1Hermat with roughly equivalant in fighting ability and agility as I remember the Caitians (Regulans) being.
1 guy that is immune to lower level phaser settings, not a big deal as that is what the power setting switch is for.

Equals;
1 Guy who knows where he is spatially. Did they add any really big super powers to McHenry.
1 Guy immune to phasers on low settings.
1 Hermat who is what the equivalent of...oh, I don't know...hmmm, Worf/Odo/Garak in h-to-h.

We're not exactly talking the Justice League here are we? I've seen more powerful characters in some of the games I've run, and at lower levels.

Your Honours do we have any further evidence? Or does the prosecution wish to continue beating me about the head with the same facts?

Note: that was a joke.