Nemesis

[Scarecrow]

My wife is watching 'The Gift' and so I've been relegated to the bedroom where we have no DVD player. I was therefore forced to choose between Insurrection (which I watched recently) and Nemesis - the only Trek I have on VHS. Okay I could have watched any number of movies but I was in a Trek mood.

It's really not that bad. Okay, Killing off Data was pointless and rather undermined by the fact that, just like Spock, there's an EXACT copy of him waiting to reprise the role in a sequel (which looks pretty much like it's never going to be made anyway).

Okay it's got it's problems. For example, it's a bit too much Star Wars rather than Star Trek but it also has great effects, superb space battles and is overall a fun, enjoyable adventure story.

I think if they hadn't killed Data I'd have rated this movie quite highly.

Crow

[Erik Filean]

My gripe with Nemesis is that too much of the character-oriented screen time ended up on the cutting-room floor, and too much of the rest seemed overshadowed by the filmmakers' unholy determination to make sure the viewer knew s/he was witnessing the Biggest, Longest Star Trek Space Battle Ever (TM). Well, and then there was Picard's Substitute Penis (TM), a.k.a. the Argo jeep, which made no sense whatsoever either in terms of Picard's character or in terms of Starfleet protocols ("To heck with the Prime Directive! I feel the need...the need for speed!")

But seriously, the nature vs. nurture dualism of Picard vs. Shinzon had so much more meat to it than the space battle...and Stewart and Hardy both seemed up to the task to me. The excessive focus on the FX and the militarism and the hackneyed save-Earth-from-poorly-rationalized-alien-attack thread wasted what could have been a really great character showdown.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Yeah that's pretty much my feelings. Nemesis could have been a really good movie, if more work had gone into the story, and there was less focus on the whiz bang VFX. And if they'd had a director who had more than half a clue what he was doing.

[Scarecrow]

Fair comments. I felt the Argo scenes were more Mad Max and less Trek. Again the running gun battles were too Star Wars.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the reviews and general opinions tend to be quite savage - take Harry Knowles rather overly vicious review on AICN for example - and despite it's faults, I personally don't think it's all that bad.

Crow

[Erik Filean]

Originally posted by Scarecrow
Fair comments. I felt the Argo scenes were more Mad Max and less Trek. Again the running gun battles were too Star Wars.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the reviews and general opinions tend to be quite savage - take Harry Knowles rather overly vicious review on AICN for example - and despite it's faults, I personally don't think it's all that bad.

In the end, I'd agree...it isn't all that bad; not as bad as STV, anyway, which is still the standard by which I measure all badness in Trek movies. That's what I find frustrating. The good bits are there, lurking around the corners, but I'm left feeling like I have to fill in gaps willfully left by filmmakers who were trying far too hard (and not particularly successfully) to cater to a general action-movie audience instead of the built-in audience that was going to actually pay to see the movie. If it didn't do well at the box office, perhaps it was because it didn't make enough fans want to offer it their return business.

[strict31]

Actually, the thing that felt the most Star Warsish to me was the fact it was based on some damn clone as the selling point. Shinzon just felt like another out-of-nowhere bad guy with an inexplicable mad-on for the good guys. His goals seemed painfully shallow and poorly thought-out. Hard to buy him visually as Picard, and it really didn't help to show a pic of young Jean Luc with a cue-ball doo to shore up the likeness. Didn't he have a full head of hair in the Academy anyway?

Yes, I, like Erik felt they left too much on the cutting room floor. It would have been nice to see some attempt at continuity made to bridge the events of the Dominion war and Worf's presence on board the ship. Would have been nice to give Wesley some dialogue to explain what he was doing in a starfleet uniform. It just...would have been nice.

Got the sense that Brent Spiner and the guy that wrote Gladiator (what's his name?) came up with the bulk of the plot sitting around the pool, smoking cigars...oh wait, that's exactly what happened...

The whole nemesis idea would have come off much better as a Mirror Universe movie. They do better when tapping ideas from the broadcast shows rather than pulling stuff out of their bums and polishing it up.

But, negativity aside, I'd rather watch nemesis than the majority of movies that came out that year. Plus, it wasn't all bad, IMHO. I mean, Dina Meyer proved that a romulan could be gorgeous...


Strictly Speaking

[Phantom]

Not that BAD!?

Let's reiterate a few things;

-clones
-a car chase in Trek?!?!?
-clones
-the Romulans suddenly becoming useless putz thugs
-clones
-Romulan ships not be able to survive more then a few minutes of combat without blowing up
-clones
-killing Data...
-...then bringing him with B4...I think JMS is goin' sue someone.
- ouija board targeting systems
-space vampires
-overall lack of a good story line
-oh, and did I mention clones?

For the life of me, I can't think of one good thing about this movie.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by strict31
The whole nemesis idea would have come off much better as a Mirror Universe movie.

Now that would have been cool, take the Diane Duane concept from Dark Mirror and run with it...Minus the dolphin, too SeaQuest like for Hollywood lawyers.

[Rayaru]

Erm, clones are not new to Trek with Nemesis.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/vie...ode/68394.html

Suspecting that the second colony might also be in danger, Picard engages the crew on a search, which leads to the planet Mariposa. When an Away Team beams down, they learn that the entire Mariposan society is composed of clones made from the five crew members who survived their ship's crash landing.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/vie...ode/68604.html

His heart filled with anger, Worf threatens Koroth later, making him reveal the truth. He and Torin used an organic sample of the original Kahless to create a clone, one in which they imprinted "memories" so even the clone would believe.

Heck, here's another example: http://www.startrek.com/startrek/vie...ode/22002.html

Ignoring Kirk's insistence that the Universe has become a virtually peaceful conglomeration of worlds, Keniclius Five clones Spock, crippling the Vulcan almost to the point of death.

What was good about it?
-Dealing with the question of nature vs. nurture
-Cool Space Battle
-Good Soundtrack.

Agreed that the plot was a bit on the weak side, and it was definetly a weaker trek film.... but it wasn't that horrible, and I would say I even enjoyed it.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Rayaru


What was good about it?
-Dealing with the question of nature vs. nurture
-Cool Space Battle
-Good Soundtrack.

.... but it wasn't that horrible...

First point is from a novel, correct? At least I don't remember the reference. If so, it is then unoffical. Sorry to nit -pick, but it is the case.

Nature v. Nurture!? Missed this story. Unless you mean the Romulans putting a deadly weapon to work in the mines. If so you're right, they should have blown the little bastard into his component atoms.

Cool ramming scene, I think you mean. At least that is all I remember. Aside from my above remark about the Romulans getting blown out of the stars in two seconds flat.

Again don't remember the soundtrack.

Ah, yeah it was. But, it is a point of opinion.

[Rayaru]

First example was from TNG114 "Up The Long Ladder." (link was provided)

Nature vs. Nuture was the primary point around which the plot revolved. If you took an exact copy of Picard, the paradigm of goodness in Trek, and plopped him down from his "priviliged" childhood into the opposite end of the spectrum, would he turn out the same? The answer was unequivocally no.

Actually, I feel the whole battle scene in the rift was cool. Even those critics who I know personally agree there was good CG generally throughout the film.

And I do remember the soundtrack and it is good.

[strict31]

Originally posted by Rayaru
First example was from TNG114 "Up The Long Ladder." (link was provided)

Nature vs. Nuture was the primary point around which the plot revolved. If you took an exact copy of Picard, the paradigm of goodness in Trek, and plopped him down from his "priviliged" childhood into the opposite end of the spectrum, would he turn out the same? The answer was unequivocally no.

Actually, I feel the whole battle scene in the rift was cool. Even those critics who I know personally agree there was good CG generally throughout the film.

And I do remember the soundtrack and it is good.

Nature vs. Nurture could have just as easily been done with a Mirror Universe thing. That's part of what the Mirror Universe is all about, after all.

The SFX were good, but in the same respect, Trek movies have never lacked for SFX, ya know? Don't recall the soundtrack...

Also, the clone idea does not make the nature-vs nurture argument a lock. There is genetic drift. Even an identical clone, raised exactly the same, could make a different choice.


Strictly Speaking

[Space_Cadet]

I agree that the whole nature vs nuture was uninspired in the movie. Also the Reman attempt to attack Earth didn't seem plausible. Remans attacking Romulus in revenge of years of enslavement and the Federation coming to the rescue seems more plausible. Otherwise the rest of the movie was "ok" but more Worf scenes was needed since his family was killed by Romulans.

[Phantom]

Sorry I was refering to the one where SPock was cloned.

I agree the Mirror Universe idea would have been great.

Why would the Remens even be able to attack the Empire anyway? Hell Sparticus lead a whole slave army against Rome and he wasn't even a speed bump when put against a half decent commander. The RSN would have glassed Remus first.

And the whole smuggling a weapon thing into the Continuing Committee room doesn't wash either. Would someone be able to smuggle a bomb into the White House today? Let alone the Oval Office?

One dumb idea after another. The only thing I did like was Janeway as an Admiral.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Phantom
Why would the Remens even be able to attack the Empire anyway? Hell Sparticus lead a whole slave army against Rome and he wasn't even a speed bump when put against a half decent commander. The RSN would have glassed Remus first.

Not to harass but, Spartacus was more than a speed bump Phantom. True Rome did send some real weak commanders against him, but he was also believed to have been a Roman trained military man. He knew the Roman tactics, had a gladiator's timing, and a real desire to win. As the old saying goes- A free man will fight harder and better than a paid/conscripted man any day (I know I miss quoted it, but I don't remember how the entire mantra goes). Also Rome didn't start to win until the Celtic Gaul insisted on marching alone, making it easer to pick the rebels off.

Originally posted by Phantom
And the whole smuggling a weapon thing into the Continuing Committee room doesn't wash either. Would someone be able to smuggle a bomb into the White House today? Let alone the Oval Office?

I'll bet you the President or Vice President could if they set their minds to it. And as for the killer senator, she was sitting as the front table not in the bleacher looking things, hence high ranking position most likely. Just a random thought there.