"Ground Forces"

[Cessna]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Roy Cowan:
OTOH, part of the atmosphere of Trek is that the heroes take on these challenges themselves. Ground troops make sense as background flavor or supplementary forces, but they shouldn't take the spotlight -- or the responsibility -- off of the PCs anymore than treknology should.
</font>

Roy, that's a great point! You've put into words exactly why I haven't used "Marines/Ground Forces" in my campaign.

But I still think that "Marines/Ground Forces" would be a vital part of Starfleet, and could certainly be "background flavor" for a future adventure. Just beacuse they don't take center stage in a TV show or campaign doesn't mean they don't exist.

In Trek, I don't recall having ever seen a toilet or a fleet supply ship - but I'll bet they exist...

[Flecha]

Hey, I like how this thread is going, unlike the last time the marines issue dropped by! It seems that people is understanding the canon view, withouth turning it in "the real future of our current times", or any crap (sorry, can I say "crap"?) like that.

But before the debate goes too technical about what is exactly a ground force (or whatever) or not, a subject I believe it has no point at all in a Star Trek RPG forum -that is, a forum that should deal with how to play the true drama in the lives of Trek characters-, I want to point several things:

The point of Roy about using sometimes the main characters in ground combat for the drama is good, very good. However, I remember several Voyager episodes in which the characters -mostly Chakotay, curiosly- get engaged in some alien-world-withouth-space-travel's ground war that resembles our current world's wars in terms of uniforms, weapons, despair, and the like. From those episodes we can see that that kind of war is hated by the Trek franchise, is dirty and despicable.

Add to this the fact that, for all we have seen, the Starfleet personel at Starfleet outposts and bases, space or ground, is exactly the same personel that on any starship -and the LUGTrek game(s) support this fully; please, review-, the organizational structure of Starfleet is the same everywhere you look at. Thus, the unsavory task of aplying phisical force and (blegh!) violence goes to the security branch -which, by the way has other duties, including scientific research and which are, like any other Starfleet officer, first and foremost, explorers-; but when the need arises, that task is too performed by any other officer whatever his or her branch. And please, note again that everywhere you look at, ships or bases (spacebound or groung), the Starfleet officers are always the same, with the same branches: command, science, engineering, medical, security and operations. Well, and the counselors. For all we have seen (and by logic), all Starfleet officers aren't separated by forces; they are a unity.

So, there's no specialized ground forces (or ship forces, or anything like that) because the true mission of Starfleet is space exploration, with, as I said before, the experience in Space Exploration necessary to became the defense of the Federation in the case of an outer space menace -at first, there shouldn't be any "internal" menaces in the UFP, as per Star Trek axiom-; and not having anything to do with military organizations -despite the command structure, which is there just for the discipline necessary to the rigors of outer space exploration, the same ones that make an undesired need to carry weapons aboard; do you really thing that a real military organization would permit the familiarity in that trait between officers at the bridge, as we have seen? Let me laugh: HEH, HEH, HEH!-, it has no distinction; security is the branch dedicated to the matters described above for maintaning peace and, well, security, but all Starfleet officers have the training to perform it when necessary.

Buff. Is everything clear? I hope ao...

[carnnage]

I kind of run Star Fleet Marines (they are not called Marines) in my campaign for a simple reason, I cannot see Starfleet beaming done about 100 red shirt "bobs" who have training on starship security to handle a disagreement. I mean I am sure even Picard’s negotiation failed sometimes. And honestly I know that the people from Star Trek are superiorly intelligent to us but how is an enlisted ensign suppose to know engineering, command, how to redemodulate a phase variance, treat phaser burns, change the beacon bulbs on the outside of a galaxy class ship in zero Gs, be a negotiator, and handle a class X phaser rifle. He’s not that’s what make Star Trek such a huge success. All the trek shows we have seen so far never mentioned anything more than ships far away from the grand UPF. Kirk and Picard both were always on the outer borders of the Federation, Janeway well she just got the short end of an isolinear rod, but Sisko was the closest with the war and all. During that we saw things we had never seen before in Star Trek. We saw fighters; we say tons of ships (ships that sole propose could not be exploration). Maybe we should called them something else if that is what is making everyone mad.

[Roy Cowan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flecha:

The point of Roy about using sometimes the main characters in ground combat for the drama is good, very good. However, I remember several Voyager episodes in which the characters -mostly Chakotay, curiosly- get engaged in some alien-world-withouth-space-travel's ground war that resembles our current world's wars in terms of uniforms, weapons, despair, and the like. From those episodes we can see that that kind of war is hated by the Trek franchise, is dirty and despicable.
</font>

Hey, I didn't say that Starfleet would like it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
(SNIP)
Thus, the unsavory task of aplying phisical force and (blegh!) violence goes to the security branch -which, by the way has other duties, including scientific research and which are, like any other Starfleet officer, first and foremost, explorers-; but when the need arises, that task is too performed by any other officer whatever his or her branch.
</font>

FWIW, there are numerous historical precedents for "citizen-soldiers", people who were not part of the military proper, but had some basic training and could be called up in an emergency.

Indeed, the Roman general Cincinnatus preferred being a farmer. He'd take up the uniform to defend Rome, and ultimately refused the title of Emperor after his greatest victory to go back to what he loved and felt was his best contribution -- farming.

It wouldn't be out of line to suggest that such a thing might be Starfleet's traditional manner of addressing military action -- giving their personnel the basic training to defend themselves and undertake necessary military actions, particularly in the security branches and in command capacities, but not having a standing offensive force as such.

As per the Rapid Reaction Force, there would still be personnel with advanced training in military tactics and combat, just as there are personnel who specialize in engineering, science, medicine, etc.. Some of them would remain with dedicated reaction forces such as the various planets' perimeter defense fleets. Others would serve throughout the fleet as advisors and commanders in relevant roles such as security and operations officers and be called back into dedicated combat groups if necessary.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
at first, there shouldn't be any "internal" menaces in the UFP, as per Star Trek axiom-; </font>

Maybe, maybe not. Some have been introduced (the attempted sabotage of the peace treaty between the Fedeartion and the Empire at Khitomer, the Maquis, the attempted coup on Earth, the terrorist movements on Vulcan and Risa), but it could be argued that these only occurred when Gene Roddenberry wasn't involved in the production (he was still alive for the fifth and sixth movies, but considered them apocryphal) and thus didn't fit into his vision.

Whether they fit into ours for running the game is entirely up to us, of course. It is only polite to state your assumptions, though, so everyone else understands your position.

Personally, I think a little conflict is a good thing, dramatically, but I'm getting off-topic here.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
do you really thing that a real military organization would permit the familiarity in that trait between officers at the bridge, as we have seen? Let me laugh: HEH, HEH,
HEH!-,
</font>

Actually, many professional units such as the SAS promote familiarity in certain ways, because it fosters team unity and communication.

One example would be the regular pub meetings the SAS have where ranks are dropped, everyone goes by their first name, and basically anything goes. It allows people to discuss mistakes and problems and generally clear the air without allowing ranks to get in the way.

A common shared (and mostly unstated) assumption is that you demonstrated a certain amount of discipline to get to that spot in the first place, so you don't have to keep demonstrating it by making sure your shoes are shined. There's an old saying that goes, "inspection-ready units can't pass combat and combat-ready units can't pass inspection."

This is not to say that formal regulation or the chain of command doesn't exist, but rather that the people involved are trusted to know where the lines are rather than strictly adhering to them for nothing more than propriety's sake.

We see this quite a bit among the command staff of the Enterprise. Sometimes, formal addresses are dropped when familiarity is appropriate, and at other times they're rigidly adhered to because it is appropriate to the situation (my favorite example being the time Picard entered Worf's cabin to find out why he was late for duty and when he started mumbling from the bed about being ill-at-ease -- Picard promptly shouted, "On your feet, lieutenant!" He was willing to make allowances for personal problems, but he made it clear let them interfere with assigned responsibilities).

-- Roy

[CaptainGonzalez]

I my campaign, after several lenghtly discussions, we came up with a good compromise. At a player's suggestion, the UFP ground forces are called the Planetary Defense Force, nicknamed the Marines because they sail the seas not the stars.

The PDF was created by Tellar, Alpha Centauri IV and Earth to provide for defense to colonies and homeworlds, much like the Andorian Defense Force and the V'ket.

PDF troops are assigned to at least two tours of duty on a planet foreign to them, which has helped increase cultural understanding and unified the members worlds. Federation citizens have seen tellarite troops fighting alongside humans in defense of bolian colonies.

The PDF trains troops for survival in a vareity of environments and does stress martial skills. But troop deploment is strictly defensive in nature. Skills in piloting atmospheric craft as well ground vehicles and water craft replace starship helm and navigation skills.

PDF officers assist in planing for the security of member worlds and sometimes act as colonial governors until a local government can be established. PDF troops act as guards on Federation offices and strategic locations. PDF doctors and medics provide oversee the health care of Federation citizens on planets as close to Federation HQ as Mars and as far away as the Gamma Quadrant.

The undeclared mission of the Marines is provide a positive image of diversity and mutual cooperation to all member planets. They are often the only official face of the Federation seen by some member worlds and colonies as Starfleet ships can't be everywhere or even if they are in the system are kept in space by their mission. The image of a vulcan, andorian, human, tellarite or bolian in a crisp red tunic with his rank emblems glistening in the sun is one that has inspired many boys and girls to enlist and serve the UFP.

The PDF is an autonomous but attached service of Starfleet. PDF officers and enlisted men often work with or supplement Starfleet security officers. In joint operations PDF troops take orders from any Starfleet officer of equal or greater rank. Likewise the Andorian, Vulcan, Bolian and, most recently, Bajoran military remains independent but answers to PDF chain of command in matters concerning interplanetary security and deployment.

A detachment of PDF troops was rejected by the settlers on Setlik III, with disasterous results. Later in the war platoons were dispatched to every single Federation colony world along the Cardassian front, often stopping Cardassian forces from wiping out entire populations but too often figthing to the last man to defend a planet.

After the establishment of the DMZ many PDF officers and enlisted men were approached to join the Maquis. Not one single PDF trooper, active or retired, joined forces with the freedom fighters. While they sympathized with their plight, they remained faithful to the oath they took to remain ever faithful to the principles of the Federation.

During Dominion War the PDF lost almost 3,000 men in a failed defense of Betazed, but was able to hold off a combined Jem Ha'dar and Breen attack on Aldea with only 300 men even though they were outnumbered 3 to 1.

In my campaign the PDF wear red uniforms. The regular duty uniform is the one used on STNG. (I use this to explain why in the DS9 episode "Rapture" a guard wearing the STNG uniform stands at attention in the room where Bajoran officials are about to sign the membership treaty.) The dress uniform is the red tunic and white turtleneck used during STII-VI. This was a nod to the marine's past. (Which I use to explain why a Col. West plans the planetary assault of Rura Penthe) And the combat uniform is the black tunic with a red stripe across the chest seen on DS9.

Well that my 2,000 cents. Any comments would be appreciated.

[This message has been edited by CaptainGonzalez (edited 04-03-2001).]

[Cessna]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flecha:
From those episodes we can see that that kind of war is hated by the Trek franchise, is dirty and despicable.</font>

If war is so hated by the Trek franchise, why are there so many wars in the Trek franchise? (Federation vs. Romulans. Federation vs. Klingons. Federation vs. Cardassia. Federation vs. Dominion. Federation vs. Breen.) (It seems like the Federation just can’t pass up a good war.)

I’ll stand by my previous point: Star Trek is a TV show, and TV shows thrive on drama and conflict. TrekRPG is a game, and games are based on conflict. Both of these conditions make war a subject for stories…

One thing to consider is that war isn’t always voluntary. You can’t always choose to avoid war. (In Star Trek, there are just too many Klingons running around to avoid wars forever.) As a result of this “realpolitik,” it would be irresponsible to be unable to protect yourself or your people. Sure, your military can be given an entirely defensive mission (as I always pictured Starfleet) but sometimes they’re just going to have to fight… and when it comes down to it, they should be able to fight well, to get it over with as quickly as possible with minimal pain for everyone involved.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flecha:
Add to this the fact that, for all we have seen, the Starfleet personel at Starfleet outposts and bases, space or ground, is exactly the same personel that on any starship -and the LUGTrek game(s) support this fully; please, review-, the organizational structure of Starfleet is the same everywhere you look at. Thus, the unsavory task of aplying phisical force and (blegh!) violence goes to the security branch -which, by the way has other duties, including scientific research and which are, like any other Starfleet officer, first and foremost, explorers-; but when the need arises, that task is too performed by any other officer whatever his or her branch. And please, note again that everywhere you look at, ships or bases (spacebound or groung), the Starfleet officers are always the same, with the same branches: command, science, engineering, medical, security and operations. Well, and the counselors. For all we have seen (and by logic), all Starfleet officers aren't separated by forces; they are a unity. </font>

Granted. But who says that “Marines/Ground Forces” aren’t just another branch? I always pictured them as pretty much “just another Starfleet officer-type,” but with a different specialty. Instead of fixing engines, they learn how to shoot phaser rifles. Maybe they’re an “elite subgroup” of the Security forces?

I realize that is silly to arguer whether there are or aren’t “marines” in star Trek. My point is that:
1. I think that there is a legit place for “marines” in the Trek universe.
2. I think that their mission could be completely consistent with Star Fleet’s professed pacifism, and
3. A complete lack of “marines” in Trek is, to me, unbelievable.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flecha:
-at first, there shouldn't be any "internal" menaces in the UFP, as per Star Trek axiom-;</font>

I’ve got to disagree here. What about that whole “Maquis” thing? What about the Orions of TOS? Seems like the Federation has plenty of internal problems, despite its axioms…

Ya know, Star Trek seems to make a lot of “axioms” that end up broken more often than followed. Just look at the Prime Directive…!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flecha:
do you really thing that a real military organization would permit the familiarity in that trait between officers at the bridge, as we have seen? Let me laugh: HEH, HEH, HEH!-, </font>

Have you served in the military? After the initial “bootcamp” stuff, the actual working atmosphere is not all yelling and screaming and saluting. I can certainly believe that senior officers on long-term deployments would be “familiar” and friendly with each other. Military people aren’t automatons. They’re people. They’d relax. If something happened, they’d “snap back” into non-familiar mode. But otherwise they’d relax.

That’s TRUE discipline. Not mindless obedience, but being able to think and carry out orders when it is necessary.

Just my $0.02...

[JALU3]

Captain . . . your posting is almost the end all be all of all the postings on this string to date . . . shoot . . . you just might have killed it. But not if I have anything to do with it

In my game there are Marines . . . however their origins differ from yours in major aspect. That is the FMC didn't come into it's own until after the Dominion war. Prior to the Dominion war each member, as is very well excepted, maintained its own defense force beyond Starfleet.

Within some of those defense forces were "ground troops" that were trained and maintained by those member planets who had them. Thus fighting doctorine, equipment, and even uniforms differed. However, during a state of war, members of the federation could or may be ordered to FEDeralize their forces to help out with the war effort. This was done on only several occassions prior the Dominion War.

In the Dominion War this was once again the case. But unlike prior conflicts this one had the ability to be all ending (the fall of the federation), therefore large numbers and entire Defense Forces were federalized. However, due to differences in equipment, training, and command structures early on during the war some units weren't compatiable with each other and efficency was noticably low in some cases.

Therefore, after the war ended it was noted that a permanent force should be established that could be supplemented from the previously established by Defense Forces of the members. Furthermore, with the more militant leadership, Starfleet was more accepting of the idea.

Thus the FMC was officially established 4 months after the war had finally ended. Created from those units that the members volunteered the FMC was organized with its Headquarters @ Mars (this was partially due to the fact that the only defense forces that the Earth & Mars maintained itself was a naval and a ground force. And that ground force was volunteered completely to the newly established FMC).

Since then the FMC has taken over the duties that the Security Branch would have otherwise done on, and in orbit of, Mars, outer worlds, and duties within the Cardassian Union. Furthermore, a very small contingency is carried by most vessels for activities that would require their experties.

There uniform is very much like the normal duty fatiges worn since First Contact but they include a green strip of cloth below they grey section. The use the same rank system as Starfleet (with the pips) but have different titles (taken almost directly from modern day USArmy. Thus no gunnies, however Lance corpreal has replaced PFC). Unit Patches are not authorized unless given special permission by the Commendant ( equivelent to a Full Admiral).

FMC is an attached and a dependent part of Starfleet. It is not uncommon to see MC CAPTs command SF ENS or SF LTs command 2LTs.

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"See Everything; overlook a great deal; correct a little." -Pope John XXIII

[toadkiller]

My game also has Marines, but I've never had a PC marine. I have kept them in the background on purpose, and there hasn't been much player interest.

I use them like this:

Each planet is expected to field a "local defense force" for systems like Terra this is a pretty big deal with planet based phasers, warp capable "cutters" and fairly heavily armed monitors, etc. These assets have responsibity for local defense, local "coast guard" duties, and manning some space stations - in emergencies a SF ship Captain can command these forces, regardless of relative rank. For systems that can't afford the man power or resources to field such a force the Fed's will step in and provide "coast guard" services via SF and ground defense troops if needed during times of conflict. Local forces cannot leave their "sphere of responsibility" without UFP approval (devolved to the SF starship Captain in extreme cases).

The Marine's role is to provide that support and to be the "core" of the UFP's ground forces. During peacetime they are responsible for training the local defense forces and keeping them interacting with their peers on other worlds. During conflicts or times of tension they augment (or replace) local defenses.

So - a system like Terra would have a small cadre of Marines who provide expert consultation for the fairly extensive local forces.

A small colony along the neutral zone might have a (semi) permanent detactment of marines providing local defense that would be increased during crisis times.

An ally like Bajor might also be able to receive training, and in very specific situations augmentation.

Rarely are the Marines used in an offensive way - only in a declared war to seize control of specific objectives designed to end the war more quickly. To do so there are relatively small amounts of space to ground landing assets.

In addition, Marines might be used as special guard units to garrison outposts or stations of particular concern. They are expected and outfitted to be a "heavier" unit than SF security.

Like the USMC they are a "junior" service to their USN equivilant, Star Fleet - unlike them they have their own service academy and operate much more independently.

Non-emergency Marine travel in typically on contracted passenger/cargo transports that can be "federalized" with SF crews in wartime. Also Marines can in some instances command small space stations, but nothing approaching a "starbase" or "deep space" size.

In joint operations the senior member is in charge (regardless of whether they are SF or Marine) but typically the ship Captain is in charge of the mission right up until the Marines set foot on the ground.

The relationship between the services has in the past been somewhat strained, but was regarded as very positive during the Dominion War (my game is a couple of years post war now).

I guess they haven't been that far in the background after all - but then my game predates LUG Trek

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TK

[This message has been edited by toadkiller (edited 04-06-2001).]

[Anarchy Bob]

Okay, since this thread seems mature and friendly enough for me to take notice of for once.

I'm gonna ask a question that surely has been beaten to death but eh... What do you people make of COLONEL West from The Undiscovered Country? He wore a Starfleet uniform and presented to the president what looked to me like starcharts and fleet movements. (His operation retrieve or what not)

[Phantom]

I've never been able to figure out the Col. West situation myself. My first thoughts were "maybe a marine" or "Army" officer. Which would have been a first for ST. Also, maybe SF has/had a special forces branch that uses army/marine rank structure. After all if there is a completely ground based military in SF, those navy ranks would just have to go.

[Roy Cowan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
I've never been able to figure out the Col. West situation myself. My first thoughts were "maybe a marine" or "Army" officer. Which would have been a first for ST.</font>

I think if he'd been part of a different organization he'd have a different uniform.

It is interesting to note that the C-in-C, Admiral Cartwright, and Col. West (IIRC) all had salad bars on their uniform, an addition that hasn't appeared on them before or since, to my knowledge.

I suspect that standing armies might be a part of each world's local defense system, but that Starfleet would probably go the marine route simply because any Starfleet troops would be operating with other Starfleet branches to such a strong degree that they'd probably have to be part of a common organization just for the sake of efficiency.

-- Roy

[Phantom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roy Cowan:
I think if he'd been part of a different organization he'd have a different uniform.

It is interesting to note that the C-in-C, Admiral Cartwright, and Col. West (IIRC) all had salad bars on their uniform, an addition that hasn't appeared on them before or since, to my knowledge.[QUOTE]

Uniforms can be deceptive. As has been stated here the "marine" duty uniform is similar to fleet, only with padding.

The Uniforms Admiral Cartwright and Col. West would have been wearing would have have been class-A uniform Dress Uniforms most of which in todays militaries have the salad bars on them. As ST progressed into the TNG era it became less "militant" so they seem to stick their medals in cases and hang them on the wall. Personally I think it a rather silly idea...If I won the VC I'd wear it to bed.

[toadkiller]

I agree about the medals - but they are a fairly recent invention, and maybe go out of fashion? I've noticed that some non-US militaries don't seem to be into them.

"Col." West could be a 'staff POG', meaning he is a Marine or whatever but is in charge of briefing the Admiral on a variety of topics (thus the SF charts), these days those sorts of jobs are handed out regardless of service. Also Marines might have to wear conform to SF uniform policy when working at HQ. (Currently Navy folks working with the Marines [US] may wear Marine uniforms, though it doesn't go the other way).



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TK

[Phantom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by toadkiller:
I agree about the medals - but they are a fairly recent invention, and maybe go out of fashion? I've noticed that some non-US militaries don't seem to be into them.[QUOTE]

I take it you mean a new additon to SF. You seem to have forgotten TOS ep. like "Court Martial" in which Kirk, Spock and the others had decorations on their uniforms...Not to mention Kirk's list of "tin" that was read off, that guy must be the highest awarded person in SF. Most of the medals/dcorations in TNG came from TOS.

[JALU3]

See you all . . . be back on 16APR01. Spring break.

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"See Everything; overlook a great deal; correct a little." -Pope John XXIII