24th Century Flame thrower

[Eric R.]

OK, this is for the Ground Force/Marine crowd so be warned.

Now then has anybody put any thought to a trek version of the flame thrower? Just about every heavy specialized weapon of the 20th century has so far recieved a 24th century equivalent and I was wondering if anybody has come up with someting yet?

Ok I see the following reasons such a weapon still exist in the 24th century:

1.) To eliminate Enemy fixed positions with a heavy use of Psychological terror mixed in, especially against Jm'hadr.

2.) Clear heavy areas of natural vegitation on undeveloped worlds and cause enemy sensors to be temporaily (very temporary) disrupted by the heat generated.

Any Ideas?

[Caitian Tourist]

Although, any well-equiped military organization would see the value of such a weapon, one that is so concerned with image, and doesn't have military goals as its primary concern, such as Starfleet, doesn't seem like the kind of people to have one. After all, think back to the TNG carbine they jokingly called a "rifle." Against fixed positions, I'd say a phaser on wide beam setting set to high thermal would do the same thing. As for clearing vegitation, I'm sure with all the scientific/medical technobabble present, they've come up with a non-toxic defoliant that's even more effective. Not to say the idea of a flame thrower has no place in the 24th century. I could easily see the Romulans or perhaps even the Klingons or Breen having them. Starfleet Ground Forces just doesn't seem like the kind of people to use such an honestly gruesome (and anyone who's seen images of people killed with flamethrowers can back me on that) weapon. Just my $0.02.

[Cybrludite]

Seems to me that the sci-fi weapon to fit that niche would be some sort of heavy plasma bolt. Oddly enough, I could see some pacifist group arguing that such weapons should be standard issue because of the horrible nature of its effects on the target. After all, it's easy to shoot someone if they just end up as a cloud of monoatomic vapor from a high powered phaser shot. A gruesome charred corpse would remind the shooter of just what they've done. (Not trying to go political here, just floating ideas...)

[Phoenix]

Plasma Streamer- sceen in a Voyager episode where Chakotay was rescued from a shuttle crash by the group of X-borg. Someone used it to drive people away from the crash site, looked cool, had a short range (6-7 meters at best), and was bulky.

Now for my thoughts on this subject- A phaser duplicated every aspect of the WWII era flame thrower, at lower settings even. As a bonus you do not become target number one on the battle field like you would have in WWII.

[Balok]

I expect it would be something along the lines of the FGMP (fusion gun, man portable) or PGMP (plasma gun, man portable) from Traveller.

These devices, which in that game require the user to wear an armored exoskeleton to control the recoil, emit a stream of plasma. The trek versions probably do not require this, as we have seen no evidence that ground wars are fought by troops wearing any kind of personal armor (which is unrealistic, given *current* developments along those lines -- but that's another thread).

Doubtless the plans for these devices exist, so that they can be replicated quickly if tacticians see a need. But as others have pointed out, it is unlikely they will be used often.

Such a device would have a devastating field of field, vaporizing targets at close range, and causing fires and severe burns even at longer ranges. However, it would have relatively few shots (because of the power), and might even be a two man weapon. Its use would be tactically limited because of the damage it does -- a case of the advantage being also a disadvantage.

[calguard66]

With respect to the previous posters, many seem to be missing the point as to WHY a flamethrower was effective. A phaser cannot duplicate it's effects, a plasma/ fusion weapon possibly so... if the weapon has a "splash" effect.

Flamethrowers shoot a stream of flamable liquid or semi-liquid at their target area. They are area-effect weapons and can "shoot around corners" in a sense. The fuelk stream is not completely consumed in firing. Much of it collects at the target point forming a puddle or leaking into bunker firing slits or armored vehicle hatches or access pannels. This is what allows the weapon to be fired at a small target such as a bunker firing slit and clear out the bunker... it is eventually simply filled with a puddle of burning fuel. A secondary effect is that oxegen is removed from the space, so even if you manage to avoid the fuel (say by shutting an interior door) the oxegen in you bunker or vehicle is used by the fire and you suffocate. This effect also works on armored vehicles, by setting fire to the entire exterior oxegen is drawn out of the vehicle. Lastly, with regard to armored vehicles, it is possible to cook the crew inside a low-tech vehicle by getting the hull hot enough... this also may cause fuel or ammunition explosions.

So, you have to decide which of these effects can be duplicated by what sci-fi weapons system... and which would be negated by technology. For example, the "cooking the crew" option is virtually impossible on a modern main battle tank, however sucking out the oxegen by setting the surface aflame might work depending on the type of tank, and most would be vulnerable to burning fuel in their engine compartment, which would disable the tank tho it probably wouldn't kill the crew outright.

Lastly, you have to decide if your Starfleet, and it's allies and opponents, would employ such technology. Normally I'm and advocate of a "realistic" Starfleet that doesn't tie it's own hands (ideals are useless if you are defeated)... however, the US currently has no petrolium-based flame weapons in it's inventory thanks to post-Vietnam public opinion. The closest thing is an air-delivered fuel-air explosive munition, which has some of the effects, but isn't really a flame weapon.

In TV Trek I see the Breen and possibly the Romulans as major players who might employ a flamerthrower type weapon. In realTrek everybody but the Federation probably has them.

[strict31]

Hey, if you wanna put flamethrowers in Star Trek, please feel free. Or to use a sci-fi techno-creation to simulate a 24th century equivelent. But there is something to be said in canon for the philosophy of Trek's weaponry. In canon it doesn't exist and wouldn't. Starfleet (and any attendant military branches they are likely to have) wouldn't use a weapon whose primary value in the era of 24th century weapon technology would be terror. It is entirely contrary to what Starfleet is all about.

Battlefield practicality: I don't have a problem with that argument. Fitting a cloaking device on the Defiant was (mostly) practical. And against the Dominion, the needs of practicality outweighed the need for a personable, non-threatening Starfleet. I can buy that. But the thing is, while a phaser or similar weapon might not have the splash and pooling capabilities of a flamethrower, it doesn't really need them. A phaser on a high enough setting can burn through obstacles that a flamethrower would need to splash over or around. And phasers on high settings tend to vaporize things in their path and the stuff behind those things. This counters any value gained by pooling or leaking.

And if you have a hardened or shielded target that a phaser cannot penetrate, a flame thrower isn't likely to have any measurable effect. I mean, logically, in the 24th century, bunkers and that sort of thing are likely to be shielded. Personally, I have a hard time believing a flamethrower or similar type of splash weapon would have any measurable effect on a shielded target, but since we've never seen that, it's up to the GM to decide.


Strictly Speaking

[capnhayes]

Starfleet already does, its called a phaser III, setting 12 wide angle.

[Kaiddin]

Isn't it the Ringworld books that mentions the flamer as a banned weapon?

[Tobian]

Assside from the ethical considerations I can't see a practical use for the weapon.

ok going on the various points. What use would a psychological weapon be against the Jem Hadar? They are more or less un-phaseable, largelly because they don't have a problem with dying for their gods. Sure they have a survival instinct which stops them from doing REALLY dum things but they constantly throw themselves into situations that are extremelly dangerous - hence fear is not a tool which would be useful.

There are several other weapons that replicate the other uses of the weapon. The point about Phasers is they are FLEXIBLE - you have wide beam, long range, burst fire, stun, kill, vapourise, cut through doors, heat rocks in the cold, vapourise lage chunks of building, set to overload, and only work for authorise users - tell me any tool today that can do all of those things and I will call you a Liar ! - they also do something which modern weapons singularly cannot do and that is deal with futuristic shielding an alloys. A hand phaser can cut through shields eventually (especially the larger one's ) and can cut through futuristic alloys - our weapons such as a flamethrower are pointless against such things... Even a basic shuttlepod could happily shield someone, without their deflector shields, from the heat of a flamethrower as it is made of alloys which can withstand the heat of a stars coronoshpere (for a very short period!) and high level, starship, energy weapons.

In the vietnam type environment you remove the jungle to take away the enemies places to hide, as well as causing ecological damage (removing possible crops etc too) - but with the advent of technologies such as the tricorder, or perhaps orbital scanning technology (it could just be a probe letalone a full starship!) that's kind of rendered obsolete to a certain extent.. Yes you have counter sensor technology such as cloaking devices but they they generally come atatched to starships - and that's a whole kettle of fish - there are again hand held technology, such as thorium generators, which can mask your signature.. but then you scan for throium

A plasma based equivalent could again be used, but by diffusing it you're remove it's potential for damage..

Shooting round corners.. well they do have things such a stun grenades, operating as a phaser would, which is allot cleaner! These can also be made to be resueable too, and they have the advantage that with 24th century ident technology they won't work for the ememy

I can see other cultures using such weapons, but they they would be facing off against more advanced technology. there is the possiblity a dampening field could also render chemical or plasma based weapons innefective, as their emmission isn't coherent enough to cut through it.

Style wise, sure, why not, but tactically they do have allot more effective tools already.

[Eric R.]

Well after a good month, good ideas and positions this is what I have come to the conculsion about this idea. I had started this thread becuase I was seriously considering the idea of a standard issued flamethrower for Starfleet Ground Force Engineers (Pioneers actually). The weapon would have been filded during the later stages of the Dominion War to rout out tough pockets of resistance of both Cardassian and Jem'hadr holdouts. But it has never really sat well with me either as being a standard issued weapon from Starfleet. The idea that the Romulans or the Klingons might use it gives the option that SFGF might have used it where they could get their hands on one.

So my decision is that yes it will be included in my sometime in the future (future to be determined later) to be finished Ground Force source book. However it will likely be a Romulan model which saw extensive use by SFGF in the later part of the war when many in the ranks wanted the enemy to suffer and see them suffer and not be granted a quick vaporized death. Its a dark concept I know afterall Trek humans are suppose to be above such motives but hey were talking about a ground force source book which is a pretty dark topic for trek in the first place here.

[Eric R.]

and . . .

I am VERY happy at how this conversation stayed so civil and thoughtful, it could have been a very bad expierence but it didn't because of the individuals who responed and I thank you all.

So now, any ideas on States (both ICON and CODA) and game rules on the Romulan weapon?

[Tobian]

I think there could be a case for the Jem hadar to use such a weapon given that the Dominion don't respect the various mutual weapons test bans etc - the flimsy (read paper thin) test ban treaties that several of the major powers have - for example the Romulans Klingons and Federation have a treaty banning both polaric based weapons and energy sources and subspace weaponry for their respective reasons.

The Dominion are quite happy to use scare tactics on the battlefield. I recall the epsiode where Jadzia is shot with an anticoagulant in her leg and almost bleeds to death, which is carried in the Jem Hadar weapon she is hit with - is a really nasty slow death weapon (for those unprepared for it) and they use biological warfare, plaguing entire worlds as punishment.. so a flamethrower is not a huge step in the wrong direction.

Also the Cardassians are overlooked. I can see a mental image of a cardassian standing over the burning rubble of a Bajoran city, mowing down innocent civilians and freedom fighters with a flame thrower. They are often portrayed as energy poor so perhaps lower tech weapons, with a high 'scare' factor would be used (it's far easier to replicate flametrhowers than phaser crystals) - the cardassians are very much one's to use blatant fear tactics to cow their populace.

Personally I can't see the Romulans doing that myself. I tend to see them as more of an honourable race, and they do have a little respect for 'human rights' - their 'fear' tends to come more from a more subtle approach of paranoia and shadows that lurk round the street corner than the iron fist of Cardassia - while they may have broken with the Federation on such things, during the dominion war I can't see them using such weapons simply because they were allied to the Federation at the time.

The Klingons equally in the 24th century are very honour oriented and prefer to do more hand to hand and more 'clean' disruptor weapons. 23rd century Klingons out and about and conquoring all over the place - yeah I can imagine that, they are a very different animal, somewhat freed from their honour concepts in that era (as well as their face ridges )

Personally I am not a fan of the concept of Starfleet 'Marines' - but I still recongnise the fact that Starfleet would have diverse operations and specialists for any type of mission. While I can't get past the 'marines' word as a semantic, there would be NonComm officers who are little more than 'soldiers' in the field - as equally as they would be security guards and prison guards etc - I also suspect that Starfleet would have drawn in a number of home guard detatchements, such as the Andorian or Vulcan defence forces (or others) into it's ranks for some operations from pure losses during the conflict - the other sense of the word 'Marine' - Non starfleet merchant marines and allied ships would possibly have also had their services paid for or even volunteer to help (cassidy yates type people who loved the Federation enough to help make a difference) - while they might not be in invasion fleets they would be invaluable to bolster supply lines etc!

As for rules Hmm - how about you just keep it simple - create an overlay of a cone assign the centre as 'chemical fire' (NG 229) then just use the phaser charts - 'heavy thermal' - then the outer parts step down as 'medium thermal' and 'light thermal' - or MISS - then it keeps is simple to remember what the damages are etc. Because it's fire you're then going to have the problem of things catching allight. People will have to make some kind of agility or quickness roll to put themselves out - or suffer 'fire' damage (same page) - and it's it's 'sticky' then they have a big problem - the same page has details on fire damage, asphyxiation and vacuum effects too, so that should be sufficient.

[strict31]

I'd be willing to bet that the Romulans have a lot of weapon technologies that they developed and researched but never fielded for various reasons. But the Dominion War may have seen some of those technologies roll out onto the battlefield. Like that radiation destructo-thingee (a technical term, I assure you) in Nemesis.

Additionally, I have an idea for a 24th century flamethrower. It's piss-poor science, but since it's Trek, it doesn't need to be realistic. I just don't have the time to post it now. Maybe I'll PM you later.


Strictly Speaking