Samurai and Klingons

[redwood973]

Did anyone else here see the show Japan: Memoirs of a Secret Empire last week on public television?

During the show all I could think about is how much like the samurai the Klingons are. And seeing a samurai get into his armor made me see how much the Klingon armor is like that of the samurai.

Wish I had recorded it.

Edit: Hay I just realized. . .as of last month I have been here for three years! Wow. . .doesn't seem like that long.

[Uruz]

IMHO the Klingons started out as being the Red Menace (TOS), and once that societal concept became less a concern in society the TNG writers put a new spin on things. I consider them a fusion of Russian and Japanese cultures, myself.

Forgive the stereotyping, of course.

[The Midnighter]

Actually, I see the Klingons as a fusion of Japanese samurai and Norse Viking warrior cultures...

And the parallel of Japanese and Klinogn armors are pretty much on the money...dressing in full Imperial armor...wow...

[Owen E Oulton]

While there are undeniable Japanese elements to Klingon culture, the Viking element was an explicit influence. One major difference is that in Klingon culrure, everyone is a warrior. This was an element of Viking culture, and definitely not true of Japanese culture, where the majority of the population were peasants.

[Tas II]

While there are undeniable Japanese elements to Klingon culture, the Viking element was an explicit influence. One major difference is that in Klingon culrure, everyone is a warrior. This was an element of Viking culture, and definitely not true of Japanese culture, where the majority of the population were peasants.

There are definite parallels with the Vikings......Da'har Masters=Skalds? I think so....

Cheers

Tas

[REG]

Originally posted by Owen E Oulton

While there are undeniable Japanese elements to Klingon culture, the Viking element was an explicit influence. One major difference is that in Klingon culrure, everyone is a warrior. This was an element of Viking culture, and definitely not true of Japanese culture, where the majority of the population were peasants.

During the Warring State Period, many peasants of taken up arms and become ashigaru or foot soldiers of clan's army. And before the Tokugawa dynasty, samurai during peacetime usually are farmers before they have taken government official positions within the Shogunate (bakufu).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course, if you ask me, one can argue they are also influenced by the Mongols.

[Ezri's Toy]

This discussion sounds familiar. . . only the last time I had it, it was "What influences inspired the Jedi Knights ?" Everyone at first said "Vikings;" Then some said "Samurai." And me, having a different take, I said "Shaolin monks." Of course, you could split the difference between samurai and Shaolin and say "Sohei monks" . . . although the feudal period Sohei were decidedly less spiritual than the Shaolin or Jedi. . . .

[Phoenix]

I'd say Scandinavian Viking, with hints from other more imperialistic sources as the Vikings were warrior raiders, minor explorers, and as needed traders. I cannot recall a single large scale, long term conquest the Vikings successfully participated in for the qualifier of an empire.

Besides, there is/was a more spiritual side to the Samurai, besides I really don't think there is any thing close to Bushido in Klingon culture.

[Kaiddin]

Originally posted by Phoenix
I'd say Scandinavian Viking, with hints from other more imperialistic sources as the Vikings were warrior raiders, minor explorers, and as needed traders. I cannot recall a single large scale, long term conquest the Vikings successfully participated in for the qualifier of an empire.

Depends on how you define Empire .
The Norsemen extended their conquests to Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, Scotland, England, Northern France, Russia, Sicily and (depending on what PBS show you are watching) North America.
Vikings are no more a race than pirates were. To go i viking was to simply go raiding. Norsemen and viking are not interchangable.

[Tobian]

Same old steryiotypes trawled out again ! You're never going to get any one culture to fit bewcause otherwise they would have been called 'Space vikings' on the show now wouldn't they!

The Vikings are an interesting culture - They are fierce and vicious culture but they were never really set on conquest as they could simply take what they wanted and no one wanted to try and take it back! That said the Normans are descendants of Vikings and they conqured britain. The Vikings technically captured northern england around York and made it into a kingdom.. it's just they largelly did this by simply having a large enough presence and becoming kings rather than by martial battle. the Vikings i also believe made strong inroads into Russia and many of the family lines of Russian royal families can be traced back to Viking origins - in many ways their 'conquests' were allot more inteligent and political than their popular steryotypes would have us believe

[Jem'hadar]

I've seen a similar debate on earlier thread. Personally, I always thought of Klingons more like Vikings than samurai, although I do see a parallel to the latter. Certainly, both Klingons and Japanese samurai value honor even more than life. Of course, samurai were also expected to have absolute obedience to their lord, who could order them to commit suicide if he chose. While Klingon warriors are loyal to their respective House and the Empire, I don't see them having the same kind of absolute obedience to their leaders.

It's acceptable for a Klingon subordinate to assassinate or challenge his captain, esp. if the captain showed cowardice in battle. If the challenger succeeds, then he or she can take command. But samurai would never dare challenge their superiors. They wouldn't hesitate to duel rivals of their own social grade, but would never, or at least weren't supposed to, duel with their leaders for command.

But one striking parallel is the way feudal Japanese lords battled each other in the same way various Klingon houses battle each other & have their own private armies. Actually, I'm surprised the Klingons ever became an empire. While they are without a doubt aggressive, they spend so much time combating w/ one another that I'm amazed they ever united into a stellar nation.

It wasn't until Japan did away with the samurai and formed a modern national army and a strong central govt, that they started to become a real empire. I would think the same thing would have to had happened in Klingon history but I've never seen such events mentioned in any episode.

[The Midnighter]

Originally posted by Phoenix
Besides, there is/was a more spiritual side to the Samurai, besides I really don't think there is any thing close to Bushido in Klingon culture.

Sorry, but I must disagree here.

A Klingon's dedication to honor is part and parcel of his makeup. Take away his honor, and like a samurai, a Klingon would rather die.

[Phoenix]

Midnighter-
Loss of ones honor is not the same as the bushido code, yes a Klingon would rather die than live in shame as would most of the people from Feudal Japan (even today, to a lesser extent). The Code of Bushido demanded absolute loyalty to your lord, regardless. If you lord asked you for your sword hand to mount on his wall, you gave it to him, gift wrapped. If he wanted you to die, you take your life then and there, no debate no options, however if your lord wanted to crush the guy you owe your life savings to 'good bye debit'. Honor was a Japan thing, Bushido was a Samurai (and others) thing.

Kaiddin-
I know the term Viking is a job description that's why I said 'Scandinavian Viking'. As far as an empire, going out an finding unclaimed land is not imperialistic it's colony building, the British 100-250 years ago, that was imperialistic activity.
The Noris never tried to conquer the people they co-inhabited with unlike the Spanish, the British, and even the Colonel Americans did with the Native Americans. They converted the indigenous people to their standards, Noris simple moved in to be closer to the plunder so to speak.

[strict31]

Originally posted by Phoenix
Midnighter-
Loss of ones honor is not the same as the bushido code, yes a Klingon would rather die than live in shame as would most of the people from Feudal Japan (even today, to a lesser extent). The Code of Bushido demanded absolute loyalty to your lord, regardless. If you lord asked you for your sword hand to mount on his wall, you gave it to him, gift wrapped. If he wanted you to die, you take your life then and there, no debate no options, however if your lord wanted to crush the guy you owe your life savings to 'good bye debit'. Honor was a Japan thing, Bushido was a Samurai (and others) thing.

But Bushido was about more than just loyalty or honor, though these things are central. It was a lesson in walking the way of the warrior, which is death. There are similarities in Klingon warrior idealogy. Well, i should rather say, "the warrior ideal."

Thing is, I don't think a direct, intact parallel can be made because aliens in our fiction are designed like a salad bar. Take a little bit of this, and a little bit of that...add some of this over here, and leave the rest. I think they take a little bit of Bushido without taking the whole thing.


Strictly Speaking

[The Midnighter]

Originally posted by Phoenix
Midnighter-
Loss of ones honor is not the same as the bushido code, yes a Klingon would rather die than live in shame as would most of the people from Feudal Japan (even today, to a lesser extent). The Code of Bushido demanded absolute loyalty to your lord, regardless. If you lord asked you for your sword hand to mount on his wall, you gave it to him, gift wrapped. If he wanted you to die, you take your life then and there, no debate no options, however if your lord wanted to crush the guy you owe your life savings to 'good bye debit'. Honor was a Japan thing, Bushido was a Samurai (and others) thing.

Klingons swore absolute loyality to a "higher" lord, if you will -- the Empire itself. If the Emoire wanted your lands, they took them. If they wanted you to lend your House's ships to the Fleet, you did so with a smile on your face, knowing you were sacrificing in the name of the Empire.

Klingon warriors were expected to die for the Empire wherever battle took them. If it was in the cold of space or on a planetside, they fought knowing that this may be their day to die -- a mindset shared by the samurai as well, who (according to the Hagakure) faced each day as if it was going to be the day of their death.

There are very strong, if not specific elements of Bushido in the Klingon Way.